Anti-Face Mask YWNCR

I’m more opposed to social media bullies masquerading as do-gooders, attacking large segments of the frum community.

THIS has been exactly my point since june. But asking people to be mentchlich got interpreted as anti mask.

@syag-lchochma The issue is that I don’t think anyone is following their doctors. People find “doctors” on the internet or they pick and choose what they want to hear, then ignore the advice of their local physicians. If people were listening to doctors, many more people would be wearing masks, not making large simchas, and it’s very possible we would have seen less deaths and illness.

@syag-lchochma I learned a new phrase the other day called “The Paradox of Tolerance”. Basically, it means that you can’t put all sides of every argument on equal grounds, else we will be tolerating Nazis for their viewpoints. I find that this falls into that category. While I’m sure there are some health care professionals who aren’t as aggressive in recommending masks as others, I doubt there are many. And if there are any who say that wearing a mask makes no difference, there certainly isn’t enough to account for the sheer number of people who claim to quote them. I mean, the biggest frum doctors offices in Brooklyn, Monsey, and Lakewood have all advocated for mask wearing as much as possible. Whomever these alleged doctors are that say that masks don’t help at all certainly are a minority and don’t even begin to account for the sheer numbers of people who refuse to put on masks.

I think a lot of it comes from people hearing what they want to hear and ignoring the rest. A relative said to me the other day that he doesn’t wear a mask because he heard that a certain prominent doctor said that only a full hazmat suit will protect a person from COVID. I asked if Dr. Hazmat tells people not to wear masks, and what does he think of masks protecting well people from someone who is ill, and he didn’t have an answer.

Yserbius – it seems to me that you have so much confidence in your viewpoint that there really is no room for anyone else. Our legitimate concerns become imagined, physical strughles become psychological inadequacy and serious conversations with prominant doctors become unknown searches online. I appreciate your having stepped back a bit to hear us out (each separately) but i don’t hear a lot of flexibility. I do feel bad that it is difficult for you to make room for other realities but i appreciate that you are being sincere in your position. I hoped to open your eyes to a wider reality. I failed. But at least i tried. Best of luck to you and stay safe.

@daas-yochid If you’re asking me to name specific people, places, or organizations, sorry but you’re question will have to go unanswered.

No, of course that’s not what I was asking.

You seem to be upset at individuals who don’t wear mask (aside from institutions which don’t mandate it).

Are you upset only when they refuse to wear masks where they are mandated, or even where they are optional?

There is something called emunah and bitachon which people seemed to have lost these days.A minyan is essential. PERIOD. There is no reason why people shouldnt daven with a minyan. Dont think that kochi votzem yadi and flipping out about stupid masks is gonna save you from corona, cuz if you do, you obviously havent gotten the message that hashem sent us. We thought that we knew everything, the doctors thought they knew about all the deadly sicknesess, and hashem is saying “Oh really? Lets see about that.”and then turned the entire worl upside down in a matter of days. I agree, if you are not feeling well, use your seichel. If you feel really bad, talk to your rov and ask him what to do.People make a mistake thtat they only listen to the doctor and not the rov. You take the info that the doctor gave you and you explain it to the rov (or any daas torah)and ask how far you should follow it.The rov knows about refuos froma toradike point, even though he isnt trained. YOUR DOCTOR IS NOT G-D. TORAH COMES BEFORE ALL.VENISHMARTEM MEOD LENAFSHOSEICHEM. BUT THAT DOESNT MEAN FREAK OUT!!!!!!!!!

It is wierd but in my community no one wears masks. Not in my work place or in shul I can’t think of any one who social distanced yet none of us has had covid in weeks, yes their was a spike Tisha bav and succos which is funny because Tisha bav is three weeks of no weddings so no geust to catch it from. in my particular chassidus no one passed away from covid and we are very big.(this is my country} in New York is a different story.i don’t see where a piece of cloth that is so thin will save you from this wily disease.
Ask any one they can share you story of people who were locked in their basements and left once to go somewhere or opened their door for just one exception and were deadly I’ll.yet any one that is calm going on with life either got over it or never caught it. Nebach the fear is worse than the illness.

