Anti-Face Mask YWNCR

I have observed multiple respected rabbonim not wearing masks in shul. There are frequently a few people wearing masks, and I doubt the rav has a problem with it. I would be shocked if he did.

Kids are getting destroyed by staying home from school. You can wear two masks or more if you want, I don’t care, but please do not keep your kids home from school, I beg of you.

DY, so if your respected Rabonim do not object to people wearing masks, what stops people from wearing them.

I am sure there are some kids that need to be in school. At the same time, there are a lot who could benefit from being more with their parents. As a thought experiment – is there ONE class you’d like to learn together with your kids? Humash? Alef Beis? Science? Math? Gym?

Most of my kids switched to online schools pre-Corona. They are both at school and at home. They, as I, rarely wear masks.

There is a difference between online schools and regular schools trying to do online and hybrid. The former saw no changes except longer enrollment lines. The latter, yes, struggle sometimes despite best efforts, although CTLawyer seem to report that his family is doing fine, reporting progress, relative to in-person, similar to ours. The main mistake schools made when trying to be online is frantic attempts to replicate in-person experience with everyone hanging over magic zoom. the right way is to give students well-prepared work, with online tests, and teachers focusing on lectures and follow up with students.

I think the most frustrating thing for parents to see is when kids do not study or misbehave, but you need to realize that things were not better at school, it was simply out of your sight. Frankly, if you think, you have to be a very bad parent to match influence of tens of wild kids that your children are encountering daily.

@daas-yochid Chas v’Shalom! I would never insinuate that any Rov is incompetent (unless I’ve heard it from a different Rov whom I trust). Please stop putting words in my mouth. What I am saying is that the reasoning that I’ve heard from the Rabbonim and other authorities about allowing unmasked crowds is, well, lacking.

Mid 2020 there was no end of letters in frum magazines and papers from doctors and organizations begging people to listen to the guidelines, and the response was non-existent. It’s not even a question of knowing the guidelines, it’s that the seem to know the guidelines but then ignore them. The best reasoning usually boils down to what you said about forcing people to do something they find uncomfortable. But that’s something that is a major part of a Rav’s responsibility, so it’s disturbing that they draw the line here. Also, it makes no sense since there are plenty of communities that are more than happy to mask up full time in shuls, schools, stores, and simchas.

All this leads me to one conclusion: The Rabbonim (at least those who pasken that masks are optional) don’t believe that there’s anything to be done about COVID. That masks, social distancing, testing, travel restrictions, etc. won’t prevent people from getting sick. This flies in the face of not only all conventional logic, but also what pretty much every expert on the topic is saying. So they Rabbonim aren’t trusting the experts. Why not? Perhaps because they are being fed faulty information. Maybe people are being told that the experts are far from certain (they aren’t). Maybe they think that it’s still a matter up for debate (it isn’t). Maybe they just think that all the experts are anti-Semites seeking to destroy Yiddishkeit (including the Yeshivish ones?).

Kids are getting destroyed by staying home from school

Exactly. Unintentionally, you hit the nail on the head. That is why masking is important. Like I said many many times before. We can’t lockdown until COVID goes away. What we could do is try and follow the guidelines as much as possible so that we can still live mostly normal lives and not have a dangerous virus run unchecked in our communities. Out of all the guidelines, one of the least disruptive ones is to wear a mask. Do that (along with social distancing, etc.) and the COVID risk from school will be minimal enough that we don’t have to weigh one against another.

Which begs another question. You are against wearing masks. Are you also against the more difficult things people have to do in these times? Are you against families quarantining for weeks if one member has COVID? Are you against small simchas? As you against preventing people from traveling? Are you against isolating and getting tested every time someone has a fever over 100?

@madealiyah I’m still baffled by your reasoning. If everyone wears a mask (and social distances, etc) it can help prevent thousands of deaths. The negative effects minimal, at absolute worst. Why shouldn’t we wear masks? You keep mentioning “rights” but your definition is unclear. What “right” does an individual have to drive without a license? What “right” does someone have to fire off a gun in a public area? What “right” does a person have to not wear pants in public? You are ironically correct in one way. We do lose our freedoms. When said “freedom” can cause millions of deaths. So yes. COVID is causing thousands of deaths a day. If we take away people’s “right” and “freedom” to go to a store without a facial covering it can drop those numbers significantly.

