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@HaKatan
Of course the “mesiras nefesh” of Zionist soldiers does NOT at all make them holy
Thank you for clarifying your radical extreme shita. You should be ashamed and banned from YWN. But ill address it anyhow. You miss the point. The point is you claim that one who is a zionist is automatically a kofer. And he surely isn’t holy. What i am showing you is, that people in the most horrible situation whether you agree with how they got there or not, those people are lamsa being moser nefesh to do mitzvos and learn torah despite being in such a horrible state. (I get that you say its self inflicted but thats not the point). If someone can be so ehlrlich in that situation how can you say that they are a kofer or less jewish? Its just inconcivebale that a kofer would be so moser nefesh for yiddishkiet. It in it of itself proves you wrong.“There is zero source for Zionism in the Torah, as mentioned. Other than people whom the gedolim recognized as deviant,”
False you are a pathological liar. As much as you repeat the same lies I will call them out.
1) R Kook was not devaint. the chafetz chaim walked out on people like you at the 24 convention when he was knocked. Even the famous imeri emes letter states clearly you can’t knock R Kook and it comes from his havas yisroel. The Imeri emes oppsotion wasn’t the idea of zionsim. It was because R Kook cooperated with the secular elements. Tlamidum of R kook and clise friends include R isser zlaman whose son took over R kook, R Elihsyav, the Nazir, Titz Eliezer, R shloma Zalman (The yerushalmis say that r Shloma zalaman didn’t vote because he held of mizrachi over agudah and didn’t want to mix in)
2) The holy rizyna rebas, R shraga Feivel, punivitcha rav all commited actions supporting zionsism.
3) There are a ton of sefraim pro zionsim some written by previous anti zionsts
4) R Menchaim Zemba at the end was pro zionsism
5) R Chtzakel, the steipler, R Aron Lieb all held that one should fight in the army if not learning. There are open letters and teshuvas. Again obviously not kefiraYou are entitled to say that your mesora is that zionsism is evil. But I won’t stand here and let you spread misinformation that other frum jews are less jewsih. Its very in style today, to be a hot head like you. Believe all the misiformation thats one sided that your reba or rebbe feed you. Its baloney. Ill repeat again both zionism and anti zionsism have strong roots in our torah
@Always_Ask_Questions
Halcha Headlines #463 has a PDF of all those mara makomos. Its all there@hakatan
I wrote that satmar rav VAYECHI was daat yachid.
Only he said such extreme that the avera of tsionism was the me’akev of the ge;oula.@chaim87
please quote any real sources to your wild claims. please, name the sefer and the page. otherwise you are just spouting false propaganda and making up fake Torah.@chaim87
Just to be clear, I asked for sources of your claims. I don’t mean from Kasher, who was well shown to be a fraud in promoting the kefira of Zionism. My request is specifically about these shocking claims of yours:
“3) There are a ton of sefraim pro zionsim some written by previous anti zionsts” – If any of these were written by undisputed Gedolai Torah, please let us know.
“5) R Chtzakel, the steipler, R Aron Lieb all held that one should fight in the army if not learning. There are open letters and teshuvas.”
So, if you are not a liar, these two points should be easily proven.Chaim87, don’t get so excited. All you have to do is realize where Hakatan is coming from, and that is that anyone who is or was pro-Zionism is by definition not a Gadol Beyisrael. So the minute you quote a Gadol as being pro-Zionist, in Hakatan’s eyes you have it wrong. Very simple.
@arso
no, you are missing the point. it’s not the Gedolim that obligate us or inform us, it is the Torah that they teach. Anyone who teaches something that is NOT sourced in Torah but claims it is still Torah is a liar, a fraud, and certainly not a Gadol.Of course, real Gedolim explain their psak the Torah sources that obligate us following it.
If you are looking for halachik sources, maybe look at commentaries to Sanhedrin 50.
There is discussion about Yoav touching on relevant issues:
1) do you listen to a King (David) when he urgently need to raise an army against rebels, but would-be soldiers are learning? apparently, you let them finish a masechet.
