- This topic has 182 replies, 41 voices, and was last updated 7 years, 5 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
Why not acknowledge that there are a range of views on the issue of draft registration and/or ANY form of cooperation with efforts to recruit frum bochurim to some form of public service. Along with many chashuve rabbonim, I believe there are ways that bochurim coming out of high school can and should be required to participate in some form of alternative service to the tzibur that would not threaten his hashkafah while providing needed service to the tzibur (even filling in for a reservist who is called up for active duty, working in hospitals or other mosdos serving the Chareidi neighborhoods, etc). They could provide such service while continuing to learn several hours a day. Instead, the issue has been framed to make it impossible to find any middle ground and intensify the already enormous gap between segments of Israeli society.
Look, HaGaon HaRav Aharon Schechter shlita, the Satmar Rebbe shlita, Rav Elya Ber Wachtfogel shlita and many other gedolei rabbonim shlita are personally exerting themselves to attend this Asifa. That speaks for itself. No one other than someone on an elevated level as a bal plugta to them has the chutzpah to level disagreement with their holy work on behalf of Klal Yisroel.
GH:
Why not acknowledge that there are a range of views on the issue of draft registration and/or ANY form of cooperation with efforts to recruit frum bochurim
LOL. You’re the one here who’s being intolerant of the positions of others. You can’t preach about tolerance and in
the same breath insist that that anybody who disagrees with you are “wrong”, “despicable”, “idiots”, and that you Hashem “squashes” them.And then, of course, you complain that not enough people are condemning “verbal assaults”.
Whatever.
Jeez, who cares. People will continue to hate others, and cause others to hate them back. It’s the circle of life. If you have any sense in you whatsoever, you’ll ignore it all and focus on your own lives.
This is what Rav Schecter wrote in the FJJ
It’s obvious to all that Eretz Yisroel is in a perpetually
precarious state of existence: Living in the
shadow of an Iranian nuclear bomb in the making,
encircled by heavily armed, sworn enemies, singled
out for scorn by the so-called community of nations.
All of this makes the situation of acheinu b’nei
Yisroel in artzeinu hakedosha unique, and uniquely
dangerous. This mortal threat to our survival is
something of which we’re all painfully aware.
Yet, there’s another crisis unfolding there that
few if any of us are aware of. It presents an immense
existential threat to our nation in general
and to the yishuv in Eretz Yisroel in particular, and
it raises the danger posed by the enemies seeking
our destruction to unthinkable levels.
Simply stated, the danger we speak of is that
the flourishing community of yeshivos and b’nei
yeshiva, that has grown by leaps and bounds
across the length and breadth of Eretz Yisroel will
be decimated – not by 2040, nor even in as long
as a decade from now. Instead, within a handful
of years, the world’s largest and most vibrant
community of lomdei Torah will undergo a drastic
downsizing. The Olam haYeshivos as we know it –
and with it, the frum community of which it is the
beating heart – will cease to look as it does today.
That’s not hyperbole. It is incontrovertible fact.
And it is chilling beyond all words.
The following paragraphs will set forth the
state of affairs in Eretz Yisroel today regarding
the drafting of b’nei yeshiva into the Israeli army,
based on first-hand knowledge, in-depth research
and copious documentation. Little if any of this information
has been known or publicly discussed in
the American Torah community – until now.
Anyone who contests these plainly demonstrable
facts is welcome to step forward and provide
counter-evidence in refutation of what is written
here. We are confident that our rendition of the
terrifying reality will withstand scrutiny.
As the Israeli draft law stands today, the government
is required to set a goal of drafting several
thousand chareidi young men for military service
each year and to engage in various activities
designed to achieve that objective. This includes
the use of well-trained, undercover government
agents from within the chareidi community whose
mission is to persuade the b’nei yeshiva they target
to enter the army.
Currently, all b’nei yeshiva are exempt from
serving, provided they follow the prescribed procedures
and otherwise qualify for exemption. It
should be stated that under the current law, a majority
of b’nei yeshiva have a fairly easy time in securing
their exemptions: They’re able to appear in
groups at conscription offices, spend minimal time
undergoing physical examinations and promptly
receive the necessary exemption papers.
