Anti-Zionists Criticized in Matzav Inbox

@somejewiknow,
“the Torah’s rejection of Zionism is a refection of fundamental of Yiddishkeit.”

That is a false statement. You are peddling your own ideals thats you made up based on your artificial goal posts. No its not a fundamental. According to some gedolim it was against the torah. According to others it was what the torah wanted. And so yes “Every individual and kehillah is entitled to their views on this matter based on their gadol”.

Don’t you start with me who the gedolim are because we went through this and they are many. No they don ‘t need to write or publish sefarim altough there are. Their actions suffice. And yes they are gedolim too. And yes Harav Kook ZL was a tzadik yesod olim who the chafetz chaim zl held of in great esteem. You can gladly go down this route again. But I won’t stop correcting your fake news.

Lastly, the idea that even if you believe zionsim is not founded in our torah but that its “fundamental”? Really “fundamental”? why exactly is it relevant today? In the 1940’s especially after the war you had people who bounced between satmar and mizrachi at once? he had to steer them in the right direction. But today how many satmaras or charedim become mizarchi? To say that this is like Fundamental after the state is already around for 80 years and it is what it is? It seems just more like part of being a cult to hock about zionists? Its has no relevanace.

Imagine if a large percentage of Jews were R”L L”A believers in Jews for J. Of course, Jews who claim fidelity to only G-d would be absolutely horrified and would need to drill the point that it is not at all okay to also be a believer in Jews for J.

Now, in reality, Zionism is infinitely worse. Zionism is heretical, in addition to being idolatrous (like Jews for J), and is also a replacement ideology for Judaism. Yes, given that Zionist propaganda and idolatry is so utterly pervasive, it is of utmost importance to be crystal-clear and strong that Zionism (the indefensible idolatry and heresy that you routinely attempt to defend here) is absolutely treif.

The tragic status of the Jewish nation today regarding the Beis Hamikdash;

100% pray for it

50% are secular and have little or no interest in it.

45% are religious but adopted to some extent or another Satmar ideology that it can only be achieved through 100% super natural means.

5% are ready to do whatever is necessary to actually rebuild the Beis Hamikdash any way possible.

The Sefer Hachinuch counts rebuilding the Beis Hamikdash as one of the 613 commandments, he writes the commandment is binding when most of Klal Yisroel lives on their land. Acc. to the official numbers of Jews in the world today we are pretty close if not their already.

At one of the Otzma Yehudi rallies Rabbi Dov Lior encouraged the group not to worry about their popularity as also in Yetzias Mizrayim it says וחמושים עלו בני ישראל ממצרים only a small fraction merited to leave as the others were not worthy…

By Mechiras Yosef and the Meraglim the Majority were wrong and the minority were right…

Avraham Avinu was a Yachid vs many as was Moshe Rabenu, Yosef Hatzadik, Dovid Hamelech, Yirmiyah Hanavi, Yeshaya Hanavi, Mordechai Hatzadik, Matisyahu Kohen Gadol and more…

At the end of the day in the Torah we find being afraid to conquer Eretz Yisroel is the sin of the Meraglim, going to conquer when it is not the time is the sin of the Maapilim. What it all depends on is if Hashem is commanding to do it now or not.

The fact that we have no system of appointing legitimate Rabbis to a Sanhedrin or some sort of supreme Rabbinical court is the main churban of our times. All we have are way to many groups each claiming they and their Rabbis are the truth and all the others and their Rabbis are invalid.

I dont get hakatan. no one disagrees that the zionists were not good jews. but they no longer exist. and look what they left behind. the jews who came to this country by and large became goyim. soemthing like 75-80% are either complete goyim or will be within a generation or two. the ones who went there stayed jewish, with few exceptions. and since they remained jewish they are still there to come back to hashem unlike the american jews who are now, with some exception, goyim and gone. and we see every day the jews in israel come back in greater and greater numbers. so cant we agree that israel was a net benefit to the jews?

