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“And, let’s be honest over here, is there anything I can say that you won’t immediately accuse me of being a bully or worse?”
Probably not, forcing someone to do something TO HIMSELF to make you feel good is a form of bulling.
May I suggest before continuing we all read Rabbi Avi Shafran’s latest article entitled “Mask Ask”?
Including the part where he says he felt like he was suffocating when wearing a mask?
MadeAliyah,
“Probably not, forcing someone to do something TO HIMSELF to make you feel good is a form of bulling.”
Yserbius123 is not arguing for people to wear masks in order to assuage others’ fears or make them feel good, he is arguing that it helps protect others’ health.
Yserbius123,
“Let’s take a step back. Do you personally think that masks are dangerous to wear or not?”
For the majority of people when worn for relatively short periods of time? No. They do cause us to work harder to breathe, which again for most people over short duration is doable, but may be more problematic for extended periods of time or for people with other difficulties. I feel they also generate more face touching due to pulling on or adjusting the mask, and it is a challenge to keep them sanitary.
“Do you think that most people who don’t wear masks do so because they are physically incapable of wearing one or because they are uncomfortable?”
I think the reasons some people do not wear masks or resist wearing them are complex and differ from person to person.
Yserbius123,
“May I re-iterate my suggestion to read Rabbi Shafran’s article before going veiter? He basically says the same things that I said in the same tone that got me accusations of being “disrespectful” or “hateful”.”
In his column, Rabbi Shafran mostly discussed his own personal experiences and journey, and he respectful exhorted people to try wearing the masks and getting used to them. He didn’t cast aspersions on anyone or write in a highly dismissive and angry manner.
@avram-in-md What about wearing a mask for 15 minutes to an hour at a time and taking it off for breaks in secluded corners when there are no people around? In my shul on Yom Kippur and Rosh Hashanna I saw the majority of people going several hours straight wearing masks with no visible issues. There were some people who felt too uncomfortable, so they would walk outside for a few minutes. There are very reasonable ways to wear masks, even for people who have difficulties. Which is why the whole “debate” baffles and angers me, I really can’t understand why there are still so many people ignoring COVID-19 restrictions.
@daas-yochid You ignored the crux of the article where he says that wearing a mask is a matter of comfort and it’s something that people can get used to, no matter how difficult it is.No, I didn’t ignore it, I just didn’t comment on it.
You insist that wearing masks is no big deal, not just that you should do it anyhow.
Yserbius123,
“What about wearing a mask for 15 minutes to an hour at a time and taking it off for breaks in secluded corners when there are no people around?”
Sounds like good ideas to me.
“There were some people who felt too uncomfortable, so they would walk outside for a few minutes.”
Why didn’t you say this before?
“Which is why the whole “debate” baffles and angers me, I really can’t understand why there are still so many people ignoring COVID-19 restrictions.”
I think the issues are far more complex than, “I feel uncomfortable” for many people, so assuming it’s all about discomfort or difficulty may make it hard to understand where others are coming from, which makes it hard to reach them.
@daas-yochid You claimed that wearing a mask is physically impossible for some people and even dangerous for many. The point of Rabbi Shafran’s article is that it may be difficult for some people, but it’s something almost anyone can get used to and very important that everyone tries. You can’t just not comment on that and pick-and-choose the sentence you liked.
@avram-in-md Good to see we’re finally on a similar page. My point of view hasn’t changed though. It frustrates and angers me to see so many people waltzing around indoors in public places with no mask and places where nobody says anything about that. You can’t expect me to have empathy for someone who refuses to wear a mask for even 15 minutes of mincha.@Yserbius123
Wrong, wrong, wrong.
In Israel masks have been mandatory for half a year, and although in the beginning everyone wore it religiously, people are using them less and less.
They have become a case of תפסתה מרובה לא תפסתה were most Israelis think ‘if I don’t wear a mask over my nose, why can’t I visit my grandparents?’
