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@Joseph. So it’s a sign of respect at all times? So who is he respecting in the fruit store the cashier the stock boy?
Whoever it was who commented about western Europe and suits last I checked central and South America are not in western Europe.
I find it hard to swallow that logic.
Presumably the members of that kehila came from a kehila that did wear hats therefore bu not wearing hats they were going against halacha and being mevatel a minahg.
Sam, at best it’s non-halachic.
@apushatayid: He’s respecting himself and society.
DY: I could hear someone saying that hats are more a political than Halachic symbol nowadays and that wearing them risks of Gaavah. It might not be true, but I don’t think it’s inherently invalid.
sushi: Only if you assume there was an inherent Halachic reason for wearing a hat in the first place. If you assume (like Pashtus in the Mishnah Berurah) that the reason for a hat is because that was what was considered Mechubad at the time, it’s not considered being Mevatel a Minhag to acknowledge that it is no longer considered Mechubad.
The King’s representative always dresses as befits his station. Whether in the palace or in the market.
Even when among fools who scoff at The King.
Sam, it is inherently invalid, and unquestionably, if I ever saw a place with such a “minhag”, I would attribute it to politics and their own gaavah.
B”H I have never seen such a thing.
Gaavah and their embarrassment to dress differently from goyim.
Joseph: Before John Kennedy, it was common for goyim to wear hats. The Streimel was copied from Russian and Polish Nobleman. I wear a hat too, but it’s not such a simple issue that it’s a Jewish thing. It just became one over time.
It doesn’t make you more or less a Jew and the same goes for what type of Yalmukah you wear.
Barry: At no time was the way the common Jew dressed not different than the way the goy dressed.
With all the talk about how goyim dress/dressed, it should be pointed out that pashtus, there’s an inherent aspect of covering the head – modesty and subjugation to the King – which doesn’t change with the times. The changing styles indicate that society has regressed in these areas, but we shouldn’t.
So while one may argue that it’s no longer an absolute chiyuv to wear a hat to daven (which is harder to argue for a jacket), it’s pretty clearly at the very least a maalah.
See ‘?”? ?”? ?:
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14170&st=&pgnum=147
Barry: The streimel might have been inspired by the hats nobleman wore but wasn’t copied. Jews throughout the ages always dressed differently than the goyim, now their dressed was influenced by the societies in which they lived but it was always different.
Joseph: So you are saying that your Minhag to wear a hat and jacket to Daven came from the fact that 50 years ago your Rebbeim and parents and everyone were too Gaava’dik to not dress differently than Goyim and therefore we should dress the same way they do? That;s absurd.
DY: Sometimes, often, politics come from religion. I have seen communities like that. And it’s not politics. If I walked into some Shuls in Efrat or other DL wearing a hat, it would mean a lot more than just “I want to wear a hat for Davening”. Like it or not, in E”Y wearing a hat is very politicized, on both sides. And yes, I would think it incredibly rude to wear a hat into many Shuls in Yehudah V’Shomron, because they see it as saying, “I’m better than you”. A lot of DL vs Chareidi politics in E”Y aren’t pretty. And sometimes we have to acknowledge that.
What are you ????? ?? ???????, Sam. The Jews dressed differently than the goyim 50 years ago, 25 years ago, 100 years ago and 250 and longer years ago. Me, my parents, grandparents, rebbeim and rebbeim’s rebbeim.
Sam: If some people in Efrat have an inferiority complex when they see a Jew dressed like a Jew, because they feel he’s better than them, that is absolutely no reason whatsoever for the Jew to dress less Jewish.
Au contraire.
If you walk into a Reform gathering they’d feel the same way seeing someone wearing a yarmulka.
That’s not halachic. It’s perhaps pseudo-halachic or even anti-halachic, but definitely not halachic.
i know s/o, a chazzan, who would daven very loudly to be able to hear himself over the talkers. one talker actually shushed him.
i think ur shul needs the “do not talk in shul” flyers.
Joseph: Really? What was different about Jewish and non-Jewish dress in America 75 years ago? Please, tell me.
And you have to realize what things are like in E”Y. There are many, many places where someone walking into a Chareidi Shul without a hat will not be counted for a Minyan or will be forced to Daven in the women’s section. The hat and jacket define everything. It’s not an inferiority complex about one’s Judaism to resent those who wear hats and jackets when the hat and jacket are exactly what people use to determine your level of being Jewish. It’s not fun, it’s not happy, and it’s awful on both sides. I wish it would stop. But it doesn’t. So acknowledging that reality, I realize that it is disgustingly Chutzpah-dik to wear a hat into some DL shuls. They don’t feel he’s better than them. They feel that he holds himself as better than them because he wears a hat.
