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I’m generally an easy-going person. It will often take quite a bit to get me riled up. But, like everyone else, I’m human and I have my “pet peeves.” For me, it’s talking during davening.
It was brought home to me again this morning. The Chazal had just finished the Kaddish after Uva L’Tziyon and had begun removing his tefillin for the Mussaf Amidah. Of course, everyone else in shul did the same… except one person.
This person was busy talking to his neighbor, less than ten feet from where I was standing. He was going on about something that happened to someone who took a huge loss on some business deal, was arrested and held for ten days without a hearing. And so on and so on. He continued long after everyone else had started daving the silent Amidah for Mussaf. Eventually (when I was about halfway through) he walked back to his seat to continue davening. Meanwhile, while he was talking, I could not concentrate on the Amidah that I was trying to recite.
Look, I’m not going to sit here and pretend that I’m a saint in this matter. I occassionally talk during davening too, but it’s kept to an absolute minimum. If my neighbor sits next to me and extends to me a “Good Shabbos,” I’ll give one in reply. If I bump into someone, I’ll say “I’m sorry” or “Excuse me.” If someone sneezes, I say “gezuntheit.” And I recognize that none of these are absolutely essential things that *must* be said, but I can say that I say them softly and quickly and then return to the davening. I don’t carry on conversations during davening. I certainly don’t disturb people from their davening with long conversations.
But what irks me even more about this is how very often I am the one who is veiwed as being disrespectful to the davening because I don’t routinely wear a hat and/or jacket to davening. It’s galling that people like me are not welcome in some places to daven, but people who talk through davening are accepted with open arms and a perfunctory shush. If you ask me (and yes, I realize that no one did), I rather everyone in shul be quiet, follow along with the chazzan during Chazaras HaShatz, etc. rather than be talkative, but wearing a hat and/or jacket.
I recognize that there is sometimes a need to talk, even during davening. There may be matters that *are* important or that are necessary for the functioning of the minyan. But this case was not one of them. That conversation could just as easily have happened after davening. And, again, I know that I’m not perfect in this — but I can say that I truly keep it to a minimum, as described above.
Yeah, I know… I shouldn’t let these things bother me. I should just pay attention to myself and perfect my own numerous shortcomings rather than paying any attention to the behavior of others. I guess I’m a bit petty when it comes to this. Another fault for me to work on.
The Wolf
Wolf, false dilemma. You can refrain from talking *and* wear a hat and jacket.
I don’t know where you daven, but where I daven (quite a yeshivishe place), the person sans hat and jacket is welcome (although IMO he’s wrong for not conforming to minhag hamakom), but the talker is made to feel quite unwelcome.
Not wearing a jacket when davening and talking during davening are both against Halacha. Talking is probably worse but one could argue that talking during davening is succumbing to temptation whilst not wearing a jacket is disrespecting it to begin with.
You’d feel quite welcome in our Shul.
While most wear a hat and jacket (some shtreimal on Shabbos), anyone, in any attire, is made to feel most welcome.
And there is absolutely NO TALKING, from beginning to end. Period. They take Davening there quite seriously (putting it mildly). Any shmoozer there is made to feel… quite out of place.
WolfishMusings,
I absolutely agree with everything you wrote regarding talking during davening. However, why make the juxtaposition with hats and jackets?
DaasYochid,
Would you say a man wearing a hat and jacket in a place where they don’t typically wear those items is wrong?
He is not conforming to minhag hamakon in such a case either.
goofus: In such a synagogue it isn’t the “minhag” to not wear a hat and jacket but rather it happens to be that the congregants chose not to wear it. Just as the fact that none of the congregants wore Reebok sneakers to their synagogue doesn’t mean it is their “minhag” not to wear Reebok.
Joseph,
Would it be considered the minhag hamakom if the men at a certain shul all wore hats and jackets? Or are they simply choosing to do so?
