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The way I was attacked for my post and accused of not having credentials without you even knowing who I am, is very telling. My point wasn’t to deny that there is an issue with bullying, of course there is. My point was only to caution that in my experience, there are parents who themselves ruin their children by referring to incidents that don’t come close to bullying as bullying. This too could do detrimental damage to a child socially. Again, I am not G-d forbid denying that bullying exists and that it is terribly damaging, I am only cautioning readers not jump to conclusions in other instances, as that could also damage their child. If it is real bullying, in our school we do everything possible to put an end to it as should every institution.
@chaya13, I am wondering why your post is relevant to the topic at hand. The writer clearly states that she has proof of actual abuse. Although there may be times to caution some, by putting your thoughts on this thread, you are invalidating the points that were made.
This is a difficult and painful topic that is for the most part swept under the carpet. It is so hard to get results. And the way that ‘mechanchim’ can stay in denial is precisely by going according to your belief that sometimes people make stuff up. This belief is preventing necessary action for these horrible and detrimental situations.
The writer was courageous to bring this out to the open. Lets use this forum to promote awareness about bullying that is actually happening so that we don’t ruin precious neshamos.
The fact that you write that you are a mechanech makes all us parents feel that much more helpless and hopeless that you can read this post and really not ‘get it’.
I hope you can see the other side so that we can start trusting our mechanchim such as you.@Chaya13
” parent of a child who is imagining something is happening that really isn’t”
Take your head out of the sand!
The letter speaks of the son coming home ‘cut, bruised, scraped and with clothing ruined’
That’s not imagination@ kollelman: Not “schools”. Not “the system”. It’s EACH teacher, rebbe, principal, rosh yeshiva, therapist, parent – each person who doesn’t take a complaint seriously, doesn’t follow through, blames the victim, doesn’t speak up – each one separately is responsible. We need to stop hiding behind groups and systems.
@chaya13. I wrote my previous post prior to your response and I am following up to your response. The reason that you are getting flack for your post is because it doesn’t belong on this thread, and by putting it here, lacks sensitivity.
Do you go to Shiva houses and say that you know people who had the same cancer that the Niftar had, but went to a different Dr. or did a different treatment and lived? Even if that would be true, it would not be the place to say it!
Playing ‘devil’s advocate’, bringing ‘another perspective’ to this thread is dulling the impact of the letter and is hurtful.
Lakol zeman v’ais. This was the wrong forum.@chaya13: Read my post again. I did not attack you, I actually just asked you what your credentials are. What did my “telling” response tell you? I find it interesting that you didn’t answer any of my questions, but simply reiterated what you already said clearly in your previous post.
Methinks she doth protest too much…Mama1
Did not one therapist, rav, or member of the staff at your son’s yeshiva help you at all? Not one Rebbi or Mashgiach or second seder Rebbi, etc. saw what you are seeing?Mama1
I am not questioning your story. I am trying to get my head around the fact that you received no reaction to your problem from anyone! And you have pictures!
(When my second grader was bullied by a fourth grader many years ago, the principal acted quickly and forcefully)I find the extremes of sensitivity and insensitivity among the comments here.
Bullying is a serious issue, bordering on or crossing the border of pikuach nefesh all too often. Every single yeshiva must have training for all staff, teachers, administrators, clerical staff, etc. And the policies for how to deal with every situation must be in place. For a serious, serial bully, experience suggests that measures short of arrest are futile. Many other cases are not as advanced as that, but cannot be allowed to pass lightly. The smack on the wrist of the bully just contributes to the anger that gets dumped on the victim(s), and enables further violations.
Discipline is rarely a preferred modality in chinuch. But it is the only one with an ounce of value in bullying. Bullies do not stop until the pain they incur themselves is greater than the glee from inflicting pain on others. I have heard of some old school mechanchim giving a punishment of writing lines to a bully, or similar gestures. What a complete waste. There was a chinuch moment that was scuttled. It is not rare that a bully is from a family that has some form of clout with the yeshiva, money, stature, family connection to the hanhala, etc. Protecting the bully here is as disgusting and abhorrent as harboring a pedophile who victimizes kids.