But here’s the untold story: Thousands of b’nei
yeshiva – in particular, those who are vulnerable either
because they learn in smaller or lesser-known
yeshivos, or due to having certain backgrounds,
such as Sefardic b’nei yeshiva from weaker chareidi
backgrounds and ba’alei teshuvah – are being
targeted by the army and other governmental departments
for intensive recruitment efforts. Many
of these b’nei yeshiva have been imprisoned for
failure to comply with every last detail of the bureaucratic
exemption process, despite good faith
efforts to do so. Many others remain free but live
in constant fear of being apprehended and jailed.
Large numbers of these b’nei Torah, however,
are neither in military prison nor on the run.
Unbelievable as it may seem, they are now serving
in the Israeli army. Despite being full-fledged
b’nei yeshiva, they have been wrenched from the
bais medrash and forcibly inducted into the IDF
for failing to meet the legal requirements for exemption.
Their conscription enables the army to
fill the yearly quotas of thousands of chareidim
demanded by Israeli draft law.
The basis for the drafting of many of these bnei
yeshiva is that they fail to meet the technical requirements
of a “ben yeshiva” as defined by law.
For example:
A bochur cannot qualify for exemption as a ben
yeshiva unless he learns in a yeshiva gedolah that
has at least twenty-five talmidim who qualify as
b’nei yeshiva, i.e., who are at least eighteen years
old.
A bochur who has earned any taxable money
from employment, even if only during bein
haz’manim or bein hasedarim, cannot qualify for
exemption as a ben yeshiva. Thus, for example, a
bochur who earned a meager salary during Yom
Tov break to help with his impoverished family’s
expenses will be forced into army service.
Only talmidim of officially recognized yeshivos
qualify for exemption; no new recognitions,
however, have been issued in over a year, and the
talmidim of such institutions are thus not exempt.
Under new rules about to be instituted, 1) a bochur
in his last year in a yeshiva k’tanah (the equivalent
of an American mesivta) who will be one of
the first in his class to reach the conscription age
of eighteen, will not be eligible for exemption because
his yeshiva k’tanah doesn’t have the minimum
number of b’nei yeshiva, as described in a)
above; and 2) bochurim learning in yeshivos that
do not accept Israeli government funding will not
qualify for exemption from the draft.
The army is in the process of setting up a sophisticated
inspection system under which, in an
unprecedented breach of the religious autonomy
of the yeshivos, it will begin to directly intervene in
those institutions to enforce the draft law.
Appeals to individuals and organizations to
use their political clout to help the large numbers
of bnei Torah who are in desperate straits, in the
army, in prison or cowering in hiding from the authorities,
have been in many cases unsuccessful.
Everything that has been described until this
point reflects the deeply disturbing current state
of affairs. The Israeli military refers to it as a “tekufat
histaglut,” a very temporary “adjustment
period,” in order to enable the frum community
to adapt to the coming, far more ominous reality.
In 2020, the next stage of the draft law will come
into effect, under which what were previously
non-mandatory yearly recruitment goals will become
mandatory yearly quotas of chareidi young
men required to enter the army, and the quota
levels will rise as well.
Then, in 2023, the law providing exemptions to
b’nei yeshiva comes to a complete end. The only
b’nei yeshiva who will continue to be free of army
service will be those over the age of twenty-four,
who are entitled to a permanent exemption.
However, the large numbers of b’nei yeshiva who
reach conscription age each year, numbering approximately
seven thousand annually, will be forcibly
drafted. It boggles the mind to envision the
mass conscription of b’nei Torah in Eretz Yisroel,
but that is the looming reality.
Let us speak plainly: The world is looking on
mutely as the evil Iranians, hell-bent on destroying
the Jews, proceed with building the Bomb;
by all accounts, they are perhaps a decade away
from achieving that diabolical goal. But long
before that point – indeed, in a short six years
from now, if the current situation continues – the
peerlessly glorious world of yeshivos overflowing
with young and old, with talmidei chachomim
delving continuously into the depths and breadth
of Torah, will simply no longer exist in the form
it does today. And with it, the single greatest
source of protection from that Bomb and all
the other threats we face – the intense, nonstop
limud haTorah of thousands — will be severely
undermined.