@daas-yochid

I explicitly said that these Rabbonim (who have no problem with an unmasked indoors crowded minyan ) are aware of the CDC guidelines. They just choose to ignore them. And their reasoning for ignoring them is extremely disturbing. I don’t think it’s unreasonable for even extremely intelligent people to believe patently false information. Especially these days when it’s very difficult for someone unaccustomed to modern media to know what to believe.

A shul where 90% of the people have had Covid, and the other 10% are spread out,

OK, hold your horses over here, this is a big change of pace. At no point did you say that we are talking about cases where there’s herd immunity. Because that’s a whole nother ball game. I do know that many shuls have rules about when people can take their masks off, based on when they had COVID or a vaccine. I’m not thrilled with it, but I’m not against it either. Was that what you were talking about this whole time?

My issue is most shuls do not have 90% infection rates. There was some thought that back in June of 2020 that COVID ran its course in frum communities and herd immunity was reached. That turned out to be wrong when Elul came and brought a horrific din v’cheshbon on many many people.

Furthermore, you say “90% had COVID”, but when they had COVID is extremely important. Within the last 3 months, fine. Six months ago? Not great, but OK. Earlier? Most people who had COVID lose their antibodies after six months. So a shul where everyone had a fever in Av and decided to unmask now has to go back to acting as if no one is immune.

DY >> when you have a shul where 90% of the people have had Covid, and the other 10% are spread out

if you have 90% of people who were sick, you were doing something wrong.

>> claiming all these rabbonim are being fed

It is possible to be aware of information and still telling their followers not to take certain measures. Biggest motivation would be thinking that their community will be severely damaged by lack of shuls, schools, all institutions they spent years building. One Rav I heard early in Corona on focused his very emotional speech (on the phone) mostly about dangers of Internet. The extreme example of pursuing this protection was an official document that hinted that healthy people should go get tested to reduce the positivity rate, so that the government stops bothering us.

Still, this public position does not take responsibility away from individuals. If you think that you can survive some challenges, why wouldn’t you try to keep someone, including yourself and your family, safer? It seems like your [SAD] excuse might be that you live in such a community where everyone is getting positive anyway. If this is indeed so, and not rhetorical, you should all sit on the floor and discuss why you all let that happen.

@madealiyah I pashut don’t understand why you keep bringing up the flu. Everyone wearing masks to stop the spread of the flu may help save a dozen or so people a year. That’s a very hard number to justify. But we are not experiencing the flu, we are experiencing COVID-19 where masks can help save hundreds of thousands a year. Do you not see the difference?

I’m guessing you and AAQ live in some relatively small jewish communities.

@daas-yochid @syag-lchochma Why? Because the shuls that decided to ignore COVID restrictions which resulted in 90% infection rates were mostly in large communities? That doesn’t sound good at all.

Wow, both your brains go to some really odd, and not very kind, places.
I said you must be from relatively small communities because many of your comments indicate that you live in small communities. Your perceptions and comments about your surroundings don’t match those of people in big communities. For instance if i said i waited for the cholov yisroel milk delivery you could assume i dont live in Lakewood. That’s all. The rest of the garbage you added to your posts was figments of your own unfortunate imaginings toward me.

I have no idea what you are trying to say

>@madealiyah I pashut don’t understand why you keep bringing up the flu.<

I give up.

I don’t know if you really don’t understand or you’re just faking it. Either way, I am done with masks and you can continue to obstruct your breathing in the utmost comfort and insist that others do the same, as long as you stay at your side of the pond.

All the best.

It takes more than just wearing a mask, or just “social distancing”. The 6 feet are not a hard and fast rule, that’s if you’re not talking yelling etc, and if you have good ventilation. If you have no ventilation, you need more than 6 feet.
An naked mouth, shouting, spits as far as coughing in someones face. 20 something feet.

Hands, face, space, and ventilation.

Don’t feel like you’re doing proper and get uppity based on one line from the CDC, who is usually in disagreement with the rest of the world or is always too late with the info.

>> you care less about those who died of Influenza

My kids scored one win when talking with a friend with a non-mask father – the other kid ventured a thought that there are more people dying from car accidents than from COVID. When they jointly checked the numbers, that kid started going to shul in a mask next week and soon even father started wearing a turtleneck where he could hide his chin.

@madealiyah I love your translation BTW. Though I did notice something missing. Like the word “right”.

You say that I don’t care about influenza deaths, but then you’re the one who doesn’t care about COVID deaths. OK, I’ll take that. I’ll agree to not caring about the one person out of 3 million who die, if you can admit that you don’t care about the one person out of six thousand who die.

