- This topic has 11 replies, 8 voices, and was last updated 5 months, 2 weeks ago by .
-
Posts
-
On March first 1945 FDR in his address to Congress on the Yalta conference said the following with regards to German surrender: “Unconditional surrender means something else. It means the end of Nazism. It means the end of the Nazi Party—and of all its barbaric laws and institutions.
It means the termination of all militaristic influence in the public, private, and cultural life of Germany.
It means for the Nazi war criminals a punishment that is speedy and just—and severe.
It means the complete disarmament of Germany; the destruction of its militarism and its military equipment; the end of its production of armament; the dispersal of all its armed forces; the permanent dismemberment of the German General Staff which has so often shattered the peace of the world.”
I would like to propose that Netanyahu plagiarize this language in his address to Congress with the appropriate modifications. With a particular focus on some of these lines from the above except: “It means the end of the Nazi Party—and of all its barbaric laws and institutions.
It means the termination of all militaristic influence in the public, private, and cultural life of Germany.” And “It means the complete disarmament of Germany; the destruction of its militarism and its military equipment; the end of its production of armament; the dispersal of all its armed forces”Had Germany surrendered, conditionally, in July 1944 (as would have happened had Rommel replaced Hitler as Fuhrer had the July 20 putsch been successful), perhaps a million Jewish lives would have been saved. And arguably insistence of unconditional surrendered discouraged many Germans from supporting the various anti-Hitler conspiracies.
Note that had the United States stuck with the demand for unconditional surrender from Japan, American deaths in World War II would have been twice what they were, with the Russians ending up with all of Korea and much of Japan.
Particularly since most Arab states (though maybe not the people, only Lebanon anything the resembles routine free elections and it is ,more of resemblance than the real thing) regard Hamas as a pain in the tuchus,, Israel has room to negotiate something gets the surviving hostages (if any) back, disarms Hamas, and leads to Gaza being controlled by someone who won’t be sponsoring terrorism.
akuperma: Japan did surrender unconditionally.
Regarding Hamas, they do not seem inclined to agree to end the war if they have to give up control of Gaza.
>>>Had Germany surrendered, conditionally, in July 1944 (as would have happened had Rommel replaced Hitler as Fuhrer had the July 20 putsch been successful), perhaps a million Jewish lives would have been saved
Even assuming that assessment is true were HAMAS to surrender conditionally many Jewish lives would be saved too. But they aren’t offering any type of conditional surrender that would come together with an permanent end to hostilities. As such there is no reason not to demand an unconditional surrender from them.
>>>And arguably insistence of unconditional surrendered discouraged many Germans from supporting the various anti-Hitler conspiracies.
Again even if true in the current situation the oppisite. The longer the war continues and the more Gazans suffer the less motive they have to support Hamas in the future. If the war stops and Hamas claims victory (which they will do no matter how it ends – the question is how convincing of a case they can make ) they will have a much easier time recruiting in the future. Both in Gaza and from their foreign supporters. Even Iran and Qatar may have second thoughts before pouring billions more dollars into them if all they can show is the majority of the buildings being destroyed and 40,000 dead Gazans
>>>Israel has room to negotiate something gets the surviving hostages (if any) back, disarms Hamas, and leads to Gaza being controlled by someone who won’t be sponsoring terrorism.
Who are those negotiations supposed to be with? Who that has ability is willing to do so?
Each situation is different. “Harder then winning the war is winning the peace.”
Notice at the end of WWII the Emperor of Japan was left in power. This is because he was considered a G-d by the Japanese people. The Japanese are a very disciplined people that never give up. Without the Emperor telling them the war is over & it’s time for peace American soldiers would’ve faced generations of guerrilla warfare & terror attacks. (Interesting fact, it was a Jewish Navy officer that explained this to the administration who was going to treat Japan like they did the Nazis.)