The only one’s ‘getting used to it’ are those who are scared of dying of COVID (if they don’t have foggy glasses of course)@MadeAliya You said, and I quote directly,
How can anybody demand that people should wear a mask to protect others?
So excuse me if I take your words with some extreme skepticism.
I do not feel comfortable wearing pants, but I usually do wear them outside.
Can I take them off every 15 minutes if I am overheating?In fact, we had one guy at YK services who felt it necessary to wear mask on a beard davka to talk to hid neighbor. I made a quick sign with my hand as if to show him that his zipper is open. He quickly looked at his kittel and then back at me with a question in his eyes. Then, I made same zipping sign near the mouth. I was not sure how it will be accepted, but it was.
I do not feel comfortable wearing pants, but I usually do wear them outside.
Can I take them off every 15 minutes if I am overheating?
That is so ridiculous its funny🤣
But masks are not everything.@Mottel You’re right. Masks are only one part of the puzzle. We need masks, social distancing, limiting public gatherings, limiting close contact, exposure awareness, quarantine procedures, etc. And it’s still only partially effective which just goes to show how difficult this virus is and how important everything we do to prevent it is.
If lockdowns work, why is israel locking down for the third time? you wanna answer that the virus slows when we lockdown and spreads when we open up, so shouldnt we have one continuous 5 year lockdown?(destroying countless lives in a non-covid manner…)
Do blue lockdown states own better covid statistics than red states? Are we supposed to follow and listen to politicians who endlessly break regulations they set forth for us? Or deborah birx who is “retiring” after being caught traveling with family members from 2 other households? Or media networks which promote “certain” science, and “certain” doctors, while silencing and censoring those who offer a different stance? As far as im concerned, masks MAY work, and so i will wear a mask WHEN IT MAKES SENSE TO WEAR ONE! That means not in my car, not outdoors, and not indoors where there is no problem to social distance…mask wearing started off as “wear one when social distancing is not possible”. Now, its practically a religion. And one who refuses to wear one in a situation that doesnt warrant mask wearing, is demonized as a selfish animal. This virus has overall been tremendously politicized. But who is surprised.@daas-yochid You claimed that wearing a mask is physically impossible for some people and even dangerous for many.
No, I didn’t. That’s how you distorted my words, and you were called out on it.
Masks are only one part of the puzzle. We need masks, social distancing, limiting public gatherings, limiting close contact, exposure awareness, quarantine procedures, etc.
So stop saying how easy this is when the reality is that you are demanding huge, destructive life changes, not just mask wearing (which itself you underestimate how difficult it is for many).
@yserbius123
”
HOW CAN ANYBODY DEMAND THAT PEOPLE SHOULD WEAR A MASK TO PROTECT OTHERS?So excuse me if I take your words with some extreme skepticism.
How about demanding that nobody drives in case they crash into you?
Or maybe tell your neighbors not to turn on the stove because they might burn your house?
Yes, COVID is deadlier, but at what point do we say ‘this is deadly enough to interfere with peoples lives’?
Is it just a numbers game?@torahvaluesoverparty I don’t think lock downs work as well as they are supposed to. I think a big issue preventing lockdowns from stopping the virus is people who outright ignore it. They do work to slow the spread, though. That’s been proven. But they can only work if people are careful afterwards too.
@daas-yochid You said that you saw a person choking nearly to death because of a mask. So yes, you did say that wearing a mask is physically impossible and dangerous for many people. I am not “demanding huge life changes”. I’m asking that people wear masks. That’s literally all I’ve been saying this entire thread.
@madealiyah Please explain to me how wearing a mask while going to shul, the supermarket, school, or when talking with a friend is such a major hindrance on your life.“You said that you saw a person choking nearly to death because of a mask.”
How does an intelligent individual have the chutzpah to lie outright, distort and misrepresent words that ANY 5th grader can dispute?! Have you NO self respect or are you legitimately that communicatively impaired?????
And you think you’re frustrated…Please explain to me how wearing a mask while going to shul, the supermarket, school, or when talking with a friend is such a major hindrance on your life.
