Anti-Face Mask YWNCR

@torahvaluesoverparty We can agree now that COVID is killing 1500 people in the US daily that masks are necessary. We can agree that if COVID will “only” kill 100 people in the US daily that masks will not be necessary. I don’t know where the line is drawn, I’ll leave that to people smarter than me. Right now it’s clear that the line hasn’t been passed yet, so let’s worry about whether or not to wear masks when we start to approach it.

@daas-yochid Ah it was you. You double down and claimed that I was lying when I said “You called Hatzalah on a man choking to death on a mask”. What was my lie? That the man wasn’t choking, he was “struggling to breathe”. OK. Sorry, whatever veracity you had went out the window at that point. I exaggerated the story to prove a point: that if someone had Hatzalah called because a mask inhibited their breathing, then many people would have had Hatzalah called. But they weren’t, QED.

Look, I don’t deny that there are people who are psychologically incapable of wearing masks. Your friend (if he exists) was probably having an anxiety attack. But don’t pretend that masks are dangerous. Especially when it’s imperative that we try to wear them as much as possible around other people. Anyone who is having psychological difficulty wearing a mask (the only possible difficulty) needs to see a therapist ASAP. They are no different than an alcoholic who cannot drive without getting drunk first.

Oh and I googled “Asthma and masks”. First five results were from some pretty reliable sources and all talk about how masks don’t affect asthma unless the someone regularly needs machines to breath. I am not diving into the weird part of the internet just to find one or two obscure conspiracy sites that bolster your argument.

You have yet to bring a single rational argument about how the mild psychological affects of mask wearing somehow trump the major sakana of not wearing them (see: my drunk driving moshol).

I am not diving into the weird part of the internet just to find one or two obscure conspiracy sites that bolster your argument.

Not conspiracy sites. Real stories, on sites which actually are in favor of masks. But you won’t go past five sites because you don’t want to see anything behich contradicts your made up reality that masks are no big deal.

You have yet to bring a single rational argument about how the mild psychological affects of mask wearing somehow trump the major sakana of not wearing them (see: my drunk driving moshol).

Real life. Conversations with mechanchim.

I woud tell you to speak to rabbonim and mechanchim who don’t insist on masks and ask them the reasons, in a sincere way, but I’m afraid you are not able to drop your bias and hear real answers and accept that there’s another side.

@daas-yochid Let’s get this out of the way, on the two sides of this argument, pro-death and anti-COVID, there’s really only evidence to back the anti-COVID side. For one, you’re getting pedantic about minor details in order to avoid addressing my points. Whether Hatzalah was called or almost is irrelevant when the facts remain that masks are not physically dangerous but not wearing masks are.

If you want to quote a source about masks and asthma, don’t tell me “just google it” when “just googling it” exclusively brings up stuff that directly contradicts your main point. Tell me where to look.

I woud tell you to speak to rabbonim and mechanchim who don’t insist on masks and ask them the reasons, in a sincere way, but I’m afraid you are not able to drop your bias and hear real answers and accept that there’s another side.

Yeah, I’ve spoken with mechanchim and Rabbonim. All the Rabbonim in my city have spoken again and again how important it is to wear masks to shul. As did the Rabbonim in nearly every other place I know of, except for those that are pro-death. Even the New York Times, in its recent anti-Semitic hit piece about COVID and Israeli Chareidim, admitted that the Rabbonim are constantly asking people to wear masks. Every non-dorming Yeshiva near me has strict mask rules. I believe it was Rav Yaakov Bender SHLITA that was approached by people asking him about the psychological effects of wearing masks and he bluntly said “There’s no increase in suicides”. If you’re going to be pro-death, you’re going to have to have a better argument than “Well some Rabbonim say it’s OK”.

@MadeAliya Oh that. Yeah, I wear glasses with my mask. If you’re constantly fogging up, you have to get a different mask. Or just take them off and clean them. I’ve never found it anything more than a minor inconvenience. I think if we’re making a comparison to being anti-COVID or pro-death, COVID is a little more inconvenient than a couple of minutes of having foggy glasses in shul.

“on the two sides of this argument, pro-death and anti-COVID, ”

With these words you have illustrated your inability to have a conversation.

We went thru this begore. We explained that you ignored and manipulated much of our words. We even got you to hear it. But boing…you seem to have relapsed.