He was known as U(nconditional) S(urrender) Grant but the Civil War did not end with an unconditional surrender. Grant understood Robert E. Lee was the most respected & valorized leader in the Confederacy. Grant understood if Lee said, “Boys, it’s over. It’s time to go home.” 98% of Confederates would listen & while there was some guerrilla warfare for a short time after the war it was on such a low level that it never posed a threat to the peace.
What works in one scenario doesn’t always work in a different one.@akuperma
You really believe that Hitler YMS would have stuck to his terms of the deal under a conditional surrender? He broke every deal before that including with Russia.. Cmon I have a bridge to sell you if even think that any “conditional deal” would have helped. It only would have extended the war and bloodshed. The last few communities that the rasha missed he would have reached, And the condztions offered included Germany still retaining half of Europe.Japan completely capitulated and I am not sure where you got that anything was conditional.
Re Hamas, you miss the point and in a way they are worse than Germany. Germany was a refined cultured country that got a craz (obviously hashem wanted that but beztem they were refined normal people) Palestianins are influcned by a cult and drink the kool aid. They can’t behave if they wanted to,You think you will disram hamas as long as they are still at all intact? You think hamas will ever let someone “not sponsoring” terror to run the country? They will kill him in a second. Yes Hamas is a pain in the tuchus but they other “peaceful” countries still enable them. Look at Qatar & Turkey. Egypt has this secret pact that Hamas could do whatever they want including smuggling stuff as long as nothing is out in the open within Egypt territory. Don’t forget Egypt is half muslim brotherhood= Hamas. You think you can trust anyone to disarm Hamas? Frankly its a bit naive.
Akuperma, Germans not supporting anti-Hitler conspiracies – a far-off sfeik-sfeik-sfeika argument. When one has no other arguments.
Germans agreeing to a pace agreement, then developing nuclear capabilities, intercontinental missiles and missile defense before US did – would this be a better option? Or, maybe someone learned from Wilsonian WWI fail to “stop all the wars”
1, Japan agreed to surrender only when the United States agreed to leave the Emperor alone, and promised to have a democracy (note that arguably Japan was a constitutional monarchy to begin with, as the elected leaders were calling the shots, and they held a free election during the war with anti-war candidates allowed to run).
2. Had the July 1944 conspiracy worked, and it came close, Hitler would have been dead (meanings his “agreement” to anything would not be an issue, the leadership of Germany would be in prison or dead, and the generals led by Rommel would have been in charge and their plan would have included ending the Holocaust and arresting the Gestapo, and suing for peace). While I tend to think the world was better off with the way it did work out, around a million Jews died during those find 10 months.
Japan surrendered unconditionally.
America letting the Emperor retain his title while stripping him of all power, was out of America’s good will; it was not required under the terms of Japan’s unconditional surrender.
akuperma, interesting theory. One problem: most of those Yidden would have ended up in Soviet area of occupation, and a serious number of them would have ended up simply relocating to GULAG or just resettling in Siberia. Such resettling trips in soviet cattle cars had death rate of 50% just during the trip.
Ujm,
Keeping the Emperor was not out of “Good will” It was out of necessity for a peaceful Japan.
Japanese culture during WWII said you either come back victorious or you die trying. Unless commanded by a higher up you never surrender. The only life that matters is the life of the Emperor. This is how they had Kamikaze pilots. This is why we took so few Japanese POW’s. US soldiers found hundreds of Japanese soldiers that committed suicide together because they were unable to fight but surrender was not an option. The last Japanese soldier to surrender was in 1974!!! Yes, a soldier hid out in the Philippines for almost 30 YEARS after Japan surrendered because he was never ordered to surrender. Even when told he refused to surrender until they found one of his officers who ordered him to surrender.
It’s very different than America but this was their mindset.
If the Japanese people were left leaderless in a culture of “Die trying” & “Never surrender” we’d still have US soldiers dying in Japan.
(If you don’t believe me read about Elias Zacarias, a Jewish Naval Officer from Pensacola, FL, who explained this to the Administration & B’H they listened.)
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.