Every case must be assessed on its own merits. But bullying is rarely fabricated. And any school that supervises its students properly can have evidence in most cases that do lack the types of injuries that cab be detected visually. Are students supervised during recess? How about before and after school? Do students feel safe enough to bring such reports to the administration?
Why look to protect a school before looking to keep a child safe?
@anonymous123 – it’s ok, even if you are questioning it. You wouldn’t have been the first…
The entire hanhala saw it, I actually once drove up and watched as a hanhala member watched a few kids pushing my son around. But they insisted that this is the way boys normally behave, the occasional cut and scrape is normal boy behavior. I can’t count how many times I was told that as a woman, I “just don’t understand” the dynamics in boys’ schools.
Finally about 8 weeks ago we got them to come to a meeting with a therapist, who, after nearly two hours (we were scheduled for a one hour appointment) finally got them to understand that the pattern was clearly one of bullying. They were silent for a while after that, as it started sinking in. You could actually see the rebbe shrink into himself. He stopped talking for almost twenty minutes. On the one hand I was relieved that he finally understood, and on the other, so furious that it took a professional to convince him, and that he never trusted our words, not once. He kept saying things to the effect of, “how did I miss this”? (FYI I paid for that two hour visit, and many others before and since.) After that it got a bit better in the classroom, but the menahel did not follow through with what we had decided at that meeting. So he endured two more months, and now my son is finally out of there. Now comes the challenge of finding him someplace new.
In case it’s relevant, I have over ten years of teaching experience, and I always told parents, “I know this grade and age level, but you know your son better than I ever can. Together we can give him the best year possible.” I also have a few college courses in childhood and adult psychology under my belt as part of two degrees.So they saw it, but did not recognize it as bullying. How sad and tragic for your son! I am glad that you have a competent therapist on the case and I hope you and your son can find healing and get past this terrible year. Certainly the Rebbi should now speak to the boys and explain the severity of their actions and how they must beg for true mechila. There are many scary stories out there about classes that paid a terrible price for such events.
“Boys will be boys” might sometimes be true, but often it is not. If there were a small chance that someone’s food is poisoned, it would not be dismissed as quickly. If there is a remote chance that the occurrences observed are not “Boys will be boys”, there would need to be some increased observation, investigation, assessment, consultation, something to verify that there is nothing dangerous happening here. It is irresponsible and unprofessional for the school to be alerted to this multiple times, and to dismiss it with the wave of a hand. One cannot cry wolf for everything, but the ease of dismissing it is the opposite extreme, and intolerable.
As for begging for mechila, it is not quite so simple. The interpersonal asking and granting of mechila is a more complex subject than just a ritual of asking mechila. If it is not asked with sincerity, it is a sham. If the victim is not ready to forgive, because of the intensity of his pain, he cannot be forced to grant mechila. These are areas of halacha that are seldom studied, and may well be outside the scope of the kollel learning that somehow was allowed to become the prerequisite for employment in the chinuch field.
Forgiveness is an entire subject, both in halacha and in the professional world. It ain’t simple. It is truly a shame that such subjects are not taught in yeshivos, as they are pertinent to daily life, and should be a prerequisite for marriage.
TLIK, what should be done with 10 year old bullies? Or 8 year old bullies or 15 year old bullies? Should they be kicked out of yeshiva — and not allowed into any other yeshiva? Should they be arrested, as you suggested, and put into juvenile detention?
Expulsion is a last resort for after all other disciplinary measures fail. In the case that the letter was written about, it seems the yeshivah did not make any attempt to stop the bullying.
Joseph
There is a vast gulf between doing nothing and arrests or Juvenile detention. (Going to the authorities would probably get the school into trouble more than the kids.)