I think the BT yeshiva that opens up with anti-Zionism has a point. For most non-frum Jews, Zionism is synonymous with Judaism. It’s a huge part of their way of life, if they choose to follow the non-frum Jewish movements. If they are completely secular, they probably think that Zionism is something intrisic in frum Yiddishkeit They may be aware of people like Neturei Karta but (like most of us) consider them to be fringe radicals. So disavowing people of a deeply entrenched notion could be a pretty top priority, especially when they start going to shul and are mystified at the complete lack of even a Magen David anywhere.

@ZSK,
You have a point but a few things.
1) Zionism of 100 years ago was mixed to. There were many gedolim and chashuva yidden who did indeed hold of having our own land in EY even before moshaich. Mizrachi was even part of agudah at one point. No torah jew held that its an excuse to forsake our torah and become not religious. And then the question became how much to cooperate with secular forces who were using it as an excuse to say we cvs don’t need the torah. Many of the gedolilm like the imeri emes zl and others were upset at R Kook Z”L for that cooperation. They weren’t upset about his ideal that we should have a homeland in EY. But then there were other gedolim who were against both ideologies such as the Stmar reba, R Elchanon and Brisker rav zl
2) Zionism of today. Today we shifted to a “post zionist” scoiety. Many years ago the jewish observer published an in-depth discussion about this. In that society, the modern day seculars aren’t saying oh if we have a homeland we don’t need to stay frum. And they aren’t trying to make you not frum. They are simply not religious. The only true Zionists left are the frum ones who used their mesora of their very chushuva rabbonim to continue the idea that its a mitzvah to do yishuv EY. Its almost like the torah part of zionsim is the same as 100 years ago while the secular part fell away.

besalel:
I don’t get why people make up nonsense. Of course the Zionism of a century ago still exists. The Zionist “State” is exactly that: Zionist.
Read their official platforms, their IDF training manuals, look at what goes on in their schools, etc. etc.

And look at how the Zionists are fighting like never before against the chareidim including the yeshiva students whom the Zionists want to convert from Judaism to Zionism by forcing them into the Zionist army.

Zionism is idolatry and heresy. Read Rav Elchonon, the Chazon Ish, the Brisker Rav and all the others (not to mention the Satmar Rav) who wrote about Zionism, including well after the “State” was founded.

Chaim just posts the thing over and over no matter what anyone writes.

A machaa must be made over his statement about gedolim wanted a “homeland” in E”Y. Ch”V, as that is against the Torah. E”Y is not a homeland. It is a powerful tool that could be used to grow closer to Hashem and perform mitzvos there that cannot be done elsewhere. It is not a “homeland” like the Zionist claim.

This nonsense about post-Zionism is just that. Rav Chaim pointed out that while people like this poster think that the Zionists shmad in order to get a State (which is terrible in and of itself, of course), the truth is that the Zionists need a State in order to shmad. The evil Zionists are actively doing so today, even more so than in the past, like in the drafting yeshiva students and in their overall war on G-d and His Torah including denying their citizens even the very basics of Judaism like shema yisrael…

Rav Elchonon and others wrote that “Religious Zionism” is the same idolatry as their secular counterparts but that the “Religious” ones mix in religion to that idolatry. No, there is no mesorah for “Religious Zionism”, and you cannot bring any sefarim that support your heretical claim. Zionism of all stripes is idolatry and heresy, as our gedolim have consistently noted for over a century, regardless of how much or how at all they dealt with the Zionists pre-State and post-State.

@HaKatan
you do the same posting the same 3 gedolim who were anti Zionist. Many many were pro Zionist.

To start with with R kook zl was a Gadol in his own right. The chafetz Chaim held him in high esteem. He walked out on the convention in 1924 when they bashmutzed him and refused to return. R Kook helped the chafetz Chaim write a Sefer after his father in law who assisted was nifter. These are hard facts.

Even the imeri emes who penned his famous letter wrote how R kook was holy and that no one should belittle him. We also know that R kook talmidim were R elyshav and R shloma zalman.

Adding to R kook supporters and those who held of Zionism were R isser zalman zl whose some became the head of hesder, the Nazir, r tzvi pesach frank.