@avram-in-md We have to measure what the bigger danger is: wearing a mask or not wearing one. The people who physically or psychologically are unable to wear masks are very few, perhaps one out of 1000. The majority of those who claim they can’t wear masks, simply haven’t found one that they feel comfortable in and don’t see a pressing need to wear one. So it’s a question of forcing that tiny minority of people who can’t wear masks to be stuck inside until the pandemic is over, or forcing elderly, immune compromised, and other sick people inside until the pandemic is over. Unfortunately, we have to inconvenience the minority (people who can’t wear a mask) so that the majority (elderly etc.) won’t be inconvenienced.

And no. Scientists have yet to find a situation where a fabric face mask has restricted someone’s oxygen. It’s literally never happened. CO2 and O2 can pass through the fabric of an N95 mask no problem.

@crackers

It is wierd but in my community no one wears masks.

goes hand in hand with

none of us has had covid in weeks, yes their was a spike Tisha bav and succos

If no one wears masks, there will be massive spikes followed by a lot of quiet. That’s literally what you’re describing. I believe you don’t know of anyone who was niftar, but I have a difficult time believing that no one in your community got seriously ill from COVID.

i don’t see where a piece of cloth that is so thin will save you from this wily disease.

Truth is, it won’t. What the masks do is prevent a sick person from getting another person sick! Diseases like COVID travel in droplets of saliva and that’s where most people catch it from. If you wear a mask, your saliva gets trapped and you won’t get someone sick. And it’s not good enough to say “But I feel fine!”, because we’ve seen that people can have the virus, feel fine, and still infect other people. Masks are not 100% effective, but it’s effective enough that there’s no reason not to wear one.

“A minyan is essential. PERIOD. There is no reason why people shouldnt daven with a minyan. ”

No it isn’t. And everyone here knows that. Desirable, yes. Essential? Everyone can fulfill tefillah requirements praying alone.

No charlie, you are wrong. You follow your rabbis on halachic matters. And if the halachic matter involves a meducal issue, you supply him with the information. If you want to adk your doctor what to do, that’s medicine, asking a doctor if you can go to minyan is halacha. Doctors don’t pasken halacha. Ask your doctor what requirements are needed to keep you safe, and adk your rav how to impliment that within halacha. Period.

Syag >> No charlie, you are wrong. You follow your rabbis on halachic matters

First, there seems to be a room for being more careful personally. Namely, we feed a patient on Yom Kippur when either a doctor OR a patient say so. Is there an acharon that says a Rav should review their opinion?

2nd, there is a diversity of halakhic opinions here. I was very impressed by R Meir Twersky’s psak early on. I quoted him here before and do not remember any response. One thing he said sounded true: we generally recommend listening to your respected doctor, but due to high uncertainty of the new virus, we should listen to worst fears of several opinions. At the same time, discussing the plans with one of a pretty reasonable local Rabbis, his initial position was “Let’s trust this doctor X”.

Another early warning came from R Heineman: when asked whether it is OK for several families to stay nearby to form a minyan outside, he answered – if you do that at the time when this is forbidden, it will lead to some Jews being denied ventilators by someone saying – they caused it to themselves.

So, when asking for an opinion, you may want to make sure you ask someone who heard enough factual information and has enough historical depth. If you are not sure, provide that information to him.

@syag-lchochma I thought we were being civil, what happened to you?

There is no way to fully mitigate mental health and economic issues until the pandemic is over. The best we can do is try to protect as many people as possible which involves some sacrifice. If we tell people to act as if everything is normal, we’ll Chas v’Shalom have a repeat of Purim 2020. If we tell people to go into lockdown until everyone is vaccinated, it will be just as bad.

So we compromise. You can go out, but please wear a mask. If it’s between locking up 100 people who can’t wear a mask or locking up 1000 elderly people because it’s dangerous for them to walk around when there’s unmasked people spreading COVID, I don’t think there’s much of an ethical dilemma as to who’s mental health we should be more concerned about.