What does the menahel do to deal with any trouble-making by his talmidim? Your comments are really ridiculous. Because ten year olds shouldn’t be arrested they should be allowed to do whatever they want?! Chinuch demands a response by the hanhala to such events.Joseph – what should be done”, that is precisely what these so-called mechanchim are paid for i.e to KNOW how to and to be on top of such situations, not to brush it off and dismissing it as “boys being boys” situation. They are in the field and they better know, what actions are to be done, otherwise you do not belong being in that field. Period! Joseph thank G-D you are not a mechanchim.
Mama – all I can say after reading your last post, as a parent, my heart goes out for you, having to witness and see all that done to your child. I sure give you the credit of getting the courage and doing all that needed to be done, and I hope this was a lesson that won’t repeat itself there
Mama, This could have been my post. Same thing happened to my son in middle school (no supervision before school or recess). My ds was new in town and the ringleader was merciless (main bully is now an alcoholic punk 10 years later and went OTD long ago). Then in mesivta there was NO superision in dorms, which could have been easily done by putting bais midrash boys on the floor with younger boys. DS was beaten up early in the year and hanhala said they would handle it. Total complete joke. By Pesach it happened again..much worse. I thought I would need to take him to ER but my older son (in medicine) said he didn’t need to. I still have pictures of him bruised and swollen. I pulled him out then.
Needless to say, the next year he went totally OFF. Became depressed, drugs….the works. We put him finally in a coed day school where everyone was nice to each other. He couldn’t believe people were so kind! It took a while but he excelled in academics and is now graduating from an Ivy League university next year. He still carries very deep emotional scars and is mostly angry at rabbonim who did NOTHING, looked the other way.
I was basically threatened that my other kids would’t find shidduchim. It was ugly! The system is sick!!! I should have gone to the police but was truly intimidated, much to my shame.
Thank Gd for Chabad on Campus that is slowly bringing ds back, with kindness and warmth.OP & Mama & Tamar 60 -“I was told I had no halachic or legal recourse, that if I tried to get help through those avenues
my son would be expelled* and that no other yeshivah would accept him.”Unforunately these things are quite often.
I’ll tell you what I did with my son. It happens in every Yeshiva.
My son was abused by his Rebbe & a boy.
The incident with the Rebbe – He called us up & I felt it was a sincere apology.
No further action was neccessary.
With the boy – I sent my son to Karate & that solved the problem.
The Yeshiva found out about it, but since they couldn’t prove it – he wasn’t kicked out!
If I couldn’t resolve the problem, I’d go to the authorities & sue them!
Most people are too scared, but watch how they would coming running after you – to resolve any issues to stop the lawsuit & prosecution!<Mama1: We need to stop hiding behind groups and systems. >
Thank you Mama, this is the most important sentence in this whole thread. and thank you kollelman as well for your insights. spot on.This is obviously a very serious topic. I’d like to talk about a related topic. About 40 years ago I attended a regular lavish yeshiva ketana in boro park. I remember the 3rd grade rebbe beating me with a cane so badly that my entire leg was bruised and swollen for days. ( and by the way I was a good kid, and had done nothing more than perhaps whisper to a friend). Again in seventh grade we had a old European reebbe who walked around with a wood hanger and used it on anyone who didn’t “have the place”. I clearly remember the CRACK once as he hit a kid’s elbow bone.( the kid never returned to class) We had no recourse. Verbal abuse was a daily occurrence with many of the rebbaim . Amazingly, almost all of us turned out more or less ok. The odd thing is ,I don’t recall any bullying amongst kids. I suppose the horrors our rebbaim imposed on us gave us a common enemy. when Istarted high school I thought I was in gan eden . the rabbaim actually cared about us and every day was a pleasure. We learned to love learning.The memories and all the details of rebbe abuse are surely repressed somewhere in my subconscious.
Dafbiyun -“About 40 years ago I attended a regular lavish yeshiva ketana in boro park”
I grew up OOT, but in the Cheder I was in, beating was common!
