Another Kiruv Question

i see no reason why the chiyuv to be mekarev isn’t a kal v’chomer of Lo Saamod Al Dam Reecha. we see countless times how the neshama is more important than the guf in this regard. the most prominent example would me dying al kiddush hashem. depending on the circumstance on may even be obligated to die for something that isnt yeharag v’al ya’avor. we take this stuff seriously because the neshama is of paramount importance.

therefore…it follows…that if you would not stand idly by and watch someone get run over by a car if you could have done something…then surely you should be mekarev a yid who is slipping or has slipped or has never known better or whatever the situation is.

that being said one is under no obligation to kill themselves or risk their life to save another. so if one feels that one isnt up to kiruv becuase it may damage their neshama in some way then by all means dont. but if you dont because you cant be bothered…then i see no reason why Lo Saamod Al Dam Reecha doesnt apply.

soliek -“i see no reason why the chiyuv to be mekarev isn’t a kal v’chomer of Lo Saamod Al Dam Reecha.”

I’ll repeat it again – There is No Chiyuv to Mekarev anyone. The Posuk you just quoted says “Reyecha” – A Frei person isn’t in this category. Doesn’t mean you shouldn’t, just that you aren’t Mechuyav to. Unless they are doing the Aveiros L’hachas, which in this case you have to let them rot, but this is very rare nowadays.

“then i see no reason why Lo Saamod Al Dam Reecha doesnt apply.”

True, if you see a Frum person starting to go OTD -you can’t stand idly by – because of Lo Saamod!

To BTguy also -If you look in the Chofetz Chaim and the Rambam -you’ll see why I’m saying all that I did.

Kol Tuv.

mdd – I could agree with your statement, if you come up with another reason why there is no Chiyuv to Mekarev Frei Yidden.

I don’t have another reason why there is no Chiyuv, just that they aren’t Amecha/Achecha. If you tell me another reason, why there is no Chiyuv, I could accept your statement.

Sam2, that was what I was feeling and you said it well. I am not saying Health is wrong. I just thought the argument to get to the conclusion was somehow loosely wired. I am still curious for a definitive answer in this case on if chiyuv means an obligation, and where that obligation is rooted, or if chiyuv is being used to say one strongly likes the idea and is supportive of it.

Cinderella, I would like to say that from personal experience, what has worked have been people who clicked with me personally, who just gave me the information straight, without judging me or checking on how much I was absorbing. Also, they modeled the behavior and attitudes they wanted me to have. They may or may not have been aware of how much any of them influenced me. I will tell you that while every Rabbi I had the privilege of learning from taught me and modeled many things for me, not everything sunk in, but many things did, and I am eternally grateful.

To me, it is like a giant jigsaw puzzle, and you have a chance to give someone pieces to that puzzle. I would say just say to be extra careful not to expect rapid change or even change you are aware of, and to give over the information as it is, and be friendly, welcoming, and there for them, even if they seem difficult. Let them be them, but give them the proper Jewish perspective on any and all topics without making them feel what they are doing now is wrong. They want to please and do the right thing.

Its almost like putting a variety of foods on the table and they will pick and take what they want. It is a lot of work to do that, but you are aiding in building a neshama. And, yes, there will be backsliding and times they seem to be going backwards.

Also, dont get overwhelmed. There is too much for you to teach. A great man who I learned with (he was over 90 years old) saw I was getting overwhelmed since learning one thing led to another and on and on, and it was difficult for me to apply things even though I bought into them in concept/hashkafah.

To help me with that he said to me the following: “You are walking down a road and you come across the biggest treasure chest you have ever seen. It is loaded with diamonds, gold, rubies, emeralds… That is what Judaims is. And it is all for you. And while you cannot take all the contents with you, you should know it is always there for you to go to and take something with you, as much as you like, and as often as you like.” That is the metaphor he gave me about coming close to Torah Judaism. And I still consider myself growing; sometimes faster than at other times.

In short, as long as you are a vehicle for teaching over the information, no matter who the person is, know something will stick, and it is in your merit.

Hatzlacha

Health: A mefurash Diyuk from what? Rabbi Tatz? Rabbi Tatz is amazing but is far from a Halachic source. You have brought no proofs here. I just read through every post of yours on this thread. Your one proof, that Arvus doesn’t apply to someone who’s not Frum (which you didn’t bring a proof for either, by the way) has already been disproven when regarding someone who grew up not frum. And I apologize if I offended you. I don’t think I’m being Chutzpa’dik in pointing out that, in this thread at least, you appear to be superimposing your own expectations of what Halacha should be over the actual Halacha. Doing so is a serious problem in Yiddishkeit at the moment (on both ends of the “political” spectrum) and should never be done.

STOP. Cool it.

I just would like to remind the olam here why Health is so adamant that is only(sic!) a Mitsva (in his opinion) to mekarev frei Yidden and not a Chiyuv. It is because he thinks that much less Kiruv should be done. Those few that are being brought closer should undergo special screening. Afterwards, they are going to be told who be allowed(sic!) to be frum and who should stay frei!!!! Just how preposterous, outrageous, anti-Torah his suggestion is!!

health: you do realize that by not sharing your sources you reveal one of two things. wither that you have no source in which case sam is right…and stop being a pain about it…or that your torah is for your own personal aggrandizement and in no way lshem shamayim.

either way youre wrong so please…just move on.

Sam2 -“What right do you have to insult my parents? I don’t think defending the chain of Halacha and our Mesorah counts as being Chutzpa’dik or brought up incorrectly. And I have never claimed here to have learned in YU. But it’s nice of you to slander an institution as teaching their Bochurim improper middos just because you want to.”

I thought you learnt in YU, but s/o is responsible for not bringing you up properly, either your Yeshiva where you Did learn or your parents!