It may not be for you, but it is for others. And until you develop enough empathy to see that, you will have difficulty convincing them of the correctness of your position.

I was going to respond to Yserbius’ erroneous assertion that masks are no big deal but you said it better than I could have.

It’s a shame you need to resort to twisting my words, along with assorted other lies, to make your point.

Yserbius123,

“You literally invented a story about Hatzalah running amok because everyone was dying from wearing face masks.”

Before we continue this discussion, are you actually anti-facemask and trying to do a false-flag troll by making pro-mask arguments as odious and unproductive as possible? It’s almost like you are working from a playbook of what not to do to persuade others.

Yserbius- you really don’t see the chutzpah in your words? You really think you can distort everyone’s opinions and facts and expect to have credibility? It’s bad enough to distort the words of the health professionals, but a fellow yid right to his face?

Here is your words:

sigh. You literally invented a story about Hatzalah running amok because everyone was dying from wearing face masks.

Here is the quote you are referencing:
And I witnessed a guy leaving davening on Yom Kippur after a half hour because he couldn’t breathe. Almost called Hatzola.

Minimally, you owe him an apology. Really, you owe everyone else one too. Instead of getting random information online, please contact a real doctor with actual knowledge and expetience and then get back to us. But we want to hear what he really says.

@Avram-In-MD and @syag-lchochma I was taking @daas-yochid s story to the logical place. If he saw one person keel over choking because of a mask, then obviously Hatzalah should have been overtaxed in dealing with breathing problems from all the people wearing masks. But they weren’t, nur vus the story was a fabrication.

You mentioned a study yourself that shows no difference in oxygen or CO2 levels after wearing a mask. Why are you blibing shver on it? Because they didn’t stick a CO2 measurement device right in the guys face? Would it matter if the individual was masked or not if they’re literally breathing on a CO2 meter? Would it matter if the individual was old or young, sick or healthy, if they’re still measured as breathing the same air?

If someone says that something that is physically possible but difficult for them, and it’s a very important thing to do because the safety of others is at stake, my response would be “try harder”. For some people it’s difficult to go through a day without alcohol. Would you tell them that it’s OK for them to drive and put people in danger?

I tried to have empathy. I really did. But I lost it maybe about six months ago. It may have been some time between when I first got asked “Are you makpid on masks?” and when I watched a live feed of a simcha where hundreds of people were dancing together without any concern for COVID. Or maybe it was the time when a Yeshiva Bachur broke the rules to attend a simcha and ended up putting several of his Rebbeim in the hospital.

So when you tell me that people have “difficulties” with masks, I ask if they are the same people that still go to crowded mikvahs every morning. If they are the same people who ignore social distancing restrictions. If they are the same people who put their whole family on a plane to visit friends. Because in my experience, 99% of the time they are.

You’re probably not going to like my doctor’s opinion.

I would like to hear it. I would be interested to hear a single local doctor say to one of their long time patients “It’s better if you don’t wear a mask”. In my community, there are basically four practices with frum doctors that people go to. And each one of those has been extremely loud and open that not enough people are wearing masks or following other COVID protocols.

I was taking @daas-yochid s story to the logical place.

There’s nothing logicical about your conclusions. The story is 100% true, and your fantastic distortion is one of a series of falsehoods you have posted here.

You even had the chutzpah to post that someone is just as able to be heard through a mask as without, which is blatantly false as anyone who has compared can attest to.

Your assertion that masks are actually not uncomfortable is another big lie as many can attest to. Maybe for you, but your unwillingness to accept that others have a different reality is a distortion of the truth and indeed reflects the lack of empathy to which you admit.

No point in responding when you refuse to hear what others are saying and need to distort in order to make your point.

Yserbius123,

“I was taking @daas-yochid s story to the logical place”

No, you made up your own story that was different from DaasYochid’s and then made a wild extrapolation from that made up story. Logic isn’t even in the same galaxy.

“Because they didn’t stick a CO2 measurement device right in the guys face?”