The European Rebbies taught the American Rebbies.
Nowadays, beating is uncommon, but it does happen in some places.it was a litvish yeshiva. Not a lavish yeshiva:) Recess was punch ball , “sewer to sewer”
“Amazingly, almost all of us turned out more or less ok. The odd thing is ,I don’t recall any bullying amongst kids.”
Apparently the corporal discipline worked on all of you. Tanach states and Shulchan Aruch paskens that corporal discipline must be used on children.
Joseph:
Here you go again. You paskened, “Apparently the corporal discipline worked on all of you. Tanach states and Shulchan Aruch paskens that corporal discipline must be used on children.”
That is not just a complete misrepresentation, but it is seriously flawed and misleading. There is an oft quoted posuk, which almost every mechanech cites – but does not know the second half of the posuk.
חושך שבטו שונא בנו.
This is loosely translated as spare the rod – spoil the child.
The second half of the posuk reads:
ואוהבו שחרו מוסר.
There needs to be a last resort of discipline to control a child. But discipline does not teach, it controls. Inasmuch as a yeshiva has a mission to educate, the rod has its proper location hanging in a closet, and should not be used very much. The mechanech that believes he can teach by hitting is neither a mechanech, nor is he a suitable role model for תינוקות של בית רבן. He needs a different career. A true mechanech has multiple other tools to use that do not injure, hurt, embarrass, or otherwise have lasting negative effects. If a rebbi cannot produce a listening attentive child, he has failed to succeed, and he needs the negative consequences.
Lastly, the choice of interventions, with full recognition of Shulchan Aruch, is dependent on the outcome. If the result of hitting a talmid, even with justifiable excuse, will result in continued disobedience, including going OTD, then using that method is not chinuch, and is pure unadulterated assault. Shulchan Aruch discusses the sugya of חובל בחבירו. Check that one out.
The rebbes in my yeshiva ketanah regularly punched and kicked us. It did inspire fear, but not kavod haTorah.
Joseph- apparently you were hit on the head a bit too hard as a kid. Or just a sadist . I was a 3rd grader whispering and I got beat to a pulp. You think that’s normal? I made it clear that the only reason I turned out sane was the affection shown by my high school and bais medresh rabbaim.
There is a big difference between discipline and what Dafbiyun describes here, which is pure physical abuse.
“Tanach states and Shulchan Aruch paskens that corporal discipline must be used on children.”
I think that the Gedolim today say differently.
Son, all I said was that anyone who claims parents or rebbeim should *never* hit a child, are dead wrong. Not because I said so but because Dovid HaMelech said so and the Mechaber paskened so.
I did not quantify it or say how often it must be done.
“Apparently the corporal discipline worked on all of you. Tanach states and Shulchan Aruch paskens that corporal discipline must be used on children.”
Mods: Even if he’s joking, the cruelty demonstrated by Joseph’s comment, especially on this particularly sensitive thread, mandates that he be permanently banned from this site. In addition, please forward his contact information to a responsible party so they can investigate whether this unhinged individual presents a danger to family members and others.
I agree that that post was inappropriate, especially for this thread -29
“we had a old European reebbe who walked around with a wood hanger and used it on anyone…. Verbal abuse was a daily occurrence with many of the rebbaim .”
Now I understand why most Jews in Europe 100 years ago were OTD. From an early age, being frum had no joy, just pain and suffering. It seems that punishment was very cruel, and it at the will of a capricious bad hearted person. And that was from someone supposedly on your side.
MDG, in that time all teachers used corporal punishment. MY father z”l told me that when he was in public school his teacher would hit students on the hands with a ruler. There was even a ditty, which was still around in my time, that started “Glory, glory hallalu-h. The teacher hit me with a ruler”. However, in those times it was accepted. Today poskim agree that a child should not be hit unless he is endangering himself or someone else.
