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lesschumras: It’s only kfira to join a Jewish army.
Abelleh, the reason why few people were in kollel in Europe is because they had very limited financial resources there — not because anybody thought that is wrong to increase the number of learners. Had they had the money, more people qwould have learnt.
Gemora in Kesubos 106A is mefurash that there used to be tons of people learning in times of Chazal, just as there are today in Lakewood.
There are numerous sources that there is a mitsva to support learning. Gemora in Kesuvos 111B is mefurash that one does not merit the techias ha’meisim unless one is a Talmid Chocham or has seriously assisted one. Chofets Chaim writes in “Ahavas Chesed” that the ma’aser from one’s earnings should go mostly to support learners.
Abelle, Itche Srulik, I am not done yet. There is a ma’ase with Ulla which is brought down in 2 places in the Gemora. When Ulla came to Bavel, he saw that very cheap friuts were available ( I think, figs). He then had a big question about the Babylonian Jews: if there is such cheap food available in Bavel, why don’t the Babylonians learn? (He meant more people should be in kollel or work very part-time). Afterwards, he discovered that you can’t eat a lot of figs, so he stopped wondering. In fact, the Shul. Aruch Or.Chaim 156 says that one should attempt ( if possible ) to make learning his main occupation and work a secondary one.
mdd – The problem isn’t that e/o does like the Mishna of Asay Torasecha Kvah V’melactara Aray.
You’re confusing the issue. Kollel nowadays doesn’t include any work at all. A perfect example of the Mishna is the Chofetz Chaim
who owned a grocery store. They say he worked a tiny bit in the morning, just to get some money for that day, and then either his wife took over or he closed it and went to learn.
Chazal say Asarah Batlonim Beir. This doesn’t mean that you’re allowed to have ten guys doing nothing all day. This means that the city is only required to support ten people whom are learning all day and not doing any work! Is this what your average Kollel looks like, not in some way out of town place?
BS”D:
I disagree with the premise of this thread.
In general, there are two groups, which also can be split into another two groups. They are:
1: Learning & working.
2: Serious about Yiddishkeit and not so serious.
A: 11 (learning & serious) will be the one who learns 12+ hours, and is Mistapek B’Muat
B: 12 (learning & not so serious) is the guy who hangs out in the back & shmoozes.
C: 21 (working & serious) is the guy who learns during his free time, and supports learning, but feels the need to pay tuition, etc., and has decided that this is his derech of Avoda.
D: 22 (working & not serious) is the guy who wants the Lexus.
(B & D would both be discribed by some as “orthoprax”)
As per the OP’s point, the “C” individual is already supporting Torah, both his own, his children (which is his primary chiyuv), his children’s school (by paying tuition, possibly full), and others (such as his local Kollel).
Feif Un said it well:
Derech HaMelech: No, I don’t recognize that it’s my job to support them. If it was limited to the best, the future leaders, then yes, it would be – but not the way it is now. I support some people who I believe have a future as a leader – people who are roshei kollel, who have semichah and are looking for positions, etc. but not people just sitting and learning without a plan for the future.
I would elaborate (B’Mechilas Kevodo). Every Yid is Mechuyav in the continuation of the Klal (i.e. to create Gedolim). In the Shtetel, that was the Rov, who was needed to Pasken Shaylos.
After that, the question becomes a matter of priorities in Tzedaka. We have a Shulchan Aruch (YD 251) that tells us where to prioritize.
The problem begins when others claim that the Shulchan Aruch doesn’t apply, and that one is Mechuyav to support specific individuals in Kollel (which admittedly, I have only seen that claim in the CR, and never in practice). If they are the priority according to the SA, then great. If not, then claiming so just makes others angry, and rightfully so! They are attempting to make them be Over Halacha!
The OP doesn’t mention anyone being anti-learning, just anti support (and before you start with those who don’t get, Tzedaka in the form of tuition breaks is support). I have not seen the OP post anywhere in SA to back up his/her claim that such support should be a priority over other Tzedoka, personal needs, and/or tuition.
The premise of this thread is faulty.
“lesschumras: It’s only kfira to join a Jewish army. “
It’s kfira to join an army? What does that even mean?
tro11 – “It’s kfira to join an army? What does that even mean?”