We also know that R shraga feviel made a bracha when the state was founded. The saduguyra rebe fered tish on Yom hatzmut. The hystina was openly mizrachi. The shtefenshta Reba who talmdim were the skulner and ribnitza had a picture of hertzel in study. The ponvitcha rav raised a flag every year on yom hatzmut and by the punvitich groundbreaking ceremony had all the secular Zionist mks.
We also have a few teshuvas from very esteemed rabbonim pro the state.

You post classic yeshivish hot headedness PR. It’s very in style to think like this today as that side won over the yeshiva world. (Maybe pun intended) . But it’s fake news and far from the truth. The truth is it was a dispute among gedolim and both have a makor in our Torah.

P.S. re Zionists today, keep on drinking the propaganda kool aid . That everyone is out to get us. Maybe just maybe today’s Zionists are not religious and don’t get the Torah vs out there to shmad us. And they don’t want us to become irreligious by joining the army. They just want us to be similar to hesder who produce very holy Jews learning Gemara in Gaza and being moser nefesh to
Put on teflin with two hands chapped off and on a wheel
Chair. Is that shmad in your eyes? I get the other side and why it may not be ideal for all charedim. But to say that the Zionists only want shmad?? Think rationally and snap out of your bubble.

I see what comes out of these discussions: we need to separate between views of 50-100 years and current matzav.

There were widely diverging views 100 years ago and whatever views they were, we are not able to make judgment on them, when what is history for us, was an unknown and uncertain future for them. And their views and actions fashioned the today’s situation, whether for better or worse. Same, as some say, that Vilna Gaon put herem on chasidim – are chasidim today avdei avoda zara? some say, that is because Gaon brought them to senses. Not trying to divert the thread, just bringing an analogy.

So, when we discussing today’s world, we need to recalibrate to what exists today. Anti-religious Zionism, judging by votes and polls are a minority in EY. Another large group is “traditional” and large religious group that did not exist (in numbers like now) 100 years ago.

SQUARE_ROOT:
I just noticed the end of your comment where you hilariously claimed that, if not for the Zionists, there would be only three yeshivos today in the territory controlled by the Zionists in and around the holy land.

First of all, Mashiach would have come by now, if not for the Zionists. See the Satmar Rav’s Divrei Yoel on VaYechi and also the Brisker Rav in his biography books. Second, if not for the Zionists, who fight G-d, His Torah and His people, there would obviously be far more yeshivos there, just as there has been an explosion of new yeshivos in the rest of the world.

It’s pathetic how Zionists are so attached to their idol that they lose all sense of logic.

Rov minyan ubinyan of gdolei yisrael disagreed with him on most of his rabid anti zionist views.

Only in how to deal with the reality of the State of Israel, not the actual hisnagdus.

See R’ Reuven Grozovsky’s בעיות הזמן. (He is referring to the נטורי קרתא of his day, not to be confused with the contemporary clowns/reshoim who stole the name).
See also the Steipler’s letters (קרייינא דאיגרתא)

@HaKatan
Do you know where the name Torah vodaath comes from? It was a mizrachi yeshivah in Europe. Its head was Rabbi Rineas. If R Elchnon ZL was Ok with it then despite his opposition to zionsim he didn’t really feel it was kefira. Furthermore, R sharga Feivel Z’L was very zionsitic. I heard from eyewitneses that he made a bracha when israel obtained its statehood.. The holy Satmar reba zya was upset about it. If Torah vodaath is your ideal, then you have are pro zioniists.