I don’t know where you daven, but where I daven (quite a yeshivishe place), the person sans hat and jacket is welcome (although IMO he’s wrong for not conforming to minhag hamakom),
Sometimes for Shabbos i visit relatives from such communities and I dont even own a hat. It is quite clear from my appearence that I am not one of them. Nobody has ever said a word to me about not wearing a hat (Only a shul near my house had such a rule ) and many times they come up and say hello.
WolfishMusings:
You are 100% justified to feel the way you do. People simply don’t know open Halacha in the Shulchan Aruch — especially not only when someone acts like an Am Ha’aretz but when it also disturbs someone else’s davening.
In addition, there is supposed to be NO HEFSEK between the Uva L’Tzion kaddish and the start of Mussaf. So this “neighbor” in shul is wrong on all counts.
Have a Good Chodesh.
Goofus, I don’t think a negative is a minhag (certainly not in this case).
ZD, firstly, the jacket is more important than the hat; secondly, I understand that some don’t own a hat, and I wouldn’t expect someone to buy a hat for an occasional visit (although I know someone who did). I’m talking about regulars who do own a hat (and I’m not talking about anyone in particular, just the idea). Even if someone was a regular or I knew that they had a hat but chose not to wear it, I wouldn’t say anything either, except hello.
goofus: It would be the minhag. (It may even be considered the halacha, as the shul rules in accordance with the MB.)
If someone wears a hat and jacket all the time, shopping, walking in street, visiting his grandmother who is in rehab, how does wearing hat and jacket show respect for davening.
I would suggest talking during davening is way worse than not weading hat and jacket since the mechaber uses unusually harsh language towards such people.
Speaking of disrespecting davening, I maintain those who learn during davening are doing the same.
If someone wears a hat and jacket all the time, shopping, walking in street, visiting his grandmother who is in rehab, how does wearing hat and jacket show respect for davening.
If someone wears a suit and tie all the time, shopping, walking in the street, visiting his grandmother who is in rehab, then does wearing a suit and tie show respect when visiting the President?
Wolf: you’re 100% correct. My other pet peeve is guys who bring very young kids to Shul who constantly make noise. In general, it’s a good thing to bring kids to Shul, but as long as they are disruptive, they should be left home.
????? – ???????? ???? ????? ??? ????? ???? ????? ???? ????? ????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????? ?? ??? ??? ????? ?? ???? ????? ?????? ??”? ???? ???. ??? ?????? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ??? ????? ??? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ???”? ???????? ???? ????? ?????. ?? ??? ????? ??? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ??????”? ???? ????? ????? ????? ??? ????? ?? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ????? ?? ?????? [?”?] ????”? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ?????? ?? ??? ??? ?”? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???????. ???”? ???? ??? ???? ????”? ??????? ?????? ?????? ??????? ??? ??? ???? ????? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ????
@joseph. No. You probably meant to ask, is he disrespecting him. The answer is also no.
Sushibagel. The mode of dress in Europe is not the same in south america or Australia. What is respectful in one place is silly in another. For example almost no-one wears a jacket and tie in central America it is too hot.
@apushatayid: The answer is Yes. Showing respect other times, even all other times, doesn’t detract from it being a sign of respect any time.
Talking during davening is very wrong as a matter of fact the shulchan aruch says ??????? ?? something something we don’t find anywhere else.
What I don’t get though, is why do we feel the need to always equate or lessen one wrongdoing when discussing another. For example; lashon hora always brings up a discussion about tznius?
The source I posted isn’t the only one btw there is another place in shulchan aruch that talks specifically about a beged elyon, I think it’s by birchos hamazon. Sam, Joseph can you help me out?