I did not look deeper, but I guess this could go in different directions:
– learning exempts from the army even if the government orders it
– you do go to the army after you finish masechet … (what if your learning does not end?)
– you do go to the army if you are not currently on a masechet ..2) David and Yoav were successful by mutually assisting each other:
– David is learning and doing justice
– Yoav running the armyagain, it may mean:
– do not touch those who are involved in learning & mishpat, they are doing their part
– we need unity of purpose and mutual respect for the army and learners, or more precise – judges who make internal peace. This is relevant to the judicial reform and other machlokets in the countrysomejew > There are a ton of sefraim pro zionsim some written by previous anti zionsts” – If any of these were written by undisputed Gedolai Torah, please let us know.
I brought before the example: R Soloveitchik and did not see your answer. There are many who disagreed with his positions, but I believe everyone accepts him as a gadol bTorah. To clarify what his position is: despite his enthusiasm for early Yishuv and later Medinah, he was very disparaging about various statements by non-religious zionists and also generally supportive, but often criticizing religious zionists. For example, when RCA (rabbinical organization) sent out some Mafdal materials related to celebrating yom haatzmaut, he is absolutely against it – saying that only Rabbis should decide on what and how is celebrated, and sending materials on behalf of a political party creates an impression that the party can establish religious rites.
@somejewiknow
Of course, real Gedolim explain their psak the Torah sources that obligate us following it.
Nonsense that you made up. You create your own stuff to push everyone else aside. This is baloney. Real gedolim commit ACTIONS that display true torah values. Not everything is a “PSAK” especially when its haskafa and not everything needs to be “explained”. You made both these things up and the squeeze everyone else in a pickle. I won’t stand for your drei kup lies. No such notion exist. We looks at actions to expiecially in hashkafa thats not a halacha questionsomejewiknow, no, I did not get it wrong.
It doesn’t matter what sources are quoted, those who are rabidly anti-Zionist – as opposed to those of us who are not Zionist but understand those who are – don’t accept any sources that disagree with their view.
@somejewiknow
Look bottom line, you decided that zionsim is a “halacha” issue as if its basar vchalav and then posekim need to explain in a torahdik way why they pasken one way. In reality to those that hold its founded in our torah, its not a halacha issue that they need to explain. Its at most a hashkafa. Ypu come from this notion that its prohibited and anyone who allows it has to explain why, Who says its prohbited. last I check there is no Ramabam hlichos tznionim. There simply is no reason to issue a “psak”Chaim, your stories are irrelevant, as noted.
And trying to prove that working for them implies any sort of acceptance of Zionism is even more foolish.In MiaKatovitz Ad 5 Iyar, the author noted how Rabbi Kasher forged his “kol korei” with the big reishis tzemichas lie. As it happens, Rav Ovadiah quoted that Kol Korei not knowing that it was a forgery. The Satmar Rav called Rabbi Kasher “the biggest treifa”.
His opinion then was the “urgent need”, as you called it, to move to E”Y, with permission of the nations, and very much also not to politically rule there.
No, you can’t “keep on going”, because you haven’t brought any sources and there are no others because those don’t exist. Please go ahead and source them.
Zionism of any flavor is idolatry and heresy. Period. No matter how many siyumim anyone makes.
yankel berel:
Nope. Plain logic indicates that it is meakev the geulah, but that’s besides the point.
The Brisker Rav stated the same, that if not for the Zionist “Independence”, the geulah would (not just could, but would) have happened at that time. So, it is not a “daas yachid” of the Satmar Rav.
@HaKatan
My stories don’t become Irrlevant because you noted them. My stories are very relevant. When tzadikim and gedolim are pro zioniist in actions thats the torah perspective in z onsism. You don’t get to decide its not relevant with your one sided narrow minded view.Yes i can keep on going and there are many sources . the same rabbi Yosef who you qoute worked for the state of Israel. How funny. Imagine I qouted form Sol Lieberman who was a huge talmud chcuhem yet worked for JTS. If an entity is really totak aprikorisis and kefitra then anyone who works for them is “upgrefegt” and can’t be qouted. Yet you quote him. I do have one more posek that i have qouted on here in the past.