In the foregoing paragraphs, you’ve been introduced
to events and facts of which you were
probably unaware; of which, strangely, no one
speaks; and about which, our numerous media
outlets are inexplicably silent. You, too, have a
choice: You can turn the page, and turn your attention
to other matters.
Or not.The current situation actualy leads to weaker security and potentialy more fatalities since soldiers are much less experienced (many deaths in wars were due to inexperienced or unproffesional fighters) and a huge amount of money is wasted on superfluous jobnikim instead of on better technology and paying a decent salary to those who protect us and deserve it. The economy loses as a result of three years of wasted potential – a high tech worker is making coffees. The army loses quality services a private company could provide. An army marches on it’s stomach and our boys deserve the best. The list of problems goes on. I strongly encourage anyone concerned about Israels security and prosperity to research this subject.
An important point not being adressed by either side is the fact that most if not all independant experts on this subject including all commisions set up by the IDF such as the ben bassat and shefer commitees reccomend a transition to a proffessional army as in most western countries. Those who think it can’t be done in a small country like Israel should read the reports (availble in english) to get the facts. Only 2% serve in combat roles. The rest serve mostly in support such as logistics or food preparation etc all of which can be outsourced. Of those eligible for draft less than half serve the full term with 23% being rejected and many dropping out due to being unfit or leave early for other reasons.
I read the FJJ article. For the most part he paints a scary picture but doesn’t provide any hard fats. He states “lots of ‘ and” many “, bochur I’m are in prison or in hiding but does not give hard numbers. He says some individuals were arrested because they broke the rules. You can’t work while learning, the yeshiva has to have at least 25 students and the yeshivas has to be registered ( there is a one year backlog on registering new yeshivas),. He did agree that if you registered and followed the rules, no bochur is denied the deferment.
zahavasdad says it best:
“They can make an Asifa to protest Drafting, but they are powerless against abusers , thieves and agunahs”
I knocked out that comment by zd regarding them being powerless. See earlier.
That article by Rav Schechter is on the button and on target. More need not be said.
Joseph you knocked out nothing, Where is the Asifa against the reshaim in our community who are thieves , abusers and agunans
In fact some of these people are even honored by many institutions by their dinners and having their names put on buildings and other things
See my earlier comment, as I told you. Your point has no legs.
Where is the asifa against pritzus, cancer, car accidents, treif, the common cold, bank robberies, poverty and mental disorders?
Thieves and the others are not honored by them, despite your false accusation.
Joseph your refrain is so lame. Cancer and car accidents treif and common cold are such a stupid non-parallel and your throwing those in their are a diversionary tactic. Your effort to pretend that the issues he mentions are on the same level as those, your effort to pretend that the issues he brings up are not serious issues that COULD and SHOULD be acknowledged just weakens your stance.
Why doesn’t someone say, YES, we have this serious problem in those neighborhoods that we have chose to handle be sweeping it under the carpet and I don’t know why , but these people are still chashuv. Or they could try saying YES it is hard to understand why people would abuse, set fire to, ex communicate and destroy families who try to protect their children from abuse but I still respect them for other things.
Pretending brings no credibility to you, and not being able to give a valid, upstanding “excuse” just confirms that you too know that the behaviors are wrong and need to make them go away instead of answering to them.
It’s 2017. Get over it. Israel is a state. Move on. If you love the PA so much, move to the west bank.
Syag, clearly you aren’t following the sub-conversation. ZD alleged the gedolei rabbonim shlita callously disregard, tolerate and honor thieves , abusers and aguna creators. This is a blatant lie. And I am pointing out that zd’s supposed parallels are no comparison. An asifa will not stop thieves from stealing, will not stop abusers from abusing and will not stop aguna creators from creating agunas.
Everyone knows stealing is wrong, you don’t need an asifa. But not all frum Americans are aware of the crimes the Zionists are committing against Bnei Torah and the frum community. Thus an asifa is useful in this case, unlike the non-comparable cases he mentioned.
This is a false argument. Either there is a danger to yeshivot or there is not. Either we can rely on chareidi parties or we cannot. Even if the organizers are hypocrites and reshaim or contrary to an undefined da’as torah or whatever you think, their arguments should be considered on their own merits.