Either learn to listen to the words of the person you are dialoging with (it’s called being respectful) or close your computer and go talk to a wall.
For the umpteenth time, it’s not the message that’s the problem, it’s the inabolity to have a conversation.

You cant misquote people, misrepresent their comments, skip half of their points and call it listening.

I have told you my doctor said i don’t need a madk and – you told me i read it online.

DY told you something he saw – you said he got it from a whatsapp.

I told you i spoke to several doctors IN PERSON who said the masks won’t stop the spread – you said i should try speaking to doctors.

Ad nauseam

Face reality sir,
You. Aren’t. Listening.

Were you a pathological liar before Covid, or is this an effect of the lockdown and restrictions? Maybe the psychological impact of wearing a mask?

“on the two sides of this argument, pro-death and anti-COVID, ”

With these words you have illustrated your inability to have a conversation.

This is right on the mark. If Yserbius would speak to 1000 rabbonim and mechanchim who disagreed with him, he would disregard all of it because they are all pro death.

The fact is that there are gedolim on both sides of the equation. But not according to Yserbius, because by definition they aren’t gedolim since they’re “pro death” r”l.

“You literally leave me no choice but to call you pro-death since you have made it abundantly clear that you don’t care about people dying from COVID”

Based on the above lies, you literally leave me no chouce but to call you a liar, manipulator of facts, incapable of having a two way conversation and, you have proven you can’t even process things you don’t agree with.

Skipped the rest. I’d rather converse with GH about tds. At least it’s a two way conversation.

@syag-lchochma Nu? Lies? You are talking about a global pandemic and minimizing the one thing that we could do to help save people with minimal effects on our own lives and you call me the liar? How many doctors have told you not to wear a mask? How many Rabbonim?

Wearing masks save lives. You and the others are trying to frame it as a personal choice that people shouldn’t be shamed for. That is like saying driving drunk is a personal choice that people should not be shamed for.

And you continue to harp on my little distortions (most of which are stupidities, like saying I was lying because I said “called Hatzalah” when the original comment said “Almost called Hatzalah”) while ignoring the facts that your pro-death “opinions” are endangering people.

@syag-lchochma So let’s not shame people for not wearing masks. Let’s respectfully educate them and criticize those who choose to promote dangerous fictions. Would that be OK with you?

I am willing to receive information if you have any information to give. But no. You have nothing to give. You are just yelling. Everything I say you pick on with insults of “LIES! SHEKER!”. We aren’t arguing because you haven’t put forth an argument. So far in these four pages of comments, about 90% of your responses have been you claiming that I am unreasonable without actually explaining your position or attacking mine.

@daas-yochid What truths did I deviate from that undermined my argument?

But off of the top of my head: (some may have been unintentional; I’m not a mind reader)

You lied about the veracity, details, implications, and context of the incident I witnessed

You lied about masks being comfortable

You lied about masks not impeding communication

You lied about the original disinformation anmbout masks being just one Tweet

And your most egregious and offensive one is calling people who have a different opinion than yours pro death.

Let’s go back in time a little. I’m going to repost my early comments on mask wearing that haven’t been addressed properly. I want to know what you all have to say:

“Since we don’t know for sure who has COVID and who doesn’t, everyone should wear masks as a measure of Bein Adam LaChaveiro to make sure we don’t C”V accidentally make our friends ill… I wear a mask because I care about you and don’t want to make you sick. Please wear a mask so that I don’t get sick either.”

” A mask is a silly, stupid, little item of clothing. It’s not difficult to wear, it doesn’t cause any sort of damage (yes, there is some psychological problems associated with mask wearing, but they are far outweighed by the benefits), they are cheap, and easy to find. So (EDIT: excluding the one in a thousand with health problems preventing them from wearing a mask) anyone who refuses to do this one silly little thing that can probably save lives is clearly either uncaring, or brainwashed by a community that is.”

“There is no way to fully mitigate mental health and economic issues until the pandemic is over. The best we can do is try to protect as many people as possible which involves some sacrifice. If we tell people to act as if everything is normal, we’ll Chas v’Shalom have a repeat of Purim 2020. If we tell people to go into lockdown until everyone is vaccinated, it will be just as bad.