The irony here is that upthread you claimed to be flexible, but when people keep telling you how uncomfortable they feel in mask, you can’t accept it and ask for an “explanation”. Just accept how people feel if they fell you they’re uncomfortable. (That’s literally all I’ve been saying the entire thread despite your distortion.)
@daas-yochid You said that you saw a person choking nearly to death because of a mask. So yes, you did say that wearing a mask is physically impossible and dangerous for many people.
I don’t know why you insist on double, triple, and quadrupling down on my your distortion of what I said.
That’s literally all I’ve been saying this entire thread.
Until you added a bunch of other things.
@daas-yochid You know what? I take back what I said before. I wasn’t just advocating for mask wearing, I was advocating for a lot more, like social distancing. But I still fail to see how any of this is some major destructive force on people’s lives that’s worse than COVID-19. I guess quarantining is bad, but that’s an extreme measure only when someone has direct exposure or showing symptoms, so it’s still pretty important. Maybe making large simchas? I guess, I mean it’s part of our culture to make massive chasunas and bar mitzvahs, but maybe it’s time to rethink that? A Chasan and Kallah married with 100 people in attendance outside and wearing masks will still be the same married as the couple who did it in Marina del Rey with a crowd of thousands. Schools? This is one place where I agree with you. Schools and Yeshivos should not be closed. But they still should be taking reasonable precautions, like encouraging kids to wear masks, and limiting how many people the average kid comes in contact with.
Nothing of what I’m saying is unreasonable, but it’s the people being difficult about the small things like masks (and making outlandish claims regarding their mythical danger and difficulty) that are also probably not trying to make an effort to change the big things either.
I had another longer reply that addressed a lot of what we’re discussing, but some of these replies came in before it was mod approved. It may never be mod approved, so I’ll try to rewrite it if I don’t see it later.
@daas-yochid Why did you nearly call Hatzalah on an individual wearing a mask? Please explain that situation so we can move past it.I have, on multiple occasions, addressed the difficulty the uncomfortableness of wearing masks. I have also explained, on multiple occasions, why it’s still important to move past those difficulties, and how it is actually possible.
@syag-lchochma If you speak with respect you will be spoken to with respect. If continue you refuse to acknowledge that @daas-yochid claims they once saw someone almost in need of Hatzalah because of a mask, there is no purpose in treating your words with respect.Oh my gosh. Are you for real? You have reposted several times that DY claimed people are dying from choking on masks to which you were called out over and over tho you continued to insist he said that. Now you completely change your tune and ask why I am denying the words he actually stated? You can’t possibly be doing that unintentially.
YES, he DID say that he once saw someone almost in need of Hatzalah because of a mask.
NO, that is NOT how you have been retelling it nor what I called you out on. PLEASE STOP bouncing all over the place!!
@syag-lchochma I’m sorry if my words are a little off, but I’m really not getting something? He called Hatzalah on the guy presumably because he was choking, yes? I’m not trying to start a fight over here, nor exaggerate anything, I really thought that’s what he meant. It was in the context of a discussion about whether masks are dangerous and @syag-lchochma said yes they are and they almost called Hatzalah on someone walking out of shul because he couldn’t breathe. I said “choking” instead of “couldn’t breathe”. What am I missing?
“Please explain to me how wearing a mask while going to shul, the supermarket, school, or when talking with a friend is such a major hindrance on your life.”
Just one question, if the government passed a law that makes mask-wearing mandatory…forever (even after COVID viruses will exist, why not stop them all?).
Would you support such a law? If not, why? Masks aren’t disturbing are they?@YSerbius 123, i meant that all these covid restrictions have gone way too far already. Thhis whole stupidity of kochi veotzem yodi has gone way too far. At this point, as it has been from 3 to 4 months ago, covid has been used as a political standpoint.