But I think both sides are really arguing about a hypothetical situation. If every extra soldier contributes to and is essential for our security this may be a real question – is it right to have many in yeshiva who are not truly learning all day and protecting us with their torah, (and may even be deteriorating spiritually for that reason), when they could be providing more protection in a hesder or other setting. But study after study show this is not the case and there are many secular and dati Israelis advocating to transition to a professional army for better security.
Chareidim should be making this point and receive broader support and legitimacy. Instead they sound like “we need a draft but not us”, which is outrageous.
Dati leumi should take note that Moshe Feiglin, a symbol of religious right wing activism since Oslo, has been saying for years that although he encourages chareidi participation it should not be enforced for the above reason. You may not agree but at least give a reason why not. Mostly those against do not understand the issues or just have a traditional approach, “thats how its always been” or “its a mitzvah so we must force you”. If people would understand the concept of individual liberty we would have a lot less division.If there is a thief or an abuser who is HONORED by an institution by a dinner or a name on a building, they are enabling them and there are plenty of such cases, it is not so rare.
There are not plenty such cases whatsoever. Your false accusations against talmidei chachomim and gedolei rabbonim shlita violates numerous issurim with its falsity. Take your animosity against Judaism elsewhere.
I’d like to know the basis of your statistics. Did you make them up in your head?
Burying your head in the sand and blaming the messenger and ignoring the truth will only makes the situation worse and makes your just as guilty as the perps
That’s very funny Joseph. You claim speaking out against the behavior of certain specific communities is animosity against Judaism. Well guess what, Judaism doesn’t advocate for the things he is speaking against. And your habit of misrepresenting halachos and minhagim to portray a discriminating and hateful Gd (ch”v) are much worse and much more damaging than calling out a handful of communities for something they shouldn’t do.
I’m slightly confused..
They’re against the draft.. but if I understand Yiddish correctly, the signs say (in BIG BOLD, BLACK AND RED) “WAR”. מלחמה. We should all go out to war.
So.. which way is it?!?
this has zero to do with the event at the barclay center next week. but one can counter this statement “But not all frum Americans are aware of the crimes the Zionists are committing against Bnei Torah and the frum community. ” with the following, “But not all frum Americans are aware of the crimes many so called frum people are committing against Bnei Torah and the frum community with their financial shenanigans and the covering up certain behaviors” that an Asifa wouldnt help spread awareness.
My biggest fear is that this asifa will go the way of the technology asifa in citi field. noble intentions, but people walking out scratching their heads wondering what they just spent the last 4 hours listening to and become nothing but grist for the laitzanus mill.
The technology Asifa was a roaring success. As a direct result of it you, today, have TAG offices worldwide helping Yidden install filters, something many folks were blissfully unaware of before the worldwide series of technology Asifas that took place starting at Citifield.
If you feel you’re smarter than the gedolei yisroel shlita, and you know better than them when yes and when not to conduct asifas, I suggest you give them a call with a piece of your mind.
Or, become a godol b’yisroel.
Until such point and time the masses of Bnei Torah will continue to follow our Torah leaders and attend asifas they call. Like the technology Asifa at Citifield and like next weeks Asifa at Barclays.
…or we can just contact their heilige representative Joseph here in the CR
ZDAD- ur right there are problems but from the way this letter sounds these problems also exist. I dont know why there isnt anything being done about the issues you brought up (i have my theories and its not all about money) but can people not understand that this may also be a legitimate concern??
Takamamash- feel free to call him for his sources.
Is it easier for everyone to trust the israeli government than a our gedolim? Puh leeeeeeez
apushitayid- i think citi field accomplished, maybe not as much as was expected but an awareness was raised. Parents were oblivious to what their children were doing, now they know. Either way i hope whatevr were trying to do accomplishes its goal too. The power of lots of jews uniting, especially for the sake of the torah, is very powerful. Especially if they pray.
and ZDAD thanks for putting up the thing : )
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/hated-persecuted-minority-2/#post-1289324
another reason why id think our rabbis have less ulterior motives than them
In the end the Asifa will do nothing anyway. The only real way to change any laws is to vote and change them in the Knesset.
The Peleg faction refused to vote and estimates showed they cost the Charedi Parties at least one seat in the Knesset for their vote boycott.
If you vote and get more seats in the Knesset then you can change the law
“The technology Asifa was a roaring success.”