Corporal Punishment is still used in many yeshivas even thought its illegal in New York State
(It might be legal in other states)
Corporal punishment is *not* illegal for private school teachers to use in NYS.
If you hit a child the and they hit back please don’t hit them again for chutzpah, if a child is shown respect they will be respectful. Unfortunately today bullying starts at home from parents and the outlet is at school to other children. Look at children that bully it’s usually the case or they aren’t complimented enough at home and have a self respect issue and the only way to get nebach the negative attention is by bullying. When you come home from work, killer or what ever you do try it go compliment your child for something that’s no even a major think and enjoy the beautiful smile on the child’s face. Please report back the joy that the child and you will have. Priceless!!!
Joseph- I’d add ” pathological liar” to your resume. Anyone who reads your initial post can see that you were saying that the brutal beatings I suffered were sanctioned … not that an occasional potch might be allowed..
Let me share something else with you: I can distinctly recall ( with great shame) that as a 9 year old after days and weeks of physical and mental abuse ,davening that my rebbe die.
The Stiepler lists the exceptionally rare occasions when any child may be hit.( If he hits others or puts himself in danger). By rejecting our gedolim’s edicts and substituting your own understanding of “t’nach and the M’chaber” as the halacha as it applies today you step dangerously close to branding yourself as a kofer as well.I have noted this before, and another repetition of this is warranted. There are now many seforim on the subject of chinuch, and the mechabrim are noted in having been or still being recognized as gedolei Yisroel, and others are likutim from well recognized talmidei chachomim. To cite Tanach or Shulchan Aruch without including the manner in which today’s Gedolim explain the relevance to today is dishonest, both intellectually and spiritually.
There is considerable discussion about use of any form of negative physical force. No one says it is never permitted, but it is fairly clear that there are many, many limitations on how, when, and under what circumstances it can be used. A rebbi who delivers a smack out of anger is clearly in violation. Whether a talmid deserved it is not relevant. I interacted once with a menahel whose staff member smacked a talmid multiple times in a manner that was as much a physical assault as it was shaming. The menahel was busy defending this rebbi, until I read verbatim a direct quote from the Brisker Rov ZT”L, wherein he stated that the first potch can sometimes, and under specific conditions be permitted. Anything more than that was an absolute issur “min haTorah”. Needless to say, that menahel claimed to have more knowledge in chinuch than the Brisker Rov. Our call ended there.
DB: To claim there is consensus among today’s Gedolim regarding chinuch habnim is absolutely false. To claim there is consensus among today’s Gedolim to ignore the Shulchan Aruch regarding hitting children is absolutely false. To claim there aren’t Gedolim today who fully observe and pasken in accordance with Tanach and the Mechaber in Shulchan Aruch for parents and rebbeim to use corporal discipline with children is not only false but even against what most Gedolim today pasken as.
And to take Gedolim out of context and put words into their mouths that they never said or wrote in order to fits one’s agenda and societal preferences is worse that a falsehood.
As much as it’s hard to admit, most people today are not on the level to “potch” anyone properly according to Halacha – regardless what the Mechaber says and what has been done in the past.
Would I be misquoting R’ Moshe if I said that he held that a rebbe may not even use a stick to threaten a child- much less use it? The Stipler’s psak is well known and accurate.. I never said that all poskim agree it is never permitted to hit a child under any circumstances.( I recall giving my own children a light potch on very few and a occasions.
however in my first statement cited two examples of a rebbe beating up a little child with a cane and a wood hanger for minor infractions and you cheered them on. I care nothing for societal preferences. Please enlighten us as to the extent of the shittos of those you claim ” fully observe” the mitzvah of hitting children. Show me one Pose kthat would permit the brutality I described in my first post. Are lead pipes ok? How’s about knives?