It means the Torah doesn’t allow you to join up!
tro11 – “It’s kfira to join an army? What does that even mean?”
It means the Torah doesn’t allow you to join up!
It doesn’t mean that.
I was referring to the US Army.Why is it kfira to jopin the Israeli Army? P
cuz its a state bent on the utter nulification of serving god and doing what he commands. you want to defend them?
tro11 and lesschumras: I was being sarcastic about a particular shita. If you want to know what that means, I suggest you ask one of its adherents.
Toi, just so I understand. Does kfira extend to refusing the army’s protection? Refusing all government services? [ fire trucks, sanitation?
below is the Hakhel email that went out this morning, (9/6/11) interestingly enough.
and its pretty apparent as to which side he is on…
Toi: You do realize that the State of Israel is the biggest Kollel in the history of the world, right?
Serving in the Israeli Army is not about agreeing with the secular policies and lifesttyle followied by others or the state itself. It is about defending your own people and existence. Without Israeli soldiers to defend us, where would our EY yeshivas and kollels be not to mention our dear precious Torah true communities. We are part of klaa Yisrael, total agreement is a luxury we have never tragically known as a people, but we have always had a Jewish Army with clear halachot on how that army should conduct itself.
im not sure what i said that the chazon ish didnt already. i find no need to defend the positions of gedolei hador. moreover, unless a malach or eliyahu hanavi came and told you otherwise im not sure where your chutzpa came from to disagree. in response to all your taanos- a secular, antitorah medina cannot be a good thing. theyre opposed to torah and mitzvos, and from my understanding, Hashem doesnt like people (or al kol ponim their actions) that go k’neged his torah. by extension i dont like them either. joining up with risho’im isnt good. theyre not doing you any favors, and if they are their intentions are to put you off from serving Hashem even if you cant see it.
Toi: The “fact” that the State hates Torah is a huge misconception. There are definitely people in it who do; there is no denying that. But the State pays a stipend to every single person who wants to learn full time. That at the very least should be appreciated. There is still more than plenty that needs to be fixed, but generalizations like the ones you made are misleading and inaccurate.
I second Sam2 on the Medinah.
Sam2 – The fact that they support Torah learning and they do other social services to Frum Jews negate the fact that the Medina is based on Kefira. There are even many Frum Jews in the Israeli gov. All this are side issues. The fact is that the Medina was created based on Kefira. This is the reason why the Gedolim held you can’t join their army. As far as I know this hasn’t changed even in our generation.
Thanks for your postings Sam2
Personally I could not take from anyone I did not recognise and tolerate. I would not expect financial, educational, health services and least of all national security. Of course Israel has problems, but how can one expect to take and not give back a fair share. Nahal Haredi are a fine example.
they cut off childrens payos and fed them pork on yom kippur. the actual finalization of the state coming into being was announced on the radio in israel on erev shabbos bein hashmashos. they plan beach festivals and pride parades. i dont know why more examples need to be given. the chazon ish held it was yaharog vi’al yaavor. do you have a bigger midda of hakaras hatov then him?? your sentiments are misplaced. the frum mks constantly have to fight the rest of knesset when they try to take away said stipends, which are only there in the first place to allow them enough olitical clout to further their own agendas. the chareidim are constanly villified. does this sound like a government and state that loves torah and the creator? how can you be so blind. these are all facts. why keep clinging to a false hope/dream thats spitting you in the face. i cant understand how thinking people ignore this. the state wants israel to be frumkeitrein.