Of course you quote from holy sources. And to be clear if anyone would say that being anti zionist is bad or against the torah, I’d yell at them too. However, that doesn’t make pro zionsit anymore less part of our torah. There are two sides with very big tzadikim on both sides. Its like any other dispute such as litfaks vs chasdim, R yakov emdin vs R Yonasn eibshitiz etc. All sides are holy. But as R hutner use to say about Briska Rav, the torah wasn’t given on har grezim

for anyone reading this. there are many liars about our Torah, and there is no countering opinion against the many Gedolim who spoke against Zionism and their evil State. The Brisker Rav was not a “daas yuchid”, the Steipler Geon was not a “daas yuchid”, the Chazon Ish was not a “daas yuchid”, Rav Elchnon Vaserman was not a “daas yuchid”, the Satmar Rav was not a “daas yuchid”, rav yosef chaim zonnefeld was not a “daas yuchid”, the baba sali was not a “daas yuchid”, the toldos aharon rebbe was not a “daas yuchid”, rav amrom blau was not a “daas yuchid”, the munkatcher rebbe was not a “daas yuchid”, etc etc etc

Bottom line, there is no source for any “shita” that kashers the ideology or the actions of ZIONISM TODAY. This is all clear and obvious to anyone who looks to the Torah and the thousands of seforim that have been published in our long history as the source of Truth the source of our masorah.

There is no leader in klal yisroel who can point to any source in our Torah that is a different shita than the clear psak as laborsly spelled out in the sefer Vayoel Moshe. No one has every published a challenge to that sefer, as it has been well endorsed by every Gadol who has seen it and spoken about it.

It’s also important for the audience to think about the following . Can anyone deny that many hesder boys are fine frum Jews? Maybe even our hero’s at times? Have all seen the syuim they make while fighting in Gaza ? The davening while fighting ? The Shabbos etc? Many of us have heard R Asher Weiss cry over the questions he receives from these soilders such as one with no hands who wants to know how to best put on tefiln. I ask you all are the not Torah Jews? How can one say that there anyone who believes in Zionism is a kofer after looking at them?

One more thing , how many reform Jews kept the Torah after 3-4 generations? How many conservatives? How many who followed shabasi tzvi ? Now how many mizrachi are frum 3rd generation?

Again I dare anyone to deny that these hesder boys aren’t good Torah Jews. One can say it’s still not our mesora or that it’s not for charedim. But to say they are less Jews ???

@pure yiddishkeit
where did you get that “zionism” is the only form of the mizrachi religon? I see chaylim writing sefarim on gemara, making syumim, learning torah and davening and putting on teflin in the most harshest situations? I’d venture to say more than you or I would do. That means there is more to their religon than zionism. You made this up that all they do is preach zionisim all day.

And the way you start by calling it “stupid zionist kefira” is a lie too. R Kook Z’l was no kofer. And the list of gedolim who supported zionsim isn’t kefira either. Its not a cancer and the overwhelming majority don’t make it their only form of religion. (maybe a few crazy hilltop youth)

yankel berel:
Why do you write foolishness? “The allure of Zionism has lost its appeal.” Really? Mizrachi and “Religious Zionists” worship this molech god with human sacrifices even more fanatically than do their secular counterparts. It has not lost its appeal, unfortunately. And on this very board you have people claiming that they are good frum Jews just like anyone else. Many Jews unfortunately believe the Zionist lie that Jews are a “nation” like all other nations and that the Zionists represent that mythical nation. That itself is a tragedy, even without all the Zionist shmad and other Zionist attacks on G-d, His Torah and His people.

And as Daas Yachid pointed out, the Satmar Rav was not a “Daas Yachid” re: Zionism except for specific measures including not visiting the kosel and Israelis not voting in Israeli elections.

> Many Jews unfortunately believe the Zionist lie that Jews are a “nation” like all other nations and that the Zionists represent that mythical nation

I think there is some confusing conflation of terms here. First “zionists” = non-religious people who were in power in early Israel. True. Then, everyone who cooperated in any way with those “zionists” are also called “zionists” and thus are equally treif. So, if a governor of NJ visits Lakewood NJ, now all rabonim, H’V, are guilty of the governor’s corruption?!

where do religious zionists say that Jews are “like other nations”?! I am not a bokeh in R Kook, but I was reading R Soloveitchik lately who was sympathetic to Mafdal, and he is in no way approving of such approach. To the opposite, he quotes Israeli minister on US TV in the 1950s who talks about “trusting Arab youth” and “British ministers” and recording a sarcastic remarks of a non-Jewish friend – “I would rather put my trust in G-d of Israel” …

@HaKatan
Anti zionism is not a das yachad but not ALL gedolim hold like that. You are outright lying and I won’t stand for that.