However, my key point isn’t who rote sefarim and who didn’t. The key point is that your goal post that you need a “psak” or that someone has to publish a pro zionsist sefer to allow it is baloney and nonsense. You made them and the you have the nerve to discredit even those that did.
ACTIONS are what matter since it isn’t a halcha issue. And my stories count whether you like it or not. The list of gedolim that support zionsim via actions are endless.
Sidenote, this idea that the Stamar reba zya was the undisputed gadol and that other gedolim need to respond to his sefarim or shita is also just a total lie. yes he was a gadol and holy man, But there are lots of question on him too. He wasn’t an “Undisputed gadol” like the chazon ish.
ZIONISM HAS STRONG ROOTS IN OUR TORAH AS PROVEN BY MANY GEDOLIM. Stop the misinformation.
HaKatan- Plain logic is that Zionism is bringing us closer to Geulah. If for not other reason then kibbutz galuyos is an essential component of the geulah and due to Zionism and the Medina (with it’s right of return), almost half of Klal Yisroel (if not more) have returned to Eretz Yisroel. That’s more than any point in history since the Churban. That is the definition of Kibutz Galuyos and by extension, the beginning of our eventual geulah iyH.
Chaim:
Your stories – and especially your interpretations of the same – are irrelevant, as noted.You cannot bring even one source that contradicts the Satmar Rav, Rav Elchonon and all the rest who wrote openly and explicitly that – not only secular Zionism but also – “Religious Zionism” is idolatry and heresy.
As it happens, even Rabbi AY Kook did not allow war/fighting to achieve his nationalist and Hegelian goals, and he died well before the Zionists sacrificed thousands of Jews on the idolatrous altar of Zionism. Rabbi Kook also did not quote any sources supporting his superimposing those foreign values unto the Torah, which is why Rav Yosef Yedid mockingly called him a navi in his sefer’s piece titled “Regarding a heretic about whom we need to protest”, the Gerrer Rebbe wrote that Rabbi Kook “ruled al tamei tahor” and all the rest.
Zionism has zero roots in our Torah, as proven by many gedolim. Stop the misinformation.
Further adding to this discussion is Rizyhin. For those that discount this as small compared to say Satmar, just realize that in Europe there were htousnads upon thousands of rizyna chasidim. Not that size matters. The holy rizyna had tens of grandchildren who were rebas. Its well knwon among rizyna chasdim that they supported the idea of the state of israel.
The Holy hisytna reba was nearly 90 years old and the last grandchild of the rizyna still alive. in 1948. It was shabbos when the UN granted a statehood. Everyone knew a decision was coming and it was sholosh seudas. The reba sent his grandchild outside to find out the news. The einkel asked but the reba didn’t want o keep the radio on shaoobs. And the reba said yes cvs to leave a radio on shabbos to find out the news but avda we need to know the news. The grandchild came back that yes israel was granted a statehood. The reba smiled and said he has kabala from his holy zeida the rizyna that last one of his einklach at an old age will be zocheh to see an “hischalta degula”. The story is well known and brought down. Its also known that the Satmar reba zya went in to him to be mocheh against his pro zionsist shita but couldn’t bring himself to open his mouth next to the reba and stayed silent a whole time.
And it wasn’t just this reba. All rizynna rebas whether the chortkava, Sadigyur, Baush, Shetfenesht etc were supportive of zionsim. Don’t start asking me but its not in a “sefer”. Thats irrelevant. There is no such rule that you need to print sefarim and this wasn’t a halacha question. (These rebas were also alot older than satmar and need not answer to him)> facts are you had thousnads of chasdim who believed in zionism. Every sihgle rizyna will tell you that. To just write them off as if they don’t count is just fake news and shameful. This was basic fundamental in rizyhin and not like a small fringe idea.
