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Are they a problem?
My pricipal just made a rule against wearing them to shcool and i can’t understand why!
Is it a tznius issue? Are they especially attracting?
I never thought they would be a problem!
Thanx!
Why do you want to wear them so badly that you care if they aren’t allowed? Are there not enough other choices in footwear?
It probably has to do with what they feel it represents. They don’t feel it’s an appropriate style for a princess (aka bas yisrael). The way a person dresses affects how they think about themselves, and they want you to feel like the princess that you are.
Maybe because it’s a nonJewish/secular style, fashion trend?
What is the rule? Is it that shoes have to be higher to protect you from snakebite? Or that they have to be lower, leaving you vulnerable to snakes?
Joseph – because she’s a teenage girl.
The worst part is that it appears that the decision was arbitrary as no explanation was provided. It gives the appearance that the principal was being arbitrary and a control freak.
Joseph, I would ask why was it necessary to add yet another item to the banned list
People all the time rebuke those who go to far with Kulos, but rarely if ever do they rebuke those who make too many chumras. The damage can be equal.. There is a slippery slope when you permit things that should be prohibitted as people might go down that road
However the same applies in the opposite way. If you prohibit the permitted people will find out it was just some chumra and that you lied and begin to question other things you have said, Maybe they were “Chumras” too
It seems reasonable for a school to have a dress code. Perhaps this is a newish item (I don’t know, my daughters only wore after an injury) so the dress code was updated.
There is no reason to get carried away and say these are unreasonable Chumros.
Just like professional offices have dress codes , a school can also and it is not just tznius matters.
“but rarely if ever do they rebuke those who make too many chumras.”
Actually, they do that all the time. Just look at the username of the poster before you.
“If you prohibit the permitted people will find out it was just some chumra and that you lied and begin to question other things you have said, Maybe they were “Chumras” too”
That is very true if you lie about the reason why you are forbidding something. For example, if you claimed that it was meforsha halacha in the Shulchan Aruch that you can’t wear these kinds of shoes.
That’s not what’s happening here. Schools are allowed to make dress codes. The school presumably has a uniform too even though there is nothing in the SA about it.
Presumably, the principal had a good reason for the rule and would be happy to explain if Johnny asks her. Maybe she even did explain and Johnny didn’t hear or understand the explanation.
In any case, we are not allowed to assume or to say that she had no reason for this rule.
JA: “Actually she did tell us that it’s not a problem of tznius but she just made the rule just BECAUSE.”
It had actually occurred to me after I wrote my last post that she might not have given a reason. Sometimes it’s not kidai for mechanchim to give reasons for these rules because the students will just argue with them. If you don’t give a reason, they are more likely to try to figure it out themselves or to realize that the school has a right to make a dresscode and they will understand better when they are older why schools do that.
nishtdayngesheft:”It seems reasonable for a school to have a dress code. Perhaps this is a newish item (I don’t know, my daughters only wore after an injury) so the dress code was updated.
There is no reason to get carried away and say these are unreasonable Chumros.
Just like professional offices have dress codes , a school can also and it is not just tznius matters.”
+1.
I do not know what kind of school this is, but imposing unilateral rules without any reason isnt really such a good idea.
If its a more charedi school, probably wont make a differnce as most will obey, but more modern ones the girls will want reasons for the rule.
You also dont want people obeying rules in front of the principal and then disobeying them behind their back. That does not create such a good atmosphere (I have seen this too many times)
“If its a more charedi school, probably wont make a differnce as most will obey”
I think she has said that she lives in Lakewood. A modern school wouldn’t make such a rule and it wouldn’t be appropriate.
“You also dont want people obeying rules in front of the principal and then disobeying them behind their back.”
The Principal specifically said that it’s a school rule and not about tznius so they don’t have to follow it when they are not in school.
That was actually very intelligent, imho, since it avoids the problem you mentioned.
And it also means that the girls don’t need to feel restricted. Of course, they will complain anyhow, but it’s really not a big deal, since they can change as soon as they get home, just like they can change out of their uniforms.
ZD,
Who said there is no reason? Who said the reason has to be explained to everyone (and it’s only an assumption that a reason wasn’t given). Parents should not give a reason for every rule they make for their children.
The principal did not say that the girl’s cannot wear high tops, she only said they can’t wear to school. (Read OP comment). So I am not sure what you mean about doing something different behind her back.
You differentiation between girls in charedi schools vs mo is inot factual in the least. One would wonder whether you have met girls who went to any schools.
Your comment is demeaning to girls in all schools.
You are breaking a school rule, not committing an Averiah if you wear the shoes
I knew a girl who had gone to high school in Lakewood. She told me that when she was in school, clunky shoes were in style, and the school had a rule against it.
So she davka wore clunky shoes to school (It sounds like she may have been a similar type to you, JA, :). She was waiting for her teacher to yell at her. Instead, the teacher said something like, “Chanie, those shoes are not matim for you.”
She thought that was very smart of the teacher. If the teacher had yelled at her, she would have been like, “ha, ha, got ya”. Since the teacher responded the way she did, it made her think about it, and think about whether or not the teacher was right that it’s not her type.
JA: so you purposely want to break the rules of the school? And you think your correct in doing that?
