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correct, not everything involved in the state has those intentions
i think ill leave it to 80. hes a mod so you have to listen. im just the crazy follower of really big rabbis.
Rav Kook has a psak that women shouldn’t vote or hold public office. You hold of that, right?
ZD – Rav Schach was no Tzinoi compared to you guys. He might not have been like Brisk against taking money and voting, but he certainly didn’t look at the Medina the way you do!
zsdad: Yes, he was a really big rabbi. And this is what Rav Shach wrote about the State (Letters 1:2):
Rav Shach writes that in the Bais Din Shel Maalah, when they ask him why he was against Zionism, he will not need to answer in detail – all he will do, he said, was he will point to the Chofetz Chaim and say “I am agaisnt Zionism because he was against it!”
guess im covered on that score.
are you starting another hashkafic debate? cuz in four seconds flat someones gonna quote R Shach on that too.
great zd. do you know the pshat behind it? no. did R Shach write the above in michtavim? yes. im in middle of hearing a shiur by r pincus about the koiach of tfilah. he says the koiach is soooo strong that”who knows if the state of israel came into existence because of a sincere tfilah of one mizrachi jew. a mistaken jew, mistaken but with a sincere tfila.”
as to the persistent postings of zahavasdad about the flag flown at the Yeshivah, it is well known that R Shach,tzl felt forced to allow it, and was not pleased at all. i dont know the entire story as zahavaqsdad certainly does not as well.
as one of the commentators pointed out:
Would the Chazon Ish (etc.) have held joining the American Army is Yehareg V’Al Yaavor?
How about women joining the American army?
no GAW. because the chazon ish didnt hold that the matarah of the US is to get rid of all traces of frumkeit
Obaminator: Rav Shach was against it because a card carrying member of chovevei tziyon was against it?
ItcheSrulik: You are referring to the Chofetz Chaim? His talmid muvhik, Rav Elchonon Wasserman hy”d writes that the CC stated that the Zionists are “from the seed of Amalek”.
Prophet Yirmeyahu instructed us to make our peace with the Medina that destroyed the first Temple and be good Babylonian citizens. Likewise, we all need to accept the “Zionist” Medina as a fait accompli and be good citizens there.
Funny Josh, but when the world tells you very soon to just accept the UN decision that Arab Palestine is a State, are you just going to accept it? The Medina and their followers just want acceptance, but they don’t have to practice what they preach!
Not that I’m pro a Palestinian state, but I’m also not pro a “Jewish” state based on Non-Torah laws!
Rav Elchonan said it about the Jewish Communists, not Zionists.
The obsession with the Medina and the distortions are truly amazing.
Health, what shaychos?
mdd – I was talking to Josh about his acceptance speech.
Josh -“You have not made peace with a State in which about 1/2 the Jews now live within.”
Nor do I or any other Frum Jews tend to.
“The Torah community did not survive for 2500 years by spewing hatred towards the States they lived within.”
I spewed no hatred. I said I don’t hold of them and you shouldn’t take money or go vote or go to the army.
Now it’s treason to have free speech and this type of oppressive gov. is what you want me to hold of? Sounds more like Commmunist Russia than a democratic State!
mdd -“What would have been better, had all those frei Yidden gone to Paris or New York, and there would not have been a Medina?”
I’ll answer what the Gedolim at that time said -Definitely yes!
Some even said that Moshiach would have been here already if they wouldn’t have made the Medina.
Sam2 – I know of one Godol – Rav Kook. Can you name any others?
“I think Josh’s point is that we shouldn’t treat the Medina worse than we view the US government.”
Of course you have to. While the US hasn’t written laws to conform to the 7 Mitzvos Bnai Noach, it still wasn’t conceived based on Kefira!
josh- your point about R shach and ponovize was addressed earlier. the difference between the state and the US is that the original founders, and the creators of zionism upon whose ideals the state was founded, didnt want there to be an connetion between judaism and Hashem. they tried repeatedly to shmad children. the US government never cut off taimani childrens payos.its also interesting to note that while gedolim of different camps ie R aharon kotler and the satmar rav disagreed with each other in certain pratim, they still were machshiv each other, and understood each others’ positions. R kook on the other hand, they considered as having made a terrible mistake hashkafically, which terribly affected klal yisroel. ad kiday kach that in telz they didnt say tehillim for him when he was sick and dying.
the latest comment by “toi” compels me to comment and make a “macho-oh”. He asserts that in Telz, they did not say Tehillim when Rav Kook zz”l was ill. First, I do not believe this for one millisecond. this is a “canard” that is not true and is only stated to make an indecent point. But, secondly, the whole concept is irrelevant. we have the medinah today that is home to millions of Shomrei torah umitzvot and thousands of yeshivos. The establishment of Israel has proven, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that we need our own medinah, with all its problems.
I could list names but I’m not sure what the point would be. See if you can find any pictures of the signs from 1948-50 telling everyone that they should celebrate what we were given and that they should participate in the government so that there will be representation for the religious. Some of the names signed there might shock you.
Health, you take the Satmar-Brisk shitos for an universal opinion. They are not.
Could you specify what would have been better had the Medina not been there?
It is also easy to win a debate in your mind, when you only look at one argument and ignore or cast aside supporting arguments from the other side…
There is no point quoting prominent Ravs both past and present who support the Medina, since those against it will discredited them for not being “orthodox” and compromising on halacha…
Can I name names Yes, Can I list prominent Yeshivas that have strong Hesder programs combining Learning with army service, a love of the land and Medina, sure…but what is the point….
no one said ALL founders or participants in the state are secular.
and your analogy is riidiculous
differences of opinion about shaving with an electric razor as a mashul for eating pork, promoting abortions, and doing whatever possible to wipe out all forms of adherence to the Torah. these Jew-haters are enemies of YOUR Boreh. he does not desire achdus with them.
any religion they have allowed, any participation in the government by the religious was only becaise it is either out of their power to stop or because of political necessity or expediency.
you have shown in all your posts a profound naivete about what the state is, how it was founded, and what its desires, hopes, and wishes are for.
Rabbiofberlin. had there not been a state and HKB”H wanted a destruction, it would have happened even with the state. And had it not been for His miracles since its founding, the Jews of EY could have been destroyed a couple of times over(1948,1967, 1973 etc.).
Abelle, do you have any answer to my rayos?? Now,even if it is true that such a line was there ( of which I am by no means certain), it was written in some very specific context. If you want to claim that it is to be taken literally, then it is contradicted by numerous ma’amarei Chazal.
Moderator, what would you expect from officially secular Jews?? Your and others outrage is puzzling! It is not like they were pretending to be frum, and then you caught them doing aveiros.
The only purpose for which the state was created was to serve as a refuge from antisemitism. They would have been just as frei without the Medina.
yes no one claims the state MADE them frei. of course they would have been just as frei without the state. this has nothing whatsoever to do with what anyone is talking about.
they would have been just as frei but they would not have been able to promote a prideful, arrogant, in Hashem’s face so to speak, dance, arrogance and disgusting pride of the wicked abominable sinners IN THE HOLY STREETS OF YERUSHALAYIM!
chas v shaolom that words like this should even be seen by Jewish eyes.
the basic makeup of the state today, not only its founding, are those jews who are ashamed of being Jewish and their response is to hate Judaism, to hate Hashem, and our Torah which he gave to us. this is what the state is, a desire to find safety from persecution and to be just like all the other nations that have no Torah. this is its founding and its present form.
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