America, Sam? America, 75 years ago, was a spiritual wasteland. It was just then that the beginnings of a Torah world was being built in America. Prior to that time it was difficult to simply be a Shomer Shabbos in America. Prewar America in no raya how Jews should behave.
If you want to look how Jews behaved 80 or 90 years ago, you need to look where Torah communities thrived. That would be prewar Europe.
Joseph: You miss the point. Mechubad dress in America 75 years ago was a hat and jacket. That’s what Jews wear now (and what many wore in Europe because that was respectable dress in Europe also).
Sam2,
So acknowledging that reality, I realize that it is disgustingly Chutzpah-dik to wear a hat into some DL shuls. They don’t feel he’s better than them. They feel that he holds himself as better than them because he wears a hat.
I do not have experience with these conflicts that you are describing, but your conclusion here does not make sense to me. If a person goes into a shul to daven, then it follows that he considers it advantageous to “package” his tefillos with those of the mispallelim there, and that they are kosher for a minyan. Therefore, it would seem to me to be the opposite of disrespect for a chareidi to take his hat and jacket into a DL shul to daven.
They feel that he holds himself as better than them because he wears a hat.
He isn’t? :p
In all seriousness, a baseball cap or Skullcap (or porkpie, or football helmet, etc.) should suffice for the Halachic aspect, even if you hold the Mishna Berurah means that a hat is actually required (which is not the pashut reading).
The King’s representative always dresses as befits his station. Whether in the palace or in the market.
Even when among fools who scoff at The King.
As Feivel correctly points out, nowadays, a Black Fedora and dark colored suit jacket (not a Blazer, which you never see in a yeshiva) are team identification. People want to show they are part of the “Yeshivish” team, so they wear the team colors.
Avram: That sounds logical. But emotions and insinuations rarely have logic. I chose Efrat as an example for a reason. There are places where it is much more volatile than others. And IY”H someday soon there will never be such fights again. But L’ma’aseh in many places in E”Y the hat is much more a political symbol than anything with any Halachic meaning.
So, the argument has changed, from disrespecting davening to this is how one acts all the time.
People want to show they are part of the Hashem’s team, so they wear the team colors.
FTFY.
Joseph: It’s so nice to know that none of the Tannaim and Amoraim were on Hashem’s team.
Sam, does a team’s uniform never change? Of course it changes with time. There’s nothing wrong, and everything natural, about a uniform changing with time.
But its still a uniform. And it is still unique for Hashem’s Army.
sam,
i wouldn’t be surprised if they wore a hat (not a fedora of course, but a turban)
Joseph: That doesn’t make any sense. If it’s what Hashem wants you to wear, why would it change? And if it changes, what allows it to change/determines the change?
What’s wrong with it changing over a period of decades or centuries, Sam, as long as it is still identifiable as a Jew with fellow contemporary Jews still wearing the similar dress code?
Prewar Europe certainly had many fine Jew’s. The majority though we’re not religious.
Joseph: Because then it’s subjective and meaningless. Maybe I’ll tell you it’s in the process of changing now again and so there is no reason to do it.
Whether that is true or not is irrelevant to the discussion. Hopefully you’re not dressing like the irreligious Jews of prewar Europe or of postwar America.
Some people think they are frum.
Some people dress like frum.
You will find the ones who are particular and strict are the least frum in the reckoning.
As the Chofetz Chaim says: the malachim judge you the way you judge others. If you are particular and hard with others, they will be the same to you. And since those sorts of frum people don’t seem to know that, more fool them.
Who knows whether Eliyahu Hanavi or Yaakov Aveinu is one of those hatless people in shule?
And yeah, I don’t wear a hat when praying. Who cares. What matters is speech and subduing anger – hat is a pale comparison. Ha.
Joseph and sushibagel: No one is disputing the fact that we always dressed differently than the goyim, but that wasn’t the point. Some of things that Jews insist on holding dear and look down on those who don’t conform, were really copied from Goyim. Making a slight change doesn’t negate that fact.
sushibagel: If you google pictures of Russian Noblemen and see their streimel like hats and then find pictures of streimels from the same era, you’ll find any difference, if there is one at all, to be negligible.
I thought it was very funny when I saw a Chassidish kids book that had a picture of Moshe Rabbeinu wearing a streimel. So much for being factual.