And in regard to people having breathing difficulties with masks, i dont know if anyone was at Ha’Rav Dovid Feinstein ZTL’s levaya but if you were there or watched the video replay, there was an announcement on the mic,”Hatzulah” ,that was because a chusid right next to me who passed out because of a mask. He came to the stairs so he can pass out again,sitting down. This isnt a joke!!! He was less than 5 feet away(and for all those who are”concerned”about corona, i was wearing a mask and so was this guy)!!! He didnt want to call hatzulah but it was called anyway. THIS ISNT A JOKE!! If youre healthy, youre mostlikely safe,smmoking will kill you faster than corona will!@madealiyah Is that what’s happening? No. So stop with the hypothetical narischkeit Masks are annoying but necessary. If they weren’t necessary, I wouldn’t wear one. If the government made a law about masks when they aren’t necessary I would ignore it. Right now I wear a mask in public because it may help prevent the spread of COVID-19 not because there’s a law about it.
Masks aren’t a big deal (even if they can be difficult for some people) and neither are most of the other COVID-19 restrictions. But they do help prevent the spread, so please listen to the guidance of the Agudah and the Moetzes and follow the restrictions.
@mottel I don’t agree with all of the government’s policies, and I find it ridiculous that a massive pandemic is being used as a political football, but at the end of the day there are certain precautions that we have an achrayus to take. Masks are one of them and probably the one that causes the least amount of interference with one’s life.I don’t think I’ve ever seen a large outdoor levaya where Hatzalah wasn’t on call for people fainting. The poor fellow was probably on his feet for too long in the sun.
Let’s get this out of the way: there’s no danger nor loss of oxygen that can come from wearing a mask. Period. The difficulties that come from wearing a mask are about comfort and psychology. And these are things that not only are possible to overcome, but are necessary to overcome so that we can live our lives without resorting to quarantines every other week.
Question for Yserbius123: now that we have “new” information that masks work (which according to you we never knew before), are you going to wear a mask for the rest of your life? After all, the flu (and other contagious diseases) are also dangerous (not as much as Covid-19, but still dangerous), and masks are no big deal.
That’s assuming Covid is gone, but if what some experts are saying, that Covid is here to stay, is true, that makes it even more of an issue.
So, will you wear a mask forever?
PRO-Face Mask YWNCR… Just making sure.
Making sure of what?
@daas-yochid Why do you not want to encourage people to wear masks? They work, which we all know now, so why are you so against them?
The reason mask wearing is important for COVID is that COVID isn’t just “some flu”. It’s far more contagious than pretty much any other common virus out there. So even if the “hospitilization rate” is the same as the common flu (it’s not, COVID has a far higher hospitalization rate), the infection rate still makes it much more dangerous. What that means is that where a flu can affect 100 people, COVID-19 will affect 10,000. Meaning that in a theoretical closed population you are much more likely to see people hospitalized and dead from COVID than other common viruses. Which is why mask wearing is important as it lowers the infection rate. B’chasdei Hashem we will see more and more vaccinations as the days go on and im yirtzah Hashem that will mean that we will see lower and lower rates of both infection and hospitalization, making the virus much less dangerous so we no longer have to mask and socially distant.
My question always was, what exactly is the line drawn that decides when masks are necessary? If everyone would wear a mask, won’t we save at least one life from the flu? If banning car travel saves at least one life, shouldn’t we ban all car travel? What is the line drawn, and who gets to draw it?
@torahvaluesoverparty Will putting a small piece of fabric over your mouth and nose affect your life in any meaningful way in the same manner that not driving will?
When we reach the point where we can be reasonably certain that the vast majority of people are not spreading a dangerous virus, then I will be comfortable with everyone taking off their masks and stopping to socially distant. Right now the opposite is the case, unfortunately. In every group of 1000 people there is a reasonable certainty that at least one of them has COVID-19. So if all 1000 gather in one spot without masks or social distancing, there is a decent fear that many of them will catch it and some will end up seriously ill.
making the virus much less dangerous so we no longer have to mask and socially distant.
