Answers for the tuition crisis

We should probably work politically to get vouchers for the value of savings we are providing for the local board of education. In NYC that’s 18-21k per student. That’s an insanely high number due to unions and other factors. Regardless, 5-8k per student should probably be enough to decently fund a full year of education.

I find it ironic, People are complaning that union teachers are paid high, but have no problem giving some Morah with 7 kids and a husband in kollel minimum wage to teach the kinderlach

ZD:

I agree 100% that the crazy high wages because of unions are unfair and a drain on society. i also agree that our morahs, rebbes, and the bulk of our mechanchim are seriously underpaid. But I take issue with your argument. Having 7 kids is not the school’s responsibility. Nor is the husband who is sitting in kollel.

The notion of sitting in kollel is already subjected to notorious abuse. The obligation on the husband/father is to support his family. The כל כבודה has been trashed in order to prop up the kollel myth. No, I am not anti-Torah, nor do I minimize the learning. It is the culture of dependency and entitlement. Sorry, but that’s a socialist value, and I cannot embrace it. The bnei kollel should be the ones whose future is to return the favor to the community, as klei kodesh, for which they should be properly compensated. They should not be on every government handout known, and their wives should not be running around to feed the family.

Full time learning is either a communal responsibility – one has the capacity to pursue a Torah career, or it is an escape from the responsibility of supporting a home and family. Sadly, the latter is true way too often, and it is displayed as some holy venture when it is not. We have deluded our young boys into believing they will all become gedolei hador without applying themselves to the effort, just by remaining enrolled for a bunch of years and by not accepting jobs anywhere else. We have tricked our young girls into the holy mission of marrying someone who will forever be on the receiving end of entitlement programs, for which they must work at often unfairly low wages. Yes, we have goytes raising the kids, and this is a holy mission.

The tuition crisis is made ever more challenging because the schools have been receiving less and less government subsidy, and they are only a few of the takers in a tzedokoh market that is crammed with competition. Now that many of the previous generation who went to kollel are the parents of the young families, the ability to share tuition with parents and in-laws ain’t what it used to be.

We cannot choke the ones who need to be breadwinners by proclaiming them holy when they avoid the workplace, and placing the burden on the נשים צדקניות who need to be home, כל כבודה בת מלך פנימה, raising the children.

I am not looking to make this thread a debate on kollel life, for which there are many others. But to address in completely outside of that context is irresponsible.

I am not looking to make this thread a debate on kollel life

Lol

You take any possible opportunity to bash kollel. ZD mentioning kollel was completely a side point, and you turned it into one of your classic lengthly kollel bashing essays.

zahavasdad,

“Getting a “Rechnitz” to pay is a bad plan … however that isnt going to work for alot of reasons … How are you going to force them?”

You demonstrate an excellent ability to poke holes in people’s ideas. I’m really curious to know what ideas you may have to improve the situation. I’m being serious.

Short enough for you?

Yes, thank you.

That was one specific case, but most moros are married to husbands who work, but many still struggle to pay bills.

The problem is there isnt any easy solution, Vouchers is probably the only viable one but even that has serious flaws (Like the government having the right to dictate what is taught)

In the near-term, there may be some additional security/transportation/special ed type functions where public funds can be applied to private and religious schools but there is zero political support for school vouchers in support of tuition, at least in those states (NY, N J, MD, CA ) where the majority of yidden are located. Maybe Florida, but even there it will be an uphill fight beyond the limited vouchers already provided. The only long-term solution is for Yidden to budget for their kids’ tuition in the same way they budget for housing, clothing and other essential expenses. Since most frum yidden would not find “public” schools to be an option, there is no easy or direct source of funding beyond contributions from wealthy askanim and families’ own funding.

You communists shouldn’t get to spend my money on your schools.

“The only other viable idea I’ve seen is a communal tax and that also has serious flaws…
If a yid is already paying income and property taxes for local public schools he probably will not send his kids to and also is paying tuition to send his kids to a yeshiva/beis Yaakov, having to pay a “communal tax” ordered by some beis din is more likely a bad Purim spiel rather than a serious proposal. The other reality is to scale back the scope of spending by the Mosdos to match their combined tuition/donation income. That may be a painful choice for some, but its reality.

“The other reality is to scale back the scope of spending by the Mosdos to match their combined tuition/donation income. That may be a painful choice for some, but its reality.”

What exactly do you think can be cut? Yeshivos are on shoestring budgets as it is.

Joseph, two wrongs don’t make one right, and also, you could send your kids to public school if you wanted to.

The “communal tax” is an idea that has been floated around, of course there are lots of hole in it besides someones ability to pay , Would satmar be required to fund more modern Zionistic schools (and vice versa). What about conservative or reform jews in the same neighborhood, how do you get them to pay if they think yeshiva education is a waste (Some conservative and reform jews go to Orthodox synagogues).

