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AY – +1 Just curious about your comment about the Satmar Rebbe, Zatzal. It sounds like you were saying that he would have approved of a deal with the Arabs at his time? Is that what you were saying?
Avi K. +1 What you are saying is very true and probably the main reason that some Americans think that the US is safer than EY. Another part of it is that everying that happens in EY is blown up in the news, whereas they do not report every mugging, etc. that happens in the US.
Another part is that people in the US take it for granted that they have to take certain safety precautions and that their lives are restricted as a result. ZD – you say that you were never mugged. Well, that is because you do not walk around at 2:00 am like I do all the time in EY. You think about where you are going and what time it is – things that I do not have to do here.
Also, you may have never been mugged, but tons of people in the US have. Many people have told me that they were mugged in the US (several at gunpoint). I know of almost no one who was ever mugged in EY.
MW13 -“Name them”
Why should I? Because you say so?!?
Health, not naming them is suspicious. I very have a good laugh when in Geuula or Mea Shearim when I see paskevilim signed “The Rabbanim Shelita”. However, you may be an exception. ??? ?? ?? ????
Avi K -“Health, not naming them is suspicious”
And who are your Gedolim?
Don’t tell me Rav Kook, because he hasn’t been alive for many years!
Health!:
MW13 -“Name them”
Why should I?
Because otherwise you lose all of your credibilty and nobody will take you seriously. I can’t believe that I have to explain that to you…
MW13 -“Because otherwise you lose all of your credibilty and nobody will take you seriously. I can’t believe that I have to explain that to you”
First of all, I don’t think anybody takes anyone seriously in the CR!
Secondly, if I would – would you change your beliefs?!?
Health, you cant hide behind “Daas Torah”, with out telling us which gedolim back your views.
Even if you believe that nobody will change their opinions, it is still your responsibility to name the Rabbis who support your ideas.
Health: If you would quote a Rav or Rosh Yeshivah and someone could verify that statement, I’m pretty sure that person would retract his claim that you don’t have any serious Torah scholars on your side.
!:
Fine, have it your way…
Lilmod, a woman once told me that she was walking alone late at night in Yerushalayim when she realized that a man was walking behind her. She quickened her pace and he quickened his. He then passed her, turned around, wagged his finger at her and said “You’re not in America!” Of course, You can see a statistical comparison on-line ( Country vs country: Israel and United States compared: Crime stats) – and keep in mind that the Israeli crime rate includes “family honor” killings.
LU: “It sounds like you were saying that he would have approved of a deal with the Arabs at his time?”
Before 1948,the majority of the gedolei Torah were opposed to the idea of Jews declaring sovereignty in E.Y. This of course, primarily meant not declaring a state.
After the atheists, along with some “religious” assistants disregarded the gedolim’s opinion, and declared the state, a certain change took place.
The Chazon Ish zt”l held that we are anyway “partnered” with tje seculars even if we don’t want to be. (He did not rule that frum Yidden have to pack up and leave E.Y. because of this). For that, and other reasons, the Chazon Ish held to vote for a party in the Knesset and in the local municipalities that will see to the needs of the frum community. This was and is alos the opinion of many other gedolei Torah. The Brisker Rav zt”l agreed with them regarding municipal elections, but not for national (Knesset) elections.
The Satmar Rav zt”l remained adamant in his view about not recognizing the state and zionism in general. Even after the state came into existence. Therefore, NO voting, and NO taking govt. funds for schools.
Before 1948, some of the gedolei Yerushalayim wanted to try to reach some kind of understanding with KIng Abdalla of Transjordan (the present king’s grandfather). Rav Yosef Chaim Zonnenfeld was a prime believer in this attempt, and sent Dr. Yaakv DeHaan on “secret” missions to discuss peace with the king. The secular zionists were outraged at this, and Yitzchak BenZvi and his wife, went out (were sent) to dispose of DeHaan. Actually the wife pulled the trigger and shot DeHaan ha he was leaving shul after Ma’ariv.
I don’t know if the Satmar Rav zt”l would have sought out or approved of a “deal” with any Arab states. Before 1948, it might have been a possibility. TODAY, no gadol urges such an approach. And so, neither should any of us.
Health, so are all of the gedolim you have previously mentioned. I will, however, mention a few who are still alive (ad 120). Rav Dov Lior, Rav Nahum Rabinowitz, Rav Shmuel Eliahu. If you want opinion of a Chareidi gadoil see Mishne Halachot 15:213.
AY,
1. I dispute your claim about the majority of the gedolim. In any case, gedolim are not Hashem and can err. They erred when they told Jews not ot leave Europe.
2. Actually the killer was Avraham Tehomi. However, he was (so he claimed) sent by Ben-Zvi/
3. Chaim Weizman had already reached an agreement with Abdulla’s father Faisal in which the latter enthusiastically supported the idea of a Jewish state.
In any case, gedolim are not Hashem and can err.
But non gedolim cannot err, so we should always listen to them?
Matan1 & Sam2 -“Health, you cant hide behind “Daas Torah”, with out telling us which gedolim back your views.
Even if you believe that nobody will change their opinions, it is still your responsibility to name the Rabbis who support your ideas.”
Health: If you would quote a Rav or Rosh Yeshivah and someone could verify that statement, I’m pretty sure that person would retract his claim that you don’t have any serious Torah scholars on your side”
What Gedolim do you have? The same as Avi K? “Rav Dov Lior, Rav Nahum Rabinowitz, Rav Shmuel Eliahu.”
Even though, I’m sure that they are respected Rabbis, but I don’t think that average Frum person would consider them Gedolim!
“1. I dispute your claim about the majority of the gedolim. In any case, gedolim are not Hashem and can err. They erred when they told Jews not ot leave Europe.”
Who decided that they erred? You?
“In any case, gedolim are not Hashem and can err.”
Whether or not they can “err”, we are not “erring” by listening to them. We are doing what we are supposed to be doing and t/f no harm will befall us.
Health, who is the average frum person?
Lilmod, it depends. The Yerushalmi (Hoiriot 1:1) ays not to listen if they tell you that right is left and left is right. The Chafetz Chaim and the Be’er Sheva say that it is talking about a case where one is certain. In any case, where there are many gedolim and certainly today when some are controlled by courtiers (askanim) it is not so simple.
“and certainly today when some are controlled by courtiers (askanim)”
I don’t think we are allowed to say (or think) such as thing. Sounds like “bizui Talmidei Chachamim” to me.
Obviously, if you hear something from an unreliable source, you shouldn’t listen to it. But if it known that the Gedolim did say something, we have to listen.
Avi K -“Health, who is the average frum person?”
S/O who’s Shomer Shabbos.
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