Less dangerous, but still dangerous. So why won’t you just wear the stupid mask?
And BTW, I am not against wearing masks. I do wear one when the situation warrants it. If you want to wear a mask, go right ahead. If you want to stay away away from places where not everyone is masked, I respect that.
All I want is for you to respect others’ decisions not to wear masks in all of the situations you do. They have good reasons.
@daas-yochid We’ve done this song and dance before.
A) I do not respect other’s “right” to not wear a mask anymore than I respect other’s “right” to drive drunk. It’s a danger to others to pretend that a pandemic doesn’t exist.
B) No, they do not have good reasons. The reason is “it’s uncomfortable” which isn’t a good reason. Yes, there are people who the comfort is too difficult, but there are also alcoholics who can’t drive without drinking first. Both need a doctor to help them before they put others in danger.
Yserbius
“Will putting a small piece of fabric over your mouth and nose affect your life in any meaningful way in the same manner that not driving will? ”
First of all this does not address my point on the flu, and secondly, what is your point in saying this? Is it that, because ‘not driving ‘ has its own ramifications, it’s therefore ok for everyone to drive even if people will be killed?
Who is to make that decision?
And btw, while physically, mask wearing isn’t a big deal, mentally, it’s not simple. At all. Abnormality in a person’s life can cause huge repercussions.Yes, Yserbius, wearing a mask for hours at a time for month after month after month has produced a terrible effect, socially and emotionally. You get so caught up in the physical aspect that you completely ignore that part. But it’s very real, and while I respect those who have decided to prioritize the physical danger, I also respect those who have prioritized the other very real dangers.
>Will putting a small piece of fabric over your mouth and nose affect your life in any meaningful way<
You don’t wear eyeglasses, do you?
You don’t wear eyeglasses, do you?
lol@torahvaluesoverparty According to the CDC, pre-Corona the flu killed about 100 Americans a day. COVID kills about 1500. So when we reach a point where COVID becomes as dangerous as the flu you can get back to me with your silly invalid comparisons.
@daas-yochid No, it doesn’t. Mask wearing isn’t nearly as big of a deal as you anti-maskers like to make it out to be. I don’t think there’s anything I can say that can convince you otherwise as I know you’ve already thrown your hat into the anti-rational camp where a random WhatsApp message confirming your own personal biases bears more weight than any number of epidemiologists, doctors, Rabbonim, and politicians.
@madealiyah Please explain your moshol to this silly am ha’aretz. Not wearing glasses will affect people because they won’t be able to see. Not driving affects people because they can’t get places they need to go. Wearing a masks affects people…. how?I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again. You people with your “respect those who choose not to mask” are essentially saying “my own personal comfort takes precedence over your health”. It’s gayvah, pure and simple. It’s not a position that demands any amount of respect.
I already know that at least one of you (honestly I don’t want to name names because I’m too lazy to look through old comments) invented a story involving the dangers of masks then called me a liar because I repeated the story a little differently when calling them out on it (I think I said “couldn’t breathe” when the original fiction was “choking”). So I’m sorry if I’m coming out disrespectful, but I think it’s pretty obvious that you’ve lost all reason for anyone to respect your position.
When all else fails, double down on your lies and distortions. And add to them.
You are the one who lost all credibility, because although I suppose you can doubt the story happened, you have no way of knowing that it was “invented”. Among a bunch of other lies and distortions.
Yserbius I never suggested flu kills as covid does. You totally missed the point (on purpose). My point is, WHERE is the line drawn? What if the flu killed 300 a day? Or 500 a day? Who draws the line?
I am not too lazy.
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/anti-face-mask-ywncr#post-1924084
It’s a 100% true story, someone did almost call Hatzala, and the point was to demonstrate that some people do have trouble breathing (google asthma and masks) and you distorted it and said I claimed Hatzala was running amok treating patients for mask wearing. And doubled and tripled down on that lie, along with others (masks don’t create problems with communication!).
You totally missed the point (on purpose)
Unfortunately that’s his MO
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