The merger idea sounds good on paper, however the classes are already too large so you cannot merge the classes , You probably have to keep multiple buildings (no reductions on mortgage , utility costs and other adminstrative costs) and lastly there is the problem “Whose yeshiva is it” there are people who like to be in charge, Things like Hashghfa (some might seem minor hashghfic differenes but can be made into major issues)

I think when the idea of every jewish kid getting a jewish education first came out, they never thought of how to pay for it for the masses. Orhtodoxy was teetering so only the most dedicated went , there were smaller families so it was easier to pay. You will start seeing more dropouts (You already see some already) as families get poorer (THe high cost of real estate in NYC area doesnt help either), people will have to decdide to pay for expensive housing or yeshiva tuition) the problem is getting worse , not better

Yeshivas must charge what it costs to provide a real living wage to educators.
Anybody who can’t pay should get loans or get charity from outside sources.
Its not a tuition crisis it’s a charity crisis. The implication of tuition crises is that the yeshivas created this problem.
Leave the yeshivas out of it. They arent all equipped to fundraise, and it’s not what we want from them. Why turn rosh yeshivas or school staff into fundraisers?

The dream is school choice vouchers but until then its the old story of the haves and have nots. The schools do themselves a disservice by providing aid they dont have and that has no gratitude in return.
Consolidating yeshivas only works when it makes sense communally and logistically. People need different things from the different schools and sometimes buildings are just not big enough.

The other option is to form a coaltion with other private school groups and seek to gradually expand the very narrow slice of school expenses (security, transportation, special needs kids, etc.) where the courts have allowed public funds to be expended in support of private schools. I’m doubtful, however, that this will provide the needed funding to keep marginal yeshivos afloat. Thats why the painful choice of cutting costs (where most say there is nothing left to cut) is the only other choice to closing the doors.

Why don’t we institute some sort of voucher system where teachers and school employees get vouchers to free or heavily discounted goods and services from Jewish owned vendors and venues. This additional compensation substitute will reduce the income requirements for families of school employees, thereby reducing their need for financial compensation. Then the schools can pay them less and lower tuition for everyone. It’s kind of like communism, but for a good cause and not gov’t controlled.

Why don’t we institute some sort of voucher system where teachers and school employees get vouchers to free or heavily discounted goods and services from Jewish owned vendors and venues.

Who’s paying for those vouchers?

DY:

You wrote: “If you cut teachers’ salaries, you end up with unqualified teachers.”

Good point. What is so painful to us all is that this is not just a prediction. It has been happening everywhere. There are many who look to enter the chinuch field, having spent their most productive years (for training in a potential job skill) in kollel, which contributed little to nothing for classroom management or curriculum development. These young men (and women) may have all the dedication of the Yidden who contributed to the building of the mishkan. However, the psukim there spell out that the tasks were completed by those with the specific talents and skills. Check that out in this week’s parsha. But without the skills, these wonderful people cannot function well, and are stuck resorting to discipline and crowd control strategies to manage a classroom, where the majority of the task needs to be education.

Yes, we already have too many unqualified teachers and rebbeim. The situation has improved noticeably (while salaries did not) by virtue of several training programs for mechanchim and related resources. One must credit Torah Umesorah for leading the way, with several other programs that accomplish a lot. But we are still far from doing the job that needs to be done, and our children are at risk of paying the price.

Even if we insure that all entering mechanchim are duly qualified, there will still be inadequate pay, and the problem won’t go away by fixing the qualification problem.

Joseph, if every child had the right to go to Yeshiva, the Yeshiva would have an obligation to accept them.

Would this idea make YOU want to be a teacher?

This idea has been used for Yom Tov bonuses for either Kollel Yungeleit or melamdim, I don’t recall. Some storekeepers that accepted it grew frustrated quickly. They had to use it on Sale items, essentially losing money.

And the whole “redemption” process can get messy very quickly if the schools drag their feet with payment. We are talking schools that are likely in dire financial straits to begin with, and they may think of it as an extended payroll loan, hoping that by the time the cash is due the (tuition/Tzeddakah) funds will have become available.

Something seems missing from the entire discussion here. We all seem to recognize the desperate need that yeshivos have for more funding. The abolishing of quite a few such sources from government subsidies made a bad situation worse. Challenging the efforts to correct this is that our communities are overwhelmed with charitable needs, and there are hundreds of organizations created to handle many of these. Shall we address the needs for medical and mental health care? How about infertile couples? How about families that are stricken with disabled parents? The pages of all of our frum media are filled with stories of tragedies coupled with desperate needs for funds. One doesn’t need to look beyond these pages to see the tragic variety of needs. How about the collectors who flood our shuls collecting for various individuals and organizations. Amcha Yisroel tzrichim parnosoh. Yet, anyone on the prowl for funding is apt to view his own cause the only one, or at least more deserving than another. That may be sad, but it is understandable.

Now, when people’s parnosoh suffers from limitations, will they cut their donations to yeshivos, their shul, other community needs, the collectors from elsewhere, the organizations for medical care funding, those addressing and helping couples with infertility, hachnosas kallah, etc? This can play on people’s emotions, and the efforts to control that are close to futile.

With all this, the implication from discussions about yeshivos is that these come before any other cause. I do not need to voice a position, just to note that there is a huge range of feelings about this. And this element seems missing from this discussion.

Try this statement. “It is more important that you donate your big bucks to yeshivos than to support families that need to marry off their children.” Does that go over well? Don’t take sides. But consider this.

DY:

Exactly. The tragedy is that while Klal Yisroel is extremely generous, the needs are also great. The limitations are also there, and the casualties of this leave many in the red. Yeshivos are among those who cannot maintain their budgets. So the struggles continue.

ZD: And the British Yidden must move to the US because the government is meddling in the chinuch there and mandating subjects that need to be taught. I think Canada has similar issues.

The only answer is Moshiach. The world is heading in the wrong direction, and NY isn’t far behind when it comes to liberal values being enforced.