Apushatayid: wearing a hat/jacket is still considered and sign of respect even in western counties people wear jackets at a time like weddings,funerals etc.
wow wolf,
yyou didn’t tear him to shreds?
but seriously i don’t kknow this person, if he’s a habitual talker or not, however if he is i’m very impressed he kept shut during shachris hallel and krias hatorah and couldn’t hold himself back any longer!
also, you can’t fault people in how they were raised, some people were raised nott respecting other people
for example we were at a kiddush yesterday and one kid pushed my youngest son and didn’t even say sorry, later on by the same kiddush i saw a lady walk by and drop a tissue that she was holding on the floor (there was a garbage 20 feet away) parents didn’t teach the kids because they weren’t taught themselves that it was important (they were taught other things) so this person probably saw his father talking during shul and thought it’s ok
Nobody, outside of frum Jews who currently wear black hats, sears a formal hat anymore. It’s been out of fashion for 50 years. Whether you choose to wear one of not, it us not a sign if respect. If anything, when the National Anthem is played at events, people are asked to REMOVE their hats as a sign of respect.
LC: You’re mixing up how Jews dress respectfully and, l’havdil, how goyim dress as such. Two very different things.
Big deal. I know this dude who talks right through the whole krias hatorah. The entire time! He never shuts up except between aliyos–that’s right, he only shuts up between aliyos.
What a rasha he must be.
Thx
Somebody who talks during the chazarat haShatz, especially about secular matters, endangers the whole shul (Mishna Berura 124:27). If he disturbs otherpeople’s davening (and this goes for anything that is distracting, such as wild shuckling) is over on gezel tefilla. This is much worse than robbing someone of money as it is impossible to return the gezel.
Someone who does not wear a hat and jacket in a shul where EVERYONE does so is maybe (today people know that there are different modes of dress) acting improperly on his own private cheshbon (today many people do not wear hats or even jackets on weekdays, even in Chareidi communities – it usually depends on the type of work they do).
Joseph: You are wrong on several counts. First of all, there is a Chiyuv(ish) to add a Begged for Davening. If you always wear a hat and jacket, you need something else. Hikon Likras Elokecha Yisrael.
Second of all, where do you think that Jews got their mode of respectful dress from? I know that when I was in preschool I came home after drawing Moshe Rabbeinu coming down from Har Sinai in a hat and jacket, but you don’t actually believe that, do you?
pba
thanks for the laugh
Fine, Joseph, but remember that you can’t use the “even they find it so” argument because it won’t go both ways.
Sam: What do you think a gartel is for? Or have you forgotten.
And, yes, throughout history Jews have always dressed differently than the goyim.
No. I don’t rebuke anyone directly.
it was a play on words, being that you’re a wolf and wolves tear people to shreds
Not tame wolves tame wolves would rather just muse.
Joseph: Not everyone wears a Gartel. Plenty of hat-and-jacket wearing Yeshiva guys don’t.
How did Jews dress differently between 100 and 50 years ago? Or did we invent the hat and jacket to look different?
DY: Why should that be different than any other case of negative Minhag (e.g. women Schecting)? A shul where *no one* wears a hat probably chose that a lot more deliberately than women “chose” to stop Shechting.
?????? ?? ????? ??? ???? ??? ??”? ??? ????? ?? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ?? ???? ??? ????? ?? ???? ???? ?”? ?????. ????? ??? ?????? ?? ???”? [??”?]:
Okay
That’s enough.
I have to speak up.
Ca: don’t thank popa for the laugh.
That’s wolf’s joke.
Sam, really?
sushibgel: What’s the source for that and the context (is that a SH”A or M”B) and what’s your point?
Ca: don’t thank popa for the laugh.
That’s wolf’s joke.
feivel,
i’ll bite
how?
It’s MB
I wanted to point out that if the MB feels the need to day that bdieved you’re yoitzei without a gartel then there’s is no hetter do daven lchatchila without one but then I noticed the yesh omrim.
In previous posts Wolf describes himself as talking throughout the laining. Eventually someone will point out that wolf is a Baal Koreh. He’s done that at least twice that I can recall.
Twice? Closer to two dozen times over the past seven years. Though in fairness it’s been a long while since he kept repeating that joke (and then denying it’s a joke.)
oh lol,
haven’t sren that before
DY: Yes, really. If a Kehillah makes a Halachic/meta-Halachic decision to not wear hats to Daven, that presumably creates a meaningful Minhag.
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