Toi
I admire your passion and respect your opinion, but please the word ” frumkeitrein” with its Germanic ” rein” is a very deeply upsetting reference to something else, students of recent European Jewish history will understand the reference you infer immediately. Please please realise the value and importance of words, it belittles our tragic history and is deeply upsetting
tahini- i appreciate your understanding as not writing me off as a fanatic which seems to be a fad; especially to those who do nought but echo the words of geolim. if i can explain the reference, which, i assure you, was intentional, without anyone jumping to conclusions or automatically saying im downright nuts then i will. odds are that when it comes to these things people arent interested in listening. whatever misplaced love they have seems to over-ride logic and simple explanation. the argument is that if indeed this is the objective of the state, though no liberal-minded member here will ever admit that the actions of a 60 year old state from its inception till now would logically define its agenda, then in truth its worse then said referance. why? i preface that i do not in any way wish to minimalize what im referancing; rather, that the listener understands the gravity of what we’re dealing with. R”L, kedoshim beyond numbers to be apreciated were killed. that, nebach, was a dor that was lost, along with RYs and gedolim. after that, klal yisroel moved further into galus and started anew. B”H we’re witnessing today more learning, al kol ponim in quantity then ever. imagine though, if you will, what would klal yisroel look like if said medina was, in fact, succesful in promoting and carrying out its agenda. if youre convinced by 60 years of anti frumism as to what theyre interested in doing to the whole klal yisroel then that would mean the discontinuation of connection to real judasim and serving Hashem. in short, everything that gives klal yisroel a right to be the am hanivchar would CV”S be gone. goodbye. kaput. thats the pshat in the reference. im sure by now youve written me off as nuts, but i expected as much.
brainy: As I already explained, I was being sarcastic.
Toi. Certainly do not think you are nuts at all, but I must vehemently disagree with you! Surely that is the fun of debate and discussion, alongside upholding our values and different views on yiddishkeit. BUT I must say if people feel the need to totally disown the State they must be respected and allowed to do so, but not live, breathe and be protected anywhere near it. Sure in the early years tensions were high, how could they be otherwise with such a mix of ideas, peoples all seeking co-existence. To demonise a country where Jews from all over the world can seek safe haven is one thing, to live there and demonise it is another.
Toi, I’ve curious why you are so focused on the army. The same kfira govt provides electricity.sanitation busses etc. Do you abstain from them too? What about a passport?
Toi: I don’t think the country wants to get rid of Frumkeit. They have many opposing goals to deal with. Their main goal is to allow every citizen to have whatever degree of freedom and security that they want-religious or otherwise. They have to deal with fierce anti-religious and anti-government factions. Can you imagine any other country allowing such a large group of people to peacefully exist who declare that one of their hopes is that the country will no longer exist? Anywhere else on Earth that would be called sedition.
Also, in the army the make you keep Shabbos so long as your duty does not involve Chillul Shabbos. Plenty of people told me stories about punishments non-frum guys got for being caught smoking on Shabbos.
Health, only Satmar holds of your pshat.
Toi, I think that you are a troll in reality. Still, I’ll repeat: your claims are inaccurate and exaggerated and present a distorted picture.
mdd: Brisk and others (Rav Shach, Chazon Ish, etc.) also holds of that pshat.
mdd-i already said. this isnt my position. i dont formulat emy own positions. the above is the opinion of previous and current gedolei hador. maybe what you and others here call their shitos and feelings are just that – feelings- and nothing more. you cant hope to serve Hashem to the fullest based on feelings alone. even if you really want to keep succos today and not in a few weeks, and you think it will make you close toi Hashem, you would obviously would be mistaken. in the same light (though i obviously exaggerated to make a point) the feelings youve developed for the state dont make it a part of yiddishkeit, as much as you wish it would. only what we are told by our gedolim to be correct and in service to Hashem is a valid means of serving him. so if they say yaharog vial yaavor im inclined to listen. and obviously i dont mean only the army. i mean the general idea of its validity. the jewish nation only has a right to be called that when we unite under the banner of torah. if we pointedly do not, which the medina seemingly doesnt make a priority, then how is this a jewish ideal? and i assure you, if canada would have tried to en-masse abduct children from a life of torah; from a life of having anything to do with Hashem, i’d oppose them too, even if they didnt claim to be the salvation of yidden.
Toi: There are Gedolim who also don’t hold that way. The real issue boils down to do we throw out the whole thing because it needs major improvements or do we accept the good parts and disassociate from (or try to fix) the bad parts. No one thinks it’s anywhere near perfect.
Brainy, why are you getting all upset? This woman obviously wasn’t talking about your shtetl. Clearly, your shtetl had a different custom from hers.
Obaminator, you must realize that there are differences between what the Satmar Ruv held and what Chazon Ish held and what Rav Shach held and what the Brisker Rov held. It is very important to be well-informed about the shitos and about the metzios.