Excellence: Very true. It’s like that old (sad) joke of Moshiach going into a Chassidish Steibel wearing a fedora and was rejected because “how can Moshiach not be wearing a Streimel, then goes to a Yeshivish Shul wearing a Kippah Seruga and the same thing happens….all the way down the line until he gives up and leaves.
People judge too much on externals. B”H, it’s not always that way. Before making Aliyah, I Davened in a Chassidish Shteibel for a very long time. The Rov, ZT”L was a real Tzaddik, he was a Satmar Chosid, yet the Baal Koreh wore a Kippah Seruga and was a YU grad. It didn’t matter to him. He looked at everyone individually for who they were on the inside.
Joseph and sushibagel: No one is disputing the fact that we always dressed differently than the goyim
Sam seems to not accept this fact.
were really copied from Goyim. Making a slight change doesn’t negate that fact… If you google pictures of Russian Noblemen and see their streimel like hats and then find pictures of streimels from the same era, you’ll find any difference, if there is one at all, to be negligible.
Making a change isn’t slight and is notable. To take your example, the Russian noblemen’s headgear wasn’t closely similar to the common shtreimal and in pictures of the nobleman you will not find them wearing something on their head that could be mistaken for a shtreimel.
People want to show they are part of the Hashem’s team, so they wear the team colors.
FTFY.
Are the Chassidim and Yerushalmis not part of Hashem’s team?
“As the Chofetz Chaim says: the malachim judge you the way you judge others.”
I didn’t realize malachim judge people. Which message board did the chofetz chaim post that on?
“It’s like that old (sad) joke of Moshiach going into a Chassidish Steibel wearing a fedora and was rejected because “how can Moshiach not be wearing a Streimel, then goes to a Yeshivish Shul wearing a Kippah Seruga and the same thing happens…”
Well maybe he should have stopped changing his head covering before going in to each place. Then at least he’d have gotten one place right. Or if he needed to keep changing then he should have changed to the right style for each place. I wouldn’t accept a moshiach like the one in your story either.
squeak,
he’s told that “moshiach has to wear a….” so he does so, why would he go into another place doing the same thing as the previous place
stupidity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result
i wouldn’t want a moshiach that’s stupid, would you?
gaw: Hashem’s Army has many divisions, each with their own uniform.
gaw: Hashem’s Army has many divisions, each with their own uniform.
Good answer! So the fix should have been:
“People want to show they are part of the “Yeshivish” division, so they wear the division colors.”
Just like there are Chassidish, Yerushalmi, Dati Leumi, Moroccan, Syrian, Yekke, YU, and plain “Yeraim” divisions of Hashem’s team, as well as many others.
Personally, I may have described it as different teams in the same company/army, each with their own uniform. Some even need to be plainclothes, or may even wear someone else’s colors, but they still work for the same cause.
But it needs to be a uniform which is suitable laamod lifnei hamelech.
Joseph: Hashem’s Army has many divisions, each with their own uniform.
So what’s wrong with the division that doesn’t wear hats?
So tell me what is their uniform? (Not what it isn’t, i.e. no hats.)
So tell me what is their uniform? (Not what it isn’t, i.e. no hats.)
1: Who says there needs to be one?
2: Perhaps it is a knitted Kipa, sandals and a polo shirt (for some divisions/teams). For others, it may be a Beaver cap, black Kimono and white socks.
Because Jews always wore uniforms that very clearly identified him as a Jew and being different than gentiles. True, different communities of Jews sometimes had different uniforms. And they even changed over the centuries. But always did the Jew dress conspicuously Jewish that screamed out loud “I am a Jew”.
But always did the Jew dress conspicuously Jewish that screamed out loud “I am a Jew”.
Historical precedent is not a reason to continue, look at the Kollel movement :p
Besides, a knitted Kippa screams out loud “I am a Jew”. Do we agree that is sufficient?
P.S. If you are making a “Lo Shinu Es Malbusham” type argument, say so, and agree that it not not Davening, but even walking in the street.
Exactly! And until the Maskilim persuaded the government to forbid Jews from dressing differently most European Jews dressed like the chassidim dress today. The chassidim considered it to be an eis shmad making it yeharog vaal yavor and stuck to their traditions with mesiras nefesh.
The non chassidim did adopt the more modern dress.
When the goyim stopped wearing hats and jackets the yeshivish world kept the formal dress code thereby distinguishing themselves once again.
Joseph: Kippah and Tzitzis seem Jewish enough to me.
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