ZD; breaking the yeshivas rules may not be an aveirah but it sure is not a mitzvah either!
I have a close relative who goes to a very well known frum girls high school in Brooklyn.
They have a new rule that the Girls cannot get drivers licenses (This is not a chassidic school and there is no rule that women cannot drive) She Dafka got her drivers license and make sure not to drive anywhere near the school
I thought obeying mechanchim was a mitzvah, hence disobeying would be an aveira. (If nothing else, they are the parents’ shliach in chinuch. Does this not apply to girls?) Do you all believe it’s not a mitzvah to obey/aveira to disobey) teachers etc?
sometimes schools have rules but they don’t care if specific individuals break the rules as long as they do it quietly. This is because the rule can still have the effect they want it to have even if a few specific individuals break it quietly.
I don’t know if this is the case in your example, ZD, but I can see it possibly being so, at least to some extent.
Sometimes, just the fact that the students are forced to do so quietely gives the rule the intended effect.
For example, in my high school, we weren’t allowed to wear knee-his. Most girls did wear knee-his but made sure they sat tzniusly so no one would know.
One time the teacher went around asking everyone if they were wearing knee-his or stockings, and she kicked out everyone who was wearing knee-his. There were approximately 4 girls left in the room. That was the only time that anyone said anything and the teacher even explained afterwards that the only reason she said anything was because she saw a girl not sitting tzniusly.
My daughter went to a well-known Brooklyn high school. On the first day, one of the girls was sent home because her skirt was too long.
Mammele: “I thought obeying mechanchim was a mitzvah, hence disobeying would be an aveira. (If nothing else, they are the parents’ shliach in chinuch. Does this not apply to girls?) Do you all believe it’s not a mitzvah to obey/aveira to disobey) teachers etc?”
Mammele +1. That occurred to me as well.
If the principal made a rule, that there is no laughing in school because its not tzniut and a bunch of the girls were giggling over something, Does that mean they all did an averirah?
Just because a principal makes a unilateral rule and its broken , doesnt make it an averiah. it doesnt mean you should break the rule either. Only its not an averiah
LU as you showed , Teens will break some rules by trying to hide things and that is why I think the rule is wrong, By making a rule that many will break behind peoples back and unless the principal is foolish, she knows many are breaking it behind her back. You are not creating Bas Yisroels, but rather lawbreakers who will find other laws to break as well.
I mean really is there a differnce between a girl who will pull down her skirt when the principal walks by and pulls it up and she is gone and someone who secretly owns a smartphone without a filter when the school has a rule, No unfiltered smartphones
It’s about standards. We weren’t allowed them in high school, and now in sem we can wear them. But its more about showing off a look, and sending a message across. They want to send across a certain message while girls are in their uniform, and those shoes do not help send off that message.
Since when has our motto become “it’s ok to break the rules”? Are we not bothered by JA’s comment “Personally, i’m the type of kid who likes to break rules and i consider it my duty to do so and make sure that everyone knows it! “
Sorry, but IMHO, you need to change your priorities.
Years ago I wore a certain type of yarmulke. My parents were called by the principal and were told that the yeshiva had a rule on the types of yarmulkes the yeshiva allowed. So my parents went out and bought those type of yarmulkes.
What are ankle-high shoes? Are they too high or too low?
I still don’t understand what regular shoes are.
Ironically these are the same teachers who preach about how its about who you are internally not externally that are making these rules
“Just because a principal makes a unilateral rule and its broken , doesnt make it an averiah. it doesnt mean you should break the rule either. Only its not an averiah”
I’m not sure about that. I think it could fall under the category of “zilzul morim”. I wouldn’t ordinarily go over to a teenage girl and tell her that she is doing an aveirah when she breaks the school rule, but if she asks the question, I think it might be appropriate to tell her that she is.
Your giggling example is a bad example because it’s not deliberate. The issue in this case is that she wants to deliberate break the school rules in front of the principal in order to make a point to her. It seems to me that that could be considered “zilzul morim”. You have to respect your principal even if you don’t agree with her. I think that is really the bottom line here. Even if you don’t understand the rule, you still have to respect your principal and her right and duty to make rules as she sees fit.
Giggling and Laughing can be done deliberately. People can do silly things
And there is definatly more room to say that laughing in public is more untznit than angle boots
ZD: “Giggling and Laughing can be done deliberately. People can do silly things. And there is definitely more room to say that laughing in public is more untznit than ankle boots”
In that case, the same rule would apply. It certainly seems likely that deliberately laughing in front of your principal after she specifically made a rule against it could possibly constitute “zilzul morim”. I would think that a girl who did that should have it in mind when she says “al cheit…b’zilzul horim u’morim”.
Interesting maaseh that is connected to this topic:
When R’ Shniur Kotler zatzal came to the US, one of the first things he did was to find his former Melamed and to ask mechila for the fact that when he was five years old he misbehaved and taunted his Melamed by saying “my Totty is a bigger Talmid Chacham than you are.”
Of course the melamed had not been particularly offended by being told that R’ Aharon Kotler was a bigger Talmid Chacham than he was, but apparently, R’ Shneur felt it necessary to apologize. (heard from the Melamed’s daughter).
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