A part of me believes the flu comparison is a red herring, but I do believe your disregard for the developmental and emotional damage these restrictions have caused/are causing is criminal. Escaping death but living in hell isn’t something to brag about. And playing a numbers game in this area is inexcusable.

@madealiyah I love your translation BTW.

Thanks.

Though I did notice something missing. Like the word “right”.

It’s:
זכות
Why’d you ask?

You say that I don’t care about influenza deaths, but then you’re the one who doesn’t care about COVID deaths. OK, I’ll take that. I’ll agree to not caring about the one person out of 3 million who die, if you can admit that you don’t care about the one person out of six thousand who die.

I don’t want you agree to people dying, I don’t think that’s moral.
However the reason I can’t agree with you on the ‘people die so you must mask’ reasoning, is that I would also be required to mask for the flu.
If you can help me out on that I might be able to agree with you.

Yes, I know Influenza is less dangerous than Covid.
But please please please don’t play the numbers game.
Human life is more than a statistic.

@MadeAliya The problem is that זכות doesn’t mean “right”, it best translates to “privilege”. The difference between the two is that a “right” is something that everyone can do and it cannot be taken away, barring extreme circumstances. A זכות is something that you are awarded. So what you’re saying is that we can only earn the זכות of walking around without face masks and social distancing.

You obviously don’t speak Ivrit.
(Not judging, you might live in Ramat Beit Shemesh.)

@madealiyah Two questions:

1. Why are you so against wearing a mask?
2. Do you believe what epidemiologist have been saying that if 90% of people would wear masks when around others, we could have prevented most COVID deaths?

MadeAliya is asking a good question – where is the boundary for risk? What does Gemora mean by “saving one life = saving the whole world”. I understand halakhic guidelines as what is seen as normal in daily activity. This is, of course, relative. There were times during human history where COVID would not be considered much comparing with damage by other illnesses and by people to each other ….

But before doing a cut-off, we need to first order threats according to their danger and describe costs of preventing them, and then apply some limits based on danger and costs. Naturally, Jewish considerations might be different from US government .. for example, there is an issue of your own decision in a famous case where you are at the wheel of a train that is going to hit 5 people, are you allowed to turn to the different track where you will hit “just” 1 person…

but, back to basics:
it seems that current COVID dangers are way over car crashes and flu. So, it is worth paying attention to before addressing flu.
what about costs – many here listed mental, learning, societal costs. Ok, so let’s list what we can do to address COVID sorting from those that are easy on people. At the same time, some might be machmir especially on themselves if they value their Yiddishkeit.

Some simple ideas, tell me whether you are doing them or are they high maintenance?
– open windows in shul and school
– not flying for vacation
– ordering delivery from the store instead of going there
– learning with your child for one day a week, or forming a small group with neighbors, instead of sending to a crowded school
– going one time less to shul, or not talking there, or not staying for kiddush

Some of this may require a small effort or even cots, but, I think, not more than shlepping to buy shmurah matza or buying an esrog mehadrin. Presumably, those who are not machmir in this, simply do not consider this a mitzvah, but just a consideration that they can entertain lightly “how about the flu”, rather than asking shailos and learning tosafos.

Some simple ideas, tell me whether you are doing them or are they high maintenance?
Ok

– open windows in shul and school

Not if it’s cold outside. Was never my decision anyhow.

– not flying for vacation

I hardly do that anyway, but is flying for business safer? Why do you ask about vacation?

– ordering delivery from the store instead of going there

I did that in the beginning.

– learning with your child for one day a week, or forming a small group with neighbors, instead of sending to a crowded school

No, no, chas v’shalom except when the yeshivos were closed or we were in quarantine.

– going one time less to shul,

Unfortunately, didn’t go to shul for months when they were closed, but after they opened, no

or not talking there,

Good idea anyhow. When it was okay to talk, stayed six feet away from people who were unmasked and hadn’t had Covid

or not staying for kiddush

Yes, I didn’t go to kiddushim except to say a brief mazel tov.

Funny you should mention hand sanitizer. From the begining i believed that using hand sanitizer was much more productive than masks. And my theory was that the guys who call the shots knew that too but didn’t want to have to supply it so they kinda dropped it early on, way earlier than they should have, and opted for pushing masks which you would purchase yourselves.

Can we talk about hand sanitizer?

I use bleach for my pesach cleaning. I didn’t know that people use hand sanitizer. Where did you get this idea from?

My friend says his wife keeps hiding the vodka, so he uses hand sanitizer instead. It doesn’t taste as good, but does the job.

🤣🤣