So we compromise. You can go out, but please wear a mask. If it’s between locking up 100 people who can’t wear a mask or locking up 1000 elderly people because it’s dangerous for them to walk around when there’s unmasked people spreading COVID, I don’t think there’s much of an ethical dilemma as to who’s mental health we should be more concerned about.”

“I do not respect other’s “right” to not wear a mask anymore than I respect other’s “right” to drive drunk. It’s a danger to others to pretend that a pandemic doesn’t exist.”

I don’t believe I said that.

It’s not an emunah shailah.

You and @syag-lchochma have yet to even begin commenting on that.

Oh boy, another lie. You just don’t stop.

Correction: I was mistaken

As I said, some of your lies may have been unintentional, but then again, it is not easy to take your word for it when some are so blatant.

@daas-yochid Let’s get real over here. You called Dr. Fauci a liar for retracting his statement about masks and admitting he made a mistake. Then you went ahead and did the same to me. So your definition of truth and lies is already built on some really problematic grounds.

“You lied about masks not impeding communication ”

“Let’s get this straight: Wearing a mask is not a big deal. It doesn’t restrict oxygen, nor increase CO2 levels. It doesn’t make it hard for people to hear you, ”

There’s a difference between “impeding communication” and “hard for people to hear you”. Wearing a mask makes it harder to communicate but not really harder for people to hear you.

The problem with our conversation, is that you keep insisting on derailing any discussion we’re about to have by nitpicking. And we’ve been going for so long, your list of nitpicks has grown to the point where you refuse to engage until every one of them is addressed.

I’ve addressed your false accusations of me being a liar and I’ve addressed your nitpicks. Now, your turn. Please address my points. Namely this one:

Masks work, everyone should wear them when around other people. The negative effects of mask wearing pale in comparison to the advantages they bring in protected people from COVID-19

Please address my points. Namely this one: MASKS WORK, EVERYONE SHOULD WEAR THEM WHEN AROUND OTHER PEOPLE. THE NEGATIVE EFFECTS OF MASK WEARING PALE IN COMPARISON TO THE ADVANTAGES THEY BRING IN PROTECTED PEOPLE FROM COVID-19

I would definitely agree that if two people who haven’t had Covid are face to face with each other, it would be safer for them to wear masks. I don’t believe it’s been scientifically proven, but it is mistaver.

There’s a broader issue that you dismiss too easily, whether forcing to people to wear masks for long periods of time is really so insignificant as you suggest it is. I’m not going to bother trying to convince you that it’s emotionally unhealthy for someone to be forced to do something which they abhor (whether it’s physically or psychologically uncomfortable is irelevant) for long stretches of time, because you have demonstrated an inability to hear anything outside of your own personal experience. You are apparently not that uncomfortable in a mask, and that’s fine, but you are not the only person in the world.

A certain rabbi wrote an article lamenting that many of his younger members have not come back to shul after the initial lockdown ended (I found it ironic since during the lockdown, he publicly, although without naming him, lambasted a different rav who kept his shul open on a limited basis). I’m told many of those people (not specifically in his shul) have suffered tremendous decline in their frumkeit. Going to shul isn’t just to accomplish a technical din of tefillah b’tzibur; it is immensely important socially, and for many people, it’s a tremendous connection to frumkeit.

Hearing from many people how much they hate masks (again – physical or psychological doesn’t matter), I definitely feel that when all of the minyanim insist on masks, many people simply won’t come. And the casualty isn’t just tefilah b’tzibur, it’s their whole yiddishkeit.

I’m all in favor of mask only minyanim for those who want them or need them from a safety perspective. But not having mask optional minyanim has a huge, not small, downside, despite your dismissal.

Our communities, as well as society at large, have suffered tremendously over the past year. A big part of that has been the people we lost r”l and the people who got sick and still haven’t fully recovered. But there’s also a different “pandemic” which is only beginning to be addressed, and that is the emotional, and for us equally important, spiritual decline many, many people have suffered.

When multiple rabbonim who I respect, and have respected for many years, do not insist on masks in their shuls, and in fact don’t wear them themselves (at least the ones who already had Covid), I will not accept as anything less than complete insanity the notion that they are all “pro-death”. I believe the explanation is as I said, that they believe the downside of insisting on masks is worse than the safety risks.

