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It says in lech lecha that Avrohom told Sorah that “now he knows that she is beautiful.” Rashi brings the midrash that becuz of the tznius between them he never even saw her until he accidently saw her reflection in the water. In all the years they were married, Avrohom never even saw Sorah. If he didnt see her then he certainly didnt stam shmooze with her or go out on “married dates” with her.
This is the ideal that the Torah wants. Avrohom and Sorah are the model for a yiddishe marrage. Just like Avrohom never looked at Sorah and certinly never socialized with her, so too we should strive to reach this goal with our own wifes. Halevai if any man could say that he didnt know his wife was pretty becuz he never looked at her.
There is another line of thought that says that until that point Avraham primarily saw only Sara’s INNER beauty, her middos tovos. It was when he was in the goyishe velt of great immorality, that he suddenly viewed her through the eyes of the goyim around him who were ONLY concerned with physicality and facial beauty. And that was when he recognized that she was exceedingly beautiful (in a problematic way that could lead to tzoros for them both).
Yasher Koach
Wow. Great advice. Never look at or talk to your wife, and all will be well with the Jewish nation. Maybe read some of the meforshim or just ask any Rav if that’s what we should aim for.
Mosherose, are you a gerrer chassid? What about all the gemoros which very mekel about looking at one’s wife? The point is that Avraham Avinu was on a very high level, and you can not learn from there a hanhoga for every regular Yid.
Perhaps we can’t achieve Avrohom Avinu’s madreiga… but we should strive to come as close as possible.
Perhaps we can’t achieve Avrohom Avinu’s madreiga… but we should strive to come as close as possible.
Yes, we should. But some things are only appropriate and only make sense once you are on the higher levels.
Mosherose
I don’t know where you picked up your Hashkafos but it is well known that the Gedolim of the previous generation looked at their wives and spoke to them on a daily basis. It is well known that Rav Shmuel Berenbaum ZTVKL used to talk to his Rebbetzin in his office. It was no “secret” there’s nothing wrong with talking to your wife. In fact you are probably Oiver many issurim by not talking enough to your wife. There’s a Mitzvah and Chiyuv to make your wife happy. If you don’t talk to your wife I guarantee you 10000000000% she’s not going to be happy and say good bye to your shalom bayis because she’s going to cause you all kinds of Tzaros. You really need to seek guidance, btw were you ever on a date? Did you ignore each other for 4 hours? How’d that work out for you?
Isn’t there a Halacha that a man has to see his wife before marrying her?
mosherose, do you HAVE a wife? Just asking… if you don’t, get back to us when you do.
So right, why did Chazal make a takona which made it easier for make-up and perfume merchants to sell to Bnos Yisroel? According to you, adaraba. The point is that the Avrohan Avinu’s madreiga in these things is for yehidey segula only.
If you don’t look at your wife and don’t talk to her than what is the point of marriage? How do you raise children without communicating? I thought a wife is meant to be an Eizer Knegdo but if he doesn’t talk or look her how can she be his his helpmate? Sorry I think you first have to treat your wife like a mentch and then you can worry about adding Chumrus to your relationship. Not talking or looking at your wife is demeaning and a lack of Kovod Habriahs.
I happy I’m not your wife 😉
Why be selective? Why choose only one thing for which to emulate Avrohom?
Near beginning of second chapter of Kidushin: It is prohibited for a man to marry a woman until he sees her, lest he find her unappealing and come to violate VeAhavta L’Raiecha Kamocha.
Look in the Maharsha (chidushai agados) in Baba Basra 15a dibur hamaschil Afra. This Maharsha is referenced by Reb Akiva Eiger in Gilyon Hashas on Kiddushin 41a. Eiy Shum!
Moshe rose, I hate to break it to you but it’s warped people like you who are causing problems in our society. Like oomis said, it doesn’t mean he didn’t know what she looked like. I means that when he saw her, he did not see solely her physical beauty. When he looked at her he saw her as the total inner person she was and thus assumed that her beauty emanated from within.
That explains why he only realized her physical beauty when he saw her reflection. A picture, or reflection will not radiate the same chein that is seen on a live face. Thus he understood that she was objectively beautiful.
And anyway, to get beyond the simplistic, widespread definition of tsnius, tsnius is the ability to push past external trappings and focus on the essentail core of something. According to this understanding, it is quite clear why tnius between avraham and sarah caused Avraham not to realize sarah’s physical beauty. He saw her as a whole person, inside and out. Her physical beauty, to him, was simply a reflection of her inner being.
I find it hard to believe that “al kein yaazov ish es aviv vies imo vedavak lishto…” means that one should have minimal contact with this wife. It smells very unjewish.
It’s beyond me why people are even answering this post…
Why is anyone even responding to this nonsense? Why turn this ridiculous post into a conversation?
This “lesson” is wrong. Even for Yichidei Segula, IMHO.
First, there is no mefareish that I know of who says anything like this.