With each post you embarrass yourself further. Your desire to appear as a great kanoi only reveals your sinas yisroalJoseph:
You wrote: “To claim there is consensus among today’s Gedolim to ignore the Shulchan Aruch regarding hitting children is absolutely false. To claim there aren’t Gedolim today who fully observe and pasken in accordance with Tanach and the Mechaber in Shulchan Aruch for parents and rebbeim to use corporal discipline with children is not only false but even against what most Gedolim today pasken as.”
This comment of yours is hideous and completely disgraceful. There is no halacha that one must hit a child. Period. That is not chinuch, and has never been chinuch. To cite these blasphemous words in the name of Tanach, Shulchan Aruch, or Poskim is a horrible crime. These are the words of שונאי ישראל who engage in the practice of עושה מעשה זמרי ומבקש שכר בפינחס.
There is a last resort that is awarded to mechanchim, both parents and those in school, to use a שבט to modify behavior. But controlling behavior is not chinuch, and has no role in education. As one commenter here noted, it created fear, but not a drop of Ahavas Hatorah. That is NOT consistent with Tanach, Shulchan Aruch, or any Poskim. Again, stop manipulating these sources of Torah to further your agenda that justifies and glorifies brutality and abuse.
The only place in chinuch for discipline is its use to teach, not to control. Thankfully, the readers of this thread are onto you, and fully aware that Torah never, ever sanctions the blubber you spew. We are also aware of the many reputable sources of guidance from those who know, NONE of whom espouse the strong arm tactics you claim are holy. Shame on you. Go troll somewhere else, and spit your words of blasphemy where Yidden will not be exposed to them.
Absent a retraction and apology I second the vote that Joseph be banned from this site for continuing to espouse views which are outside the parameters of any frum ideology as well as hateful and hurtful. Mods-Joseph’s first post was “inappropriate”, to say the least , but his follow up remarks mocking all those who point out how horrible his remarks were , deserves nothing less than cherem ( at least from this site).
Effective trolling, Joseph, but there is no sport or art in this.
I know that CR threads typically go off-topic, but I really hate seeing this one get hijacked.
No matter how you feel about rebbes hitting students or parents hitting offspring, everybody here ought to agree that STUDENTS ARE NOT ALLOWED TO HIT EACH OTHER. And a group of students is not allowed to gang up and hit one classmate. And it is the responsibility of the adults to enforce that. And if adults allow students to engage in bullying behavior, then the adults are at fault and can/should be held responsible.
I am ignoring Joseph. You should, too.
Dafbiyun, Joseph has been here pretty much since the beginning and has always been controversial*. We tolerate him because it’s easier this way.
(*yes it’s a euphemism)
Mrs. Plony -“No matter how you feel about rebbes hitting students or parents hitting offspring, everybody here ought to agree that STUDENTS ARE NOT ALLOWED TO HIT EACH OTHER”
Abolutely wrong!
If you think it’s Ok for Rebbes to hit – who do you think the kids learn from?!?If the Rebbe is allowed to hit the students, then at most the students are allowed to hit the Rebbe, not the other students!
The issue of not hitting children today is not just because the parent/Rebbe is not on the level to fulfill the criteria of when it might be appropriate as a chincuh tool. It also has to do with the level of the child being hit. Rav Shlomo Wolbe says it is assur to hit a child today because today, a child’s automatic response may be to hit back, and therefore by hitting the child, the parent is encouraging the child to hit and be oiver on kibbud av v’em.
Behavior is learned. If a role model hits when angry or otherwise upset at a child’s behaviors, today’s child will not have the maturity to think “it is ok for him to hit me because it is for chincuh purposes”, but rather he will learn that hitting is ok when one is angry or upset. And then he will hit when he is angry or upset, specifically someone who is weaker than him. Bullies do not emerge from a vacuum.
Yes, you are being mechanech your child when you hit him: You are teaching the child to use aggression and violence to solve his problems.To clarify: I also don’t want rebbes to hit kids. But even if there are people who don’t object to it, they DO (or at least SHOULD) object to KIDS hitting other kids, and that’s how this thread starts.
Now, is there anything we can do for Mama1 and her son?
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