Of course this doesn’t discredit Stamar or Brsk or R elchanon. Also holy jews. Both sides have sources from our torah
@hakatan
I cannot see the ‘heresy’ you per force read into Zionism
You are right that the overwhelming majority of Zionists were heretics.
And that the medina and Zionism shmadded a huge amount of yehudim r’l.
Which is an avla , bal yehupar.But to say that a Zionist who happens to believe and keep the torah is a heretic – Minalan ??
When I say Zionist here ,I mean someone who supports the medina and tries to make it as frum as possible. Lav davka that he calls it ‘Reishit Tsmihat Ge’oulatenu’ . He supports the medina nevertheless because its hatslaha equals the hatslaha of its inhabitants, and serves as a reminder to some of the diaspora Jews not to assimilate .He supports the medina because he knows that its collapse would reduce its Jews to the level of the Yazidi’s of Iraq a few years ago r’l.
Such a person – is he an heretic ? If yes – Why ?@HaKatan
You are very busy with “sources” and sefraim. You keep on making up this nonsense goal post that we need sources. No we don’t. I bring down clear stories and ideologies. That’s enough. Its very r;evant and only twisters of the truth and lairs can make up their own goalposts. As I noted thousdnads of chasdim belived in this ideology. Their rebas fered tish and yom hatzmut and made public decllartaions. These are facts and thats enough. I do0n’t need a “source”Re your other point about wars, well thats silly. Not one war in israel was fought by choice. The point is that frum torah Zionism believes in politically pressuring the nations to allow us to have a homeland. Now once we are attacked after that, we have no choice but to fight. Noone is saying engage oin voluntary wars and Israel has never done that.
(side note there are soruces such as Eim HaBanim Semeichah by Rabbi Yisachar Shlomo Teichtal. and many others but its irrelevant).@SQUARE_ROOT,
Hakatan will argue that there are soruces to live in the holy land but that whats againsit our torah is to govern before moshiach. This is where he can drei akup.yankel > I cannot see the ‘heresy’ you per force read into Zionism You are right that the overwhelming majority of Zionists were heretics.
I agree with what you wrote about religious zionism and that is the main topic here.
but, as you mentioned, those non-religious Zs: they were not part of some shmad operation upon frum yidden in EY … they mostly came from Europe and Russia non-religious. Actually, those non-religious Jews who were not Zs became worse – bundists and communists – and also mostly ended up worse both being killed by commies and Nazis, assimilating, intermarrying, etc … So, you can even say that non-religious Z saved a lot of Jewish souls from the worse.
Square Root:
None of your sources have anything to do with Zionism. If anything, those are all sources against Zionism, as Zionism is the greatest defilement of the holy land.yankel berel:
It is not I who read that into Zionism, but the greatest gedolim of the past century.Even your formulation of “its [Israel’s] success equals the success of its inhabitants” is heretical.
Hashem “runs” the Jewish people on sichar viOnesh, unlike the major Zionist heresy in their “Jerusalem Program” that “the future of the Jewish people is dependent on a strong and secure State of Israel”. Therefore, He – alone – determines the success of Jews everywhere.It’s also silly. For example, there are millions of Jews in NY. Nobody ever dreamed of supporting NY “because of all the Jews who live there”. They recognize that Hashem runs the world, and that He will look after His children in whichever country/state/city that they live. As well, the Zionist “State” is not a legitimate “State”, as per halacha, and most of its inhabitants live in the land about which the Torah writes: “Hashem’s eyes are always on it [the holy land]”. So, it is beyond silly (and idolatrous) to support that idol and its “State”, when its very purpose and active goal is to destroy Judaism.
Regarding that “medinah” serving as a “reminder to some of the diaspora Jews not to assimilate”, even if there was any truth to that (I highly doubt that it helps), it is far outweighed by the intentional assimilation/shmad of its own citizens, including the forced assimilation/shmad of the chareidim whose lives the Zionists ruined a century ago and have not stopped since and by the idolatry and heresy of Zionism that it spreads throughout the world.
HaKatan- Why is the modern day Medina and Zionism heresy? Maybe I missed it, but I haven’t seen a good explanation for that accusation.