There are also rabbonim for whom I have immense respect who do insist on masks, and that’s fine too. Unlike you, I will not accuse them of being “pro ODT” or “anti emotional health”. I understand that in a very difficult situation, they prioritize physical safety. You should have the same respect for rabbonim who have assessed and for their kehilos prioritized the other, non physical downside, and not mandated masks.

I’m not trying to convince you to take your mask off, just (probably hopelessly) trying to show you that there are intelligent, responsible, and caring Torah leaders who don’t believe we should all be wearing masks in all of the situations you do, with legitimate reasons.

(I post this knowing the risk that you will completely distort my words, perhaps claiming that I said that if someone wears a mask in shul, they will instantly turn insane and/or frei. I hope that’s not the case, but rather that you will begin to hear that those who disagree with aren’t therefore evil.)

@daas-yochid Unfortunately the immense decline in Torah and teffilah Rachmana Litzlan was the second worst thing to come out of this pandemic. Fortunately, we have discovered a mostly safe way to continue learning and davening b’tzibbur. And that’s to do it with certain guidelines in place. Maybe you don’t need a Vort, L’chaim, Chasuna, and Sheva Brachos with hundreds of people in each. Have multiple minyanim so people can be more spaced out. Hand sanitizers on every table. And mandatory masks. If the masks don’t work for you, that’s fine. You can walk outside and take it off for a few minutes if you want. And it’s worked. COVID spread has been almost non-existent within shuls that take those precautions.

Look I understand that people hate the masks. Heck, I hate them, they are annoying and bothersome. So I get why people will balk at a mask mandate. But that doesn’t make it right. It’s important to overcome the discomfort and difficulties to help keep this pandemic to a minimum. So it’s extremely important to stress to those who don’t want to wear masks how they need to try and overcome this personal difficulty and that this is one thing we can do that can help save many lives. Shoin, half of frumkeit is being told you have to do something even if it’s difficult for you! Rabbonim have no problem telling people to keep better kashrus, dress with more tzniyus when it’s hot in the summer, or to keep away from other pritzus, and those are things people find very difficult to do. So why are masks different?

You say less and less people are coming to shul because they don’t want to wear masks. I’ve seen the opposite, less and less people are coming to shul because the other people don’t want to wear masks. People are afraid of catching COVID and when they see how casual many frum places are with the whole deadly virus thing, they stop going.

Which is why I don’t get your casual opposition to it. And when I say “you”, I refer to yourself personally and all the other Rabbonim, community leaders, and others that are just OK with it. Look at the frum community in Chicago, or Los Angeles, or Baltimore. Or even most goyishe communities in the world. Nearly every supermarket, shul and school, with few exceptions, has a mask mandate. And you know what? The shuls aren’t empty, the people aren’t having panic attacks, and everyone has no problem hearing their friends when shmuzing during davening. Are the people in those communities such sheep that they will do something that they hate and find pointless just because the government said they have to? Or maybe they are all supermen, specimens of amazing feats of strength to have shuls full of people wearing masks for an entire Yom Kippur?

Wearing a mask isn’t nearly as big of a deal as you make it out to be and that’s a simple fact.

The one other thing you keep coming back to is what Rabbonim have been saying. (Personally, the Rabbonim I am familiar with and speak with have all been adamant that masks should be required in shuls.) I’ve been hesitant to talk about this because it’s something that seriously disappoints me. The truth is that Rabbonim are not infallible. Most of them get their news filtered through trusted gabboim who are as much subject to fake news and bias as any am ha’aratz. There are some Rabbonim, (Rav Dovid Cohen SHLITA comes to mind) who make an enormous effort to investigate a secular issue themselves before giving advice or a psak based on it. If one of them say something science minded, I will perk up and listen. Then unfortunately there are other Rabbonim who I greatly respect in terms of their Torah learning but have learnt to ignore what they have to say regarding other things. A prominent Rav once put a man I know in cheirim after only speaking with the party who felt wronged (he later retracted and apologized). There’s a well known Rav who published a kuntrus stating that astronomers are wrong and the sun goes around the Earth. Another infamous incident involved a Rav who promoted the dangerous conspiracy theory that measles are harmless and the vaccine is dangerous. There’s a quiet incident where a gadol assured a piece of technology that was designed and vetted by well known posek, and the issur showed clear ignorance to how the technology worked. Do I even have to mention the various actions of some frum people who believe that every answer to every question is found in the transcripts of their late Rav’s speeches? So would you please excuse me if I don’t have a fanatical devotion to what some people think of as Da’as Torah.