Second, even if something along those lines were to some extent true for our holy Avos and Imahos, Avraham and Sarah lived in an entirely different generation and are in a completely different league than any of us today. So no direct comparison can be drawn in this regard.
Third, there is a pshat I saw (i don’t recall where) on “Afilu sicha kalah bein ish liIshto magidin lo…” that this means if one engages in this proper and holy conversation with one’s wife then even this “mundane” speech is brought as a CREDIT for him. Perhaps it is tzarich iyun, but that certainly seems that “married dates” and “stam shmoozing” are a (very) good thing, though within appropriate limits of course.
Third, reality dictates otherwise. There are numerous lessons throughout Bereishis and throughout the Torah of how much Hashem values shalom. Since living like normal human beings, but without violating any issurim nor even the spirit of any issurim, is marbeh shalom, then reality (and logic) dictate that this is the appropriate way to conduct one’s self, and not a way that reduces shalom even if it allegedly emulates the avos hakedoshim.
Having said that, there are limits and there are mussar concepts like prishus and others which may faintly hint at what the OP wrote. But this must be approached with extreme caution and with the guidance of a wise Rebbi or Rav, and not on one’s own due to a svara that if it was good for Avraham Avinu (assuming that was pshat) then it’s good for me. And one must be certain to not cause tzaar to one’s spouse, CH”V.
MosheRose,
Before quoting the sixteen million different sources in Chazal , Rishonim & Achronim that say that your haskafah is destructive ( as some have started to), I think the real question is if you are married? And if you’re not, as we suspect, perhaps you should lecture us afterward?
And perhaps it’s a good question to wonder why this obsesses you?
I hope everyone else realizes that %99.9 of marriages could use more closeness, not less, as per the Torah’s haskafah.
MosheRose,
Before quoting the sixteen million different sources in Chazal , Rishonim & Achronim that say that your haskafah is destructive ( as some have started to), I think the real question is if you are married? And if you’re not, as we suspect, perhaps you should lecture us afterward?
And perhaps it’s a good question to wonder why this obsesses you?
I hope everyone else realizes that %99.9 of marriages could use more closeness, not less, as per the Torah’s haskafah.
I think we should emaulate Avram and Sara 100%.
We should make sure to buy a minivan with the “wife option”, the one that contains a rear compartment to easily stow away ones wife to make sure she is inconspicuous to all, this is especially true for all border crossings.
Having said that, there are limits and there are mussar concepts like prishus and others which may faintly hint at what the OP wrote. But this must be approached with extreme caution and with the guidance of a wise Rebbi or Rav, and not on one’s own due to a svara that if it was good for Avraham Avinu (assuming that was pshat) then it’s good for me. And one must be certain to not cause tzaar to one’s spouse, CH”V.
I think HaKatan put it well, perhaps understanding the OP’s intent.
Moshe rose-
How do you explain the nashim tzidkaniyos in Mitzrayim who are credited with the geulah because they put on makeup to look pretty for their husbands?
What- don’t waste your time. Moshe’le chaps on to one source at a time, and says everything is for people “on their madrega, avadeh”. This is not going to get anywhere.
Mosherose, how can you even discuss being on Avrohom aveinu’s madreiga and be on the internet at the same time. I hate to break the news to you but you are one heck of a hypocrite!!! Stop with your holier than thou attitude. No you should not aspire to the madreiga of not talking to your wife or not noticing her beauty. You would be a true amha-aretz to do so. Your wife is your better half. That would be like ignoring half of yourself. Could you ignore your entire right side of your body? Could you only wash half of your body or clothe half of your body? Could you ignore half of it and not use it? Can you drive with only one hand, walk with only one foot?
Your wife completes you, guides you, nourishes you and makes you who you are today. Without her you are only half a person. So stop with this narishkeit already. If you don’t want to look at your wife or talk to her, go for counseling.
Forget about socializing with one’s wife (which to me seems to call for a “sic”): what’s the heter to hang here? You don’t have to name names but did you ask a shaila? What are the parameters you were given?
mosherose previously addressed his internet use, with his Rosh Yeshiva permitted it with filtering.
Just enjoy the entertainment MosheRose brings. He’s comic relief.
We should ask him to tape his dates (if he is dating) and see how that goes.
myfriend, sorry to tell you but i don’t buy it. No Rosh Yeshiva would allow any Talmid to use the internet with filtering for the purpose of blogs or chatting. The only way a Rosh would allow a talmid to use the internet with filtering is if it were necessary for parnasah or research for school. So before we bring heterim from Roshei Yeshivas lets be very careful what we imply and lets understand very, very well that Roshei Yeshivas have banned the internet. So if WE want to be on the madreigah of the avos or imahos, or aspire to be on the madreigos of Roshei Yeshivos or Kanaim then seriously WE HAVE TO STOP MEETING LIKE THIS!
I would imagine his parent’s will pick a spouse for him, as traditionalists do it.
webcam!