Rav Shach allowed the Frum parties to be part of the Government!!! Kefira?? Yehareg ve’lo’ya’avor??? Wake up!
the state consists of atheists who want to be like the goyim. that was the whole point of the burning desire of the secular zionists to form the state. to be a proud and safe independent nation like all the others. not to be different. they hang their heads in shame at the “weaklings” of europe who “went like sheep”. they hate anything that reminds them that they are different from the other nations. they hate peyos, they hate beards, they hate Frum Yidden, they hate the Torah and all it stands for. when golda meir was given a kosher meal at the white house dinner she was furious. this is ultra typical.
for political reasons they have to make certain concessions to religion. this burns inside them and they have never stopped fighting against it. as time goes on the concessions are less and less, whenever and wherever they can avoid such concessions they do so.
the basic composition and creed of the state is to be pig-eating, Torah hating, embarrassed, would-be assimilationists.
Without getting into any arguments, the fact is that so many frum Jews live in Israel who are keeping the mitzvos and learning Torah, and that itself is at least partly due to the efforts and mesiras nefesh of the Israeli army. So we should all show our hakaras hatov to them for that.
“Without Israeli soldiers to defend us, where would our EY yeshivas and kollels be not to mention our dear precious Torah true communities”
Actually, the truth is quite the opposite. Without the E”Y Yeshivas and Kollels to defend us, where would our Israeli soldiers and the rest of the state be?
Make no mistake about it. They don’t protect the frum communities and thousands of Bnei Torah. It’s in the Zchus of all the Torah that the army is able to protect its citizens.
Moderator 80, Zionists wanted to have a state where they thought they could be free from antisemitic persecution.Period. They could have been very frei without creating a state. I do not for a second believe that they were moseir nefesh for the Medina just to take others off the derech.
middle, yes we should have karas ha tov to the soldiers of the army
Mytake, why did Dovid HaMelech ever go to war? He should have sat and learnt.
he did both
both are necessary
but the learning is the ikar
the army is the hishtadlus that Hashem requires, ever since Odoms chait
The degree of hate towards the state is frightening, not least because it involves an ability to ignore the dependency of large sectioNs of the community on state benefits and protection whilst demonising it beyond belief. Sure there are secular radicals who despise all that is Torah true, but there are many sincere Torah fearing Jews serving in the state. Modertor 80 may I ask why we cannot have a ” proud and safe independent nation” of our own, repeating oft told stories about secular leaders mocking the Torah serves to smokescreen the reality of our situation. Israel is a nation under threat
It is very hard for Israelis who are Torah fearing Jews and send their sons to do their duty and see those that will not serve, but are happy to be protected. THis is not Tsarist Russian where jews avoided the draft, this is Eretz Yisrael. We are protecting our holy places. Life is not perfect, if you want autonomy, do not depend on others, that is not Judaism, that is parastic. No one says the state is perfect but it exists and it protects even YOU.
I do not for a second believe that they were moseir nefesh for the Medina just to take others off the derech.
i neither said nor implied this was the reason for the state, just to take others off the derech. if you would read my post or if you knew anything truthful about the founding of the state you would know this. but the state that they wanted (the reasons for which were explained in my post) was to be one free of the archaic, weak, embarrasing lovers of Hashem and His Torah
i dont deny the good that comes from their being a state. and i am grateful to Hashem for it.
but the ignorant naive worshippers of the state should understand what its nature is, thats all.
No one naively worships the state, we just want it to stay alive. With life comes hope, teshuva and change, look at the growing numbes of Torah fearing Jews in Israel, even Netanyahu’s own family!
yes we want it to stay alive
yes we have hope there will be change
yes there are growing numbers of Torah observant Jews in Israel.
Moderator-80…what’s your thoughts on the Header Program? Clearly not all Zionist are as you describe…Or are all Religious Zionist just misguided?
While I understand there are Atheist Zionist, there are many who take their Judaism very serious…There are several prominent Yeshivas that combine learning and Military service with a love of the Medina. It may not be perfect, but what community is?
i specified secular zionism in my post.
its not a question of having faults that need to be corrected.
it is a question about the very essence of the state, what it stands for, the principles upon which it was founded and continues to promulgate and strive for.
The State was founded by religious as well as secular zionists. Just because the secular zionists had intentions to destroy Judaism does not mean that everything involved in the State has those intention.
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