I will remind you of what you posted that reeks from Chutzpa, in case you think -“I didn’t write anything improper”!

1. “Ain Zu Darka Shel Torah.”

2. “you appear to be superimposing your own expectations of what Halacha should be over the actual Halacha. Doing so is a serious problem in Yiddishkeit at the moment (on both ends of the “political” spectrum) and should never be done.”

soliek -“health: you do realize that by not sharing your sources you reveal one of two things. wither that you have no source in which case sam is right…”

First of all, your spelling is so poor that I have a hard time deciphering it.

Secondly, I actually did share – I said I heard it from a Shiur and I also said it is a Rambam. I was going to tell where this Rambam is, but not one person asked like a Mentch!

Why don’t you ask mdd where it is? Because he posted – “And I certainly did learn the sugya”!

health…you are being a baby. dismiss my point all you like based on incorrect spelling, but regardless, it still stands. if you learn lshem shamayim and the reason you are arguing with sam is lhagdil torah ulhaadira then post your source. if you have no source then please be quiet. either way your current behaviour just makes you seem like a petulant soreloser whether or not you actually are.

if you are right, i am sure sam will concede. if you are wrong then i hope you will. regardless, this straw man argument based on a source you may or may not have is an exercise in futility. if you have a source, produce it. unless being petulant is your favourite pastime in which case…i truly pity you. you gain nothing by carrying on as you currently are.

Health, I do not , chas ve’sholom, hate the FFBs. I do ,however, have ta’anos on those FFBs, who for no valid reason dislike or do not treat the BTs well. That’s what the consequences of an aviera are, in addition to the aviera itself — they have people upset at them.

soliek -“health…you are being a baby. …unless being petulant is your favourite pastime in which case…i truly pity you. you gain nothing by carrying on as you currently are.”

You don’t seem to have read my post to you in its entirety.

I’m not acting immature -I’m standing on principle. Did you ever hear of Derech Eretz Kodma L’torah? I said I would gladly post where this Rambam is but no one asked like a Mentch. And at this point, not only would e/o have to ask like Mentchin, but they would have to apologize for all their obnoxious posts!

Interesting point health. I always assume that (even though it’s always best to be nice) things like embarrassing someone wouldn’t apply in an anonymous internet forum. Maybe if people know who you are it would. I have to think about that.

That aside, I never once intended or wanted to embarrass you. I wanted to make my point. I apologize if you read something in an offensive manner. I was just trying to impress the way Halacha works and then defended myself when you made things personal. I am just pointing out that you are continuously making judgment calls here for other people. You might think that it wasn’t worth it for someone to become frum if they will have trouble with parts of Bein Adam Lechaveiro. So I ask, in all seriousness, if you honestly believe that they (and therefore K’lal Yisrael and therefore the world) are better off with these people not doing any Mitzvos than with them doing the ones they are?

Health, you started it by spewing the preposterous slander against the BT and making monstrous, diabolic suggestions that we should not mekarev people.

Health, if they are tinokos she’nishbu, they are “Achicha” and “Reyacha”. If they are not , what’s with ” the exuse of being tinokos she’nishbu” that you mentioned?

Health, and creating ill-will, that you and the like-minded individuals create by their statements against BTs, is also nothing?

I am sorry that you got offended. I did not say anything to you that I would not have said to someone I was learning with in person. I apologize if that somehow came across the internet as if I was belittling you or insulting you.

Health: It is fair to compare reform and conservatives to the karaites that the Rambam had. This requires a bit further looking into. What does the Rambam do with Kol Yisrael Areivim and Lo sa’amod Al Dam Re’acha here? This is an interesting thing to look into.

On a side note, even if there is no Chiyuv to be Mekarev that doesn’t mean that anyone, ever, has a right to push away someone who wants to come closer to Yiddishkeit.

Frei Yidden are not Goyim. By Goyim, we do not try to influence them to become Geirim. By frei Yidden, who are mechuyav in all mitsvos, it is different.

Sam2 -“Health: It is fair to compare reform and conservatives to the karaites that the Rambam had. This requires a bit further looking into.”

No one compared anyone to anyone, but the Rambam says there is No chiyuv to Mekarev Frei Yidden, even if they are Tinok Sneshbehs.

“What does the Rambam do with Kol Yisrael Areivim and Lo sa’amod Al Dam Re’acha here? This is an interesting thing to look into.”

That’s why I said he must not hold they are Bechlal Arvous, unless s/o comes up with another reason why there is No Chiyuv to be Mekarev.

“On a side note, even if there is no Chiyuv to be Mekarev that doesn’t mean that anyone, ever, has a right to push away someone who wants to come closer to Yiddishkeit.”

And how many times does a Frei Yid come knocking on anyone’s door asking them to be Mekarev him? If it ever happenned -it is a rare occurance!

Health: I think that everyone who comes to NCSY or another one of these programs is knocking at the door and asking someone to be Mekarev them. You would rather get rid of those programs, if I understand correctly.

Are you sure that the Rambam hold of Arvus the same way that we normally assume it? If the Rambam has a different definition of Arvus then would you agree that we might not hold like this Rambam that you quoted?

I have no dog in this fight so let me offer a couple of comments.

1. Health never claimed that kiruv isn’t a mitzvah, just that there is no chiyuv to do so in the cases mentioned. Nowhere does he state or imply that kiruv organizations or programs should be disbanded or discontinued.

2. Health has taken offense when clearly none was offered. I don’t know who or what he thinks he is, but here in the semi anonymous world of an internet forum he’s just another voice like everyone else and certainly not entitled to any special deference.

3. Mod, this subject has been beaten to death. Let’s close this thread.

No need to close the thread. The argument is over. Health will no longer be responding. If the subject has been “beaten to death” then no one will post further. If someone wishes to make a point they may.