You all do realize he does it for reaction?
aries, try not to be so judgemental. There are reasons why a R”Y would give a heter, so lets not try to pretend we know of all of them. And certainly lets not discount ones words, when youu know little of him.
mosherose is obviously lacking in a clear Daas Torah and his knowledge of the ways of the Jewish People is clearly not fully developed.
nevertheless he is one in a million and when his character becomes polished, and with the right guidance (and a lot of it) i anticipate he may become a great Talmid Chochom and Tzaddik.
for he holds firmly to a crucial principle that almost everyone else has forgotten:
the Emes is the Emes, what feels right, what is accepted as a given by the entire nations, what appears to be obvious truths, are not Emes if they deviate from our Mesorah.
he needs to learn a little more clearly what our Mesorah is, but his tight grasp and unwillingness to let go of what he believes to be Torah is a beautiful and rare Middah.
Laughable.
Mosherose is obviously just trying to stir the pot… I cannot believe how many people took the time to answer him in such detail.
Please reexamine THIS POST
Quoted here:
mosherose
I went out on a date with a girl who insisted that I not look at her. It was the oddest thing. Apparently in her mind I was suppose to keep my head down the entire time. It was surreal.
From your telling of the story, it seems that you had a problem with being told not to look at your date (and she’s not even your wife!). You said, “It was the oddest thing”, and, “It was surreal” (not that surreal is the correct word to use).
Forgive me if I find your current position hypocritical.
SJS- is that as good as a video tape? It’s a first hand recount.
🙂
mosherose – “Just like Avrohom never looked at Sorah and certinly never socialized with her, so too we should strive to reach this goal with our own wifes.”
I guess Sorah became pregnant, exactly how?
MosheRose would be very welcome in the Ramat Bet Shemesh Bet community, where his wife can wear a burka. I can guarantee that EVERYONE will be looking at her (they are still somewhat unusual, and ironically, generate A LOT of stares)- but nobody will be able to see a thing past the layers of cloth, head to toe. If he’d like, I am sure she will be happy to wear it to bed as well.
So what IS the lesson from this maaisa of Avrohom not having looked at Sara?
I think mosherose just wants ATTENTION. Don’t bother arguing.
Helpful – there are many beautiful interpretations. Here’s from Rabbi Ciner:
Rashi explains that the simple understanding is that Avrohom, of course, was well aware of her beauty and had been for quite a long time. However, now that they were traveling to a place known for its adulterous ways (S’forno) where such beauty was not commonplace, Avrohom now needed to be concerned about that beauty and take steps to avert any harm that her beauty might cause.
The Gaon of Vilna writes that a very righteous person has what’s called ‘chut shel chessed’ {a ‘thread of charm’} surrounding them. The Talmud [Megillah 13A] teaches that Queen Esther actually had a greenish complexion. She did not have natural beauty, yet her righteousness gave off a beautiful glow.
The difference between a natural beauty and a ‘chut shel chessed’ can be discerned in a situation where that beauty will cause others to stumble. In such a situation, the natural beauty will remain, posing its dangers, while the ‘chut shel chessed’ will dissipate.
The Vilna Gaon explains that when Avrohom saw that Sarah’s beauty had remained, even as they were approaching the dangers of Mitzrayim, he now knew that (in addition to the beauty of her righteousness) she had natural beauty and he had better plan to stave off that danger.
Alternatively, Rashi offers a different explanation. He writes that the normal way of the world is that a person gets harried from the wearying effects of travel (ever try riding a camel for even five minutes?) and looks it. However, when Avrohom saw that Sarah’s beauty was unaffected by the rigors of travel, he now understood just how beautiful she was and he knew that they had to make some preventative plans before they reached Mitzrayim.
Although there are many different interpretations as to Avrohom’s awareness of Sarah’s natural beauty, his appreciation of Sarah’s innate beauty and qualities resounds throughout the story of their life together and her subsequent death.
So what IS the lesson from this maaisa of Avrohom not having looked at Sara?
I believe MR included that in the OP.
This is the ideal that the Torah wants. Avrohom and Sorah are the model for a yiddishe marrage. Just like Avrohom never looked at Sorah and certinly never socialized with her, so too we should strive to reach this goal with our own wifes. Halevai if any man could say that he didnt know his wife was pretty becuz he never looked at her.
The Wolf
So what IS the lesson from this maaisa of Avrohom not having looked at Sara?
Tznius.
Tznius.
Except that Tznius (in the respect that MR is indicating) doesn’t apply between a husband and a wife. I’m *allowed* to look at my wife. I’m *allowed* to know that she’s beautiful.
The Wolf
i have to admit i was literally laughing out loud reading through this…
my question is why did so many people take the bait and respond so passionately? Dont you see through it? That’s exactly what this was done for
Wolf: The underlying reason why Avrohom Avinu didn’t look at his wife, was for purposes of tznius.
I agree you should not look at or talk to your wife.
I certainly hope MosheRose is not his real name. Imagine getting a shidduch call about/for moshe rose- that would be too funny! Mothers, I guess there’s a new question to add to the list: will he look at my daughter and talk to her?
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