Believe what you want. it was in the opinion of all those sitting in my section and who shared the trip back home with me, a resounding question mark. People walked away with more questions than answers. Many people didnt even know what was being said because yiddish is perhaps their third language. The local community asifas led by local Rabbonim who were able to communicate (literally) with their kehillos, and offer practical day to day guidance was way more beneficial than anything done at citifield.
” As a direct result of it you, today, have TAG offices worldwide helping Yidden install filters, ”
something many folks were blissfully unaware of before the worldwide series of technology Asifas that took place starting at Citifield.”If you think people were blissfully unaware that filters existed, you would likely believe anything. People installed filters because they were forced to. You want your kid in this yeshiva, you better have a filter. you want your kid to have a phone, it better have a filter, or we will confiscate it and never return it.
Either way, as it relates to this asifa. If the goal is not clear to the attendees and they walk away scratching their heads, i cant imagine ever getting people to another asifa (unless someone twisted their arm).
How about publishing a full list of Rabbonim, Roshei Yeshiva, and Askonim who will be organizing and/or participating–in advance of this protest. That will allow us to make informed decisions as to which institutions and causes we would be inclined to continue to support. The, after the event, publish a list of those who actually attended to also help make these determinations.
It would be great if one or two organizations would schedule a counterprotest outside of Barclay’s against this Chillul Hashem.
I’ve already made extra contributions last week to Yeshiva Gedolah Zichron Moshe of South Fallsburg, Congregation Yetev Lev D’Satmar and Yeshiva Rabbeinu Chaim Berlin to support their efforts in organizing and bussing their talmidim and yungerleit to this Asifa.
Once I find out the other sponsors and supporters I’ll make those additional contributions accordingly.
There was also a so-called counter-protest outside of Citifield during the technology Asifa. But today no one even remembers those half a dozen losers.
Joseph:
Wonderful. The talmidim and yungeleit are so steeped in Torah study that they have time on their hands to be bussed to and attend these protests. I guess they take after their brethren in Eretz Yisroel who neither have jobs to go to nor the zitzfleisch/kishroin to sit in the Beis Medrish for more than an hour a day.
I know that they welcome your increased financial support which allows them to continue their lifestyle.
There was also a so-called counter-protest outside of Citifield during the technology Asifa. But today no one even remembers those half a dozen losers.
LOL, you are such a riot..
Truly a chlemner Chassid
Ye because none of them are so steeped in learning that theyll talk in learning on the way. What are you saying? Have you walked into bais shalom in the mir? Ponevezh? These guys learn more torah on the way to the grocery than most people learn in a day. Go try to keep up with r ashers shiur and tell me they dont have kishron.
You think people arent learning in america? This isnt just lies its ignorance and hate. All the apples arent rotten, are you?
The solidarity and oneness being shown from bnei torah in america for their brothers in arms across the ocean are beautiful to me and probably to most people whose eyes aren’t blurred by hate and a lifes mission of negative hock.
Another guy that thinks he knows when a bochur should learn and when he should stop, more than the marbitzai torah of this generation. You sir deserve a medal.
“The talmidim and yungeleit are so steeped in Torah study that they have time on their hands to be bussed to and attend these protests. I guess they take after their brethren in Eretz Yisroel who neither have jobs to go to nor the zitzfleisch/kishroin to sit in the Beis Medrish for more than an hour a day.”
Dr. E: Your post makes me sick.
Firstly, the fact that one of the biggest gedolim in America is allowing his holy talmidim to miss some of their precious learning time shows how big of a deal it is…
Secondly, don’t make believe that all (or even most) of the bochurim in Israel “neither have jobs to go to nor the zitzfleisch/kishroin to sit in the Beis Medrish for more than an hour a day.” Most (almost all) of them are learning all day and have more mesiras nefesh for learning than you could ever understand sitting on your computer making fun of them- the holiest people in klal yisroel.
You clearly have no idea what it means to learn and sit in yeshiva (even for 1 hour!!) and you clearly don’t have any chashivus for the torah or those who hold it dear. Maybe learn a little (start with 5 minutes…) and hopefully (with help from hashem) you will be enlightened to the beauty of torah and your sickening opinions will change.