Heck, I hate them, they are annoying and bothersome.

Wow, you admit to that now.

Maybe one day you’ll admit that maybe, just maybe, you’re not really smarter than all of the talmidei chachomim (and it’s not just one or two) who haven’t mandated masks in their yeshivos/shuls/kehillos. Maybe you’ll admit that it’s arrogant and stupid to think that they totally messed up.

It’s one thing when a couple of talmidei chachomim go against the overwhelming majority. I still think rather than being “disappointed” (what an arrogant, condescending term!) you should be at most confused.

But when several gedolei hador, and many, many responsible, wise, and caring leaders don’t insist on masks for their kehilos, you should admit that perhaps you are missing part of the equation. Which you clearly are.

Pro-death I started saying that on this thread to provoke a reaction and it seems to have worked.

The reaction you got is that you lost any shred of credibility you may have had.

BTW, you should look up the definition of opinion vs. fact. You have it all wrong. Just because you feel strongly that something is true does not make it fact.

I have to admit, I feel very bad reading this thread.

I am arguing for wearing masks and people are saying it is hard on them (or on some others). I don’t know how to respond, as I rarely wear a mask myself.

@madealiyah Why are you looking at this as a binary outcome? That either we never wear masks or we always do? You seem to want me to provide you with a number that I don’t know, so fine I’ll make something up. When US COVID deaths go down 90% from their peak and stay that for one month we can stop wearing masks.

Furthermore, you keep stating that your main problem with wearing a mask is that it is uncomfortable. Like I keep repeating, that’s simply not a good enough reason. There are many things that are uncomfortable but we do anyway.

@daas-yochid

Maybe one day you’ll admit that maybe, just maybe, you’re not really smarter than all of the talmidei chachomim (and it’s not just one or two) who haven’t mandated masks in their yeshivos/shuls/kehillos.

That day is today: There is little chance that I am smarter than any of the Talmidei Chachamim you are thinking of.

When did it become controversial to say that my Rabbonim are correct and other Rabbonim are not? Especially in a matter unrelated to Torah, this isn’t “Elu v’Elu”. Look how the Chovos L’vovos discusses medicine in terms of the theory of bodily humours. Do we say that he is absolutely correct and every doctor and Rov who ever paskened a medical shaylo alive today is wrong?

You know, I was confused at first with the reactions, but now after talking to people, reading what people have been saying, and listening to various speeches, I have an idea as to what’s going on. So I’m just disappointed that the people who surround many of our Rabbonim that are supposed to be the ones doing the research on secular matters, are instead resorting to believing everything they hear in the shul coffee room. Were you not disappointed two years ago when several Rabbonim were fooled by fake news and started saying that vaccines are dangerous?

@syag-lchochma

Dangerously distorted view towards gedolim and daas torah

I would argue that it’s others who have a dangerously distorted view. People are nebbuch treating some gedolim as nevi’im (l’havdil) where they cannot possibly be wrong even on matters they are unfamiliar with. I am not sure how these individuals view a machlokes.

Rav Breuer ZT”L famously retired when he turned 80. He said that his reasons are that he always refused to pasken on shaylos that he couldn’t personally investigate and once he became old he didn’t have the koach to look into every new situation. I can’t find any flaws with that logic and he’s been proven right time and time again. Do you fellas not remember the debacle 15 years ago with Rav Elyashiv ZTL’s Gabbai and the psak the Rav gave on Indian sheitels?

DY: These rabbonim are paskening that there is no chiyuv to wear a mask

did you hear this first hand? did you ask to clarify – where and under what conditions?

could you please ask the Rav you asked whether it is MUTAR to properly wear a mask under different conditions, such as in the airplane when required, in federal buildings, where it is required, in the offices, where you can be fired, in the stores, in the street, where people see that you are Jewish?

If not, this would mean that this ISSUR to wear a mask is comparable to ISSUR of avoda zara.
Maybe he meant only the masks that have avoda zora painted on them?

did you hear this first hand?

Have seen first hand. Maaseh Rav

I don’t understand the rest of your post.