I understand how many early Zionists were heretics as they believed the Torah was only necessary to unite us as a nation in golus but having our own land and state would replace the need for the Torah to be our unifying factor. But clearly Religious Zionists don’t believe in that detail as they view the need for our state to go hand in hand with the Torah, not to replace it. So while there may be heretical forms of Zionism, it’s certainly not representative of Zionism today. In fact, if anyone believes that anymore, it’s certainly a quiet minority and it doesn’t seem to play a role in the actual government. The State of Israel is the biggest funder of Torah in the entire world, and the fact that there are Religious Zionists and Charedim as part of the Knesset only demonstrate that modern day Zionism is not nearly as monolithic and anti-Torah as it once was.
And while Zionism and the state is controversial- does it violate the Three Oaths or not (and how binding are they in the first place)? What should be our attitude towards joining forces with secular and even heretical Jews to further a common goal? Even if Zionism is wrong on both of those questions, it doesn’t make it heretical.
And in terms of Halacha, do modern day poskim, even the most hardliners, actually follow that idea that even Religious Zionism is actual halachic heresy? Do any poskim say that it’s forbidden to daven in a Dati LeUmi shul? That they can’t make a minyan? That you can’t trust their kashrus? That you can’t drink their wine? Many of the answers to these questions are “no” for actual heretical sects like Conservative and Reform Judaism… but does anyone actually say that about Dati LeUmi shuls? Is any Charedi who chaps a minyan at a DL shul or eats at their DL neighbor, friend or relative violating halacha according to any posek?
Chaim:
For the umpteenth time, stories are irrelevant. They are subject to memory, interpretation, and more. Stories cannot come close to answering black-and-white sefarim, of which there are none that support the heresy and idolatry of Zionism including Eim HaBanim Semeichah which is anyways irrelevant for multiple reasons.Regarding your nonsense about Zionist wars needing to have been fought, if you read what the gedolim had to say on the matter (and the plain history), you would see that you are wrong about that, too. The Zionists have been fighting wars for over a century, and definitely did not need to to do so. The world – and Jews in particular – would have been far better off and with far more peace were it not for Zionism and its endless wars and sacrifices of rivers of Jewish blood (including in the Holocaust, but even besides for that).
@HaKatan
” As well, the Zionist “State” is not a legitimate “State”, as per halacha,”Its not a “Halacha” you made that up. Its hashkafa and it need not be defended in written sefarim. Hashkafa is determined by actions and words that holy gedolim spoke. (Of course we can find published sefarim and many of them but thats irrelevant). And we know of tons of gedolim that behaved and spoke in manner that supported zionsim and statehood.
I will continue to note that thousands of Rizyna chasdim and tens maybe hundreds of rebas supported a statehood with many calling it a haschlata degula. Of course we have actions of so many gedlom who worked for the state of israel, and or raised Israeli flags too.
Zionism according to many is based on torah views. Please do not let bullies tell you otherwise. Just because they make up goal posts that its a halcha that must be defended and that only certain people can defend it or they say harsh sharp words like “Undisputed” , it won’t chnage the truth. Do not get intimidated. There are strong sources of Zionism in pour torah
It’s very clear that HaKatan and Somejewiknow have never interacted with the RZ community on any level in the slightest and their knowledge is at best superificial, but more likely the result of whatever their surrounding culture thinks, says and belives. Which means what they are saying is biased and utterly false hogwash, to put it very lightly.
If they would bother to interact with that community on any meaningful level, they would stop their vile slander.
They’re Neturei Karta trolls and exhausting to deal with. The reason why I stopped responding to them (and will not respond to them) is not because they are right (they are not and I stand by that), but because they are ultimately extremely un-lettered and do not want to remedy their ignorance.
ZSK:
You might be surprised about your assumptions. Regardless, the facts are what they are. The gedolim publicly and explicitly and in writing labeled as idolatry and heresy all forms of Zionism, including “Religious Zionism”. There is no defending the indefensible.
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