You must be a Barditchiver chossid, being melamed zechus for the guys that have so much time on their hands that they can attend rallies and protests at a moment’s notice. Something tells me that most of the protesters are not coming from the serious Yeshivos, nor attending R. Asher’s shiur.
When should a guy stop learning? When he understands the teitch of the condition written in his Kesuva! Or when his Mashgiach has the guts to tell him that he is just kvetching the bench all day.
“When should a guy stop learning?”
You can NEVER stop learning!“It would be great if one or two organizations would schedule a counterprotest outside of Barclay’s against this Chillul Hashem. ”
I know of one yeshiva that instructed its talmidim to stay in the beis medrash next sunday.
Dr. E – Halevai a barditchever chassid.
Why not from the serious yeshivos? Talmidim from these roshei yeshiva have gone to r ashers shiur doc. R elya ber sends to the top yeshivos in israel.
Also i wasnt asking you when bnei torah should stop learning, i was saying that your opinion on whether its a waste of time for a solid guy to close the gemara to protest this is odd due to the fact that leading roshei yeshiva (who im pretty sure stress the importance of limud hatorah and dont take to its interruption lightly, as displayed by this very thread) are disagreeing with you.
Godolhador -“What was originally meant as a limited waiver of the draft for a small number of serious learners has morphed over the years to a sense of entitlement for ANY chareidi bochur to avoid the draft or any form of alternative public service and shift the burden on to others. ”
I agree with you, but you won’t agree with my opinions. Even in the rest of the world, Yeshivas have become an excuse not to participate in society!
In EY, there are good reasons not to join the IDF (which I believe in), but in Chutz Learetz, anyone not in Yeshiva is a Goy. (So says the Frum world.)
The fact is there are many Frey people in EY with exceptions for IDF service, the Yeshiva guys should come first for exceptions!
I don’t agree with making demonstrations or public outcries, this includes Asifas against internet! It doesn’t matter what side you’re on!There was a letter going around that was signed by the 4 Roshei Yeshiva of BMG stating that everyone should try to attend the asifa. It was now announced that the letter was falsified, and the Roshei Yeshiva never said/wrote any such thing.
Yet another chillul Hashem from those supporting this gathering.” It was now announced that the letter was falsified”
Well, its a good thing Joseph didn’t donate any money there. Regardless, its really been entertaining reading the exchange between zahavasdad and joseph (One intelligent person and the other with his head so deep in the sand, that hes probably looking at China). Joseph, regarding your preaching about gedolim: While I respect anyone’s knowledge of Torah, it does not make one a LEADER. Leadership requires other skills. Also, most of us have rabbonim that we truly respect and admire and they may have different opinions than those you mention. As an adult, I get to choose who I want to listen to and if I don’t follow a particular rav, its not because I don’t respect with him; it because I may not agree with him.DM: That so-called letter was barely distributed to anyone other than four sanitation workers. It was produced by Zionists who “miraculously” discovered the(ir own) letter was a forgery (by themselves.)
The bottom line is various gedolei yisroel shlita from the yeshivish, litvish and chasidish rabbonim not only endorsed it but will personally attend it. Some of them are bringing their talmidei hayeshiva with them, in an indication of how strongly they see it’s importance, while other roshei yeshiva chose to have their regular limudei Torah shiurim, as they hold that’s what will stop the reshoyim in the Israeli government. Nevertheless, whichever mehalach each of them chose not a single godol hador is on the record as not supporting the Asifa. All who have spoken of it publicly support it whether or not they are sending their yungerleit to attend or to learn.
Were you the sanitation worker or the Zionist?
If some rabbonim and askanim want to run around hoding these “asifahs” on the evils of cooperating with the IDF draft, using the internet, and other issues of concern that is certainly their option but there is zero evidence these “rallies” serve any purpose other than to enrich those who provide logistical support with banners, sound systems etc. Most of the time they end up screaming gevalt to their true believers but really don’t reach those who currently disagree with them. At some point, they might consider finding some middle ground with the government, with technology providers etc. rather than their “just say no” mantra.
Joseph is the re-encornation of Hershel of Ostropol
Gadolhadorah -“If some rabbonim and askanim want to run around hoding these “asifahs” on the evils of cooperating with the IDF draft, using the internet, and other issues of concern…etc.”
Another post I agree with! Even though I’m on the right when it comes to Frumkeit.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.