Lol, if you actually read the study’s abstract or what I wrote about it, you’d see that they did indeed do that.

“I tried to have empathy. I really did. But I lost it maybe about six months ago. It may have been some time between when I first got asked “Are you makpid on masks?” and when I watched a live feed of a simcha where hundreds of people were dancing together without any concern for COVID. Or maybe it was the time when a Yeshiva Bachur broke the rules to attend a simcha and ended up putting several of his Rebbeim in the hospital.”

So you need to make a choice. Do you actually want to try and effect change, or do you just want to spew hatred like an out-of-control fire hose? Given your inability to read and understand what people have written here in this thread, I’m guessing you have failed to understand where people are coming from “in real life” as well. So perhaps the source of your frustration is not due to those around you.

“I would like to hear it. I would be interested to hear a single local doctor say to one of their long time patients “It’s better if you don’t wear a mask”.”

He feels the response to the pandemic is wildly disproportionate and has caused considerable collateral damage that was unnecessary, and does not require his patients to wear masks during visits. I don’t know how you define “local” doctor. He practices in my area, but he is not frum.

“In my community, there are basically four practices with frum doctors that people go to. And each one of those has been extremely loud and open that not enough people are wearing masks or following other COVID protocols.”

And the loudness in press releases and twits and fakebooks and the like is actually counterproductive in my opinion, because the community perceives that the yelling is meant more for gentile consumption. “Look at me! I’m embarrassed by my own community!” Really, has anyone anywhere ever said, “oh wow I changed my mind because somebody screamed at me on social media”?

May I re-iterate my suggestion to read Rabbi Shafran’s article before going veiter? He basically says the same things that I said in the same tone that got me accusations of being “disrespectful” or “hateful”.

I have to tell you that if you think your posts resemble Rabbi Shafran’s on any level than you have a lot to learn about yourself. I would seriously recommend you ask someone close to you to sit with you and give you some honest feedback on the gap between what you mean, and what you write.

@syag-lchochma It wasn’t a made up story. If there were private messages on CR I can tell you the Yeshiva where it happened at. Everyone tangentially connected to the place knows what happens and are somewhat embarrassed to speak about it. A different, similar, story happened at the same time in a different place close by.

The scary truth is that COVID-19 may only have a 1 in 10,000 kill rate, but it’s extremely contagious. And there are tons of documented cases where a single person was the vector for infecting hundreds within a very short time. Not to say that this will always happen, but given the “right” circumstances a superspreader event is something very possible. The exponential infection rate of COVID-19 is insane, far worse than pretty much any other common virus out there.

On the other hand, the story about a guy choking on his face mask to the point where Hatzalah was almost called, flies in the face of not only every bit of science and evidence out there but also basic logic.

Look, I started off in a respectable manner. Continuing from the original question of asking people why they are opposed to masks. I think the only thing that may have been controversial was when I said that many people are being ga’avadik by not wearing masks, since a lot of the claims are about “me” getting sick while ignoring the stuff about “you” getting sick.

But everything I said you would jump on and claim that I’m “bullying”. And when I would respond to people who made outlandish claims about the dangers in face masks, I would get frustrated and upset which only caused you to ignore everything else I’ve said and double down on your bully remarks.

@avram-in-md I don’t think you’ll find an honest person who will say that the government’s response to the pandemic was appropriate and proportional. I mean, we aren’t locking ourselves in the basement, not washing our groceries in bleach anymore (at least I hope not!) like what was proposed back in March. But I wonder if you asked your doctor if you should wear a face not when going among other people what she/he would say.

Let’s take a step back. Do you personally think that masks are dangerous to wear or not? Do you think that most people who don’t wear masks do so because they are physically incapable of wearing one or because they are uncomfortable?

How can anybody demand that people should wear a mask to protect others?

I honestly can’t tell at this point if people are being serious or not.

@Syag-Lchochma What do you suggest I should do? And, let’s be honest over here, is there anything I can say that you won’t immediately accuse me of being a bully or worse?