Yes there is a source for Zionism in our Torah. 1000%.
Yes there is a source against Zionism too.
Both are true. That’s an undisputed fact. You are brainwashed and lying.

Back to my other comment , do you deny that the idf Soilders mesiras nefesh made them holy Jews ? Yes or no

@somejewiknow,
Agree being in the IDF certainly doesn’t make one a tzadik. But lets say someone is in the IDF yet they are moser nefesh to do mitzvas and observe our torah. Are they not a tzadik? It sounds like you are saying no since they should have never joined. Therefore despite being so moser nefesh they aren’t holy? I just want to get that on record so everyone can see what radical you are. That would a yes or no. Is someone whose hands are chopped off but in the IDF who is moser nefesh to put on teflin a tzadik? yes or no?

“Fighting wars against the non-Jews does not make someone holy. Instead, the Gemara says that doing such things causes, G-d forbid, more bloodshed.”
So what should we have done on oct 8? Not fight back?
Furthermore, lets just clear the air many psokim hold we don’t pasken like that gemara which is an aggaduata. Furthermore, the gemara of 3 shavous only applies to when the umas haolim (goyim) don’t attack us. It doesn’t apply when we are attacked by them. This is the torah response and yes there are gedolim who were pro zionist who answered that.

Just to recap: There is a source in our torah for Zionism. There are lots and lots of gedolim who approve of Zionism. Of course nay gadol is anti being secular. And just so that everyone sees Mr somejewiknow says that IDF solders who are moser nefssh to learn torah, daven and do miztvas are not holy because they put themselves in that danger. You all heard it. Now the audience can decide

AAQ:
The confusion seems to be yours. Zionism did not stop in 1948 or even 1967. Zionism is what drives the Zionist “State”. Its parliament members speak about whether something they are debating is or is not Zionist. Etc.

Chaim:
There is zero source for Zionism in the Torah, as mentioned. Other than people whom the gedolim recognized as deviant, and who anyone with half a brain should realize the same, there is no sefer that comes close to claiming any such thing. But the greatest gedolim vehemently condemned the obvious heresy and idolatry that is Zionism. Period.

Your stories about some Rebbe making a party on some day or whatever are totally irrelevant. There is zero Torah authority that permits Zionism, which should be obvious to any thinking Jew.

@HaKatan
“Rav Elchonon and all the gedolim wrote”

“Rav Elchonon ” yes “ALL” no. Thats a lie you made up. I pointed to many gedolim who held and wrote differently,
And, again, there are many sources in the Torah that allows for forms of religious Zionism, You are lying.

Your stories about some Rebbe making a party on some day or whatever are totally irrelevant.

Nope its very relevant. It proves that there is a source from our torah. Actions matter. You know what else is relevant, And its not “some rebbe” The ruizyna rebas were holy people just like Satmar. No different.

R Kook Z”l, R Elyshaiv who obviously felt there is a place because he worked for them, R shloma zalman, R Isser Zlaman Meltzer. You know whats alos releveant? Actions taken by R sharga Feivel. Punvitcha Rav and many others that were openly pro zionsim

Sefraim written the Seridei Eish,
During the Holocaust, Rabbi Ziemba realized the urgent need for a Jewish homeland.
In 1942, in the Warsaw Ghetto, he publicly declared support for Zionism, saying that Jews needed their own state for survival.
Rabbi Menachem Kasher RY in ger and close talmind of the Imeri emes

Furthermore, we have teshivas from the steipler, R chatzkel and letters from R Aron Lieb that anyone not learning should fight in the IDF. Indeniable letters. Again that means its not kefira and forbidden.

I could keep on going. Yes in your mind. Only R elchnaon and satmar reba are gedolim. But oo bad You have no right to make these things up. Yes all the others I mentioned are gedolim and YES ACTIONS MATTER too.

Zionsim has a clear torah path