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There has been the “Black Hatters” thread, the “Colored Shirts”, the “Black kippa”,etc.. Some argued that you have to wear the frummer levush, while others brought proof, stories and parables of how you can wear the frum levush and do horrible aveiros, while those who wear the more modern levush are “also” great Talmidai Chachamim, etc,etc..
Now, there’s something that I’d like to clarify. What on earth does one have with the other? If you’d like to argue about colored shirts whether it’s ok to wear them, then do that. But who said you can’t be ehrlich if you wear a colored shirt? Was that the arguement about?? And who said that those who DON’T wear colored shirts are prone to doing immoral stuff?? Of course there are those who do that, but I highly doubt they’re doing it BECAUSE of their levush! So really, what’s the arguement about??
Beautifully put observanteen!
Can we turn this thread into the cheap shot thread?
So, who is gonna be the first? Bring it on!!
Observe – I think you missed the points people were trying to make. The color of ones shirt {white/colored} usually shows which backround you are from, THATS IT, nothing more then that, it doesn’t mak you more or less frum, it doesn’t make you good or bad… It just shows which crowed you come from. Now take it from there.
we are gonna get shut down for sure, just like the last thread on this topic. why does this subject bother the Mods?
Mods?
observanteen
I know a guy who wears a black hat and my husband saw him doing _______” or “my husband wears a colored shirt, and he’s a tzaddik! He’d never do stuff ploni does who wears a white shirt!”
observe – Yes it is all part of it. White shirts are crowd A, and this crowd you expect certain things from, and you also dont expect certain things. And the same goes with colored shirts, they are crowd B, and you expect different things then you would expect form the other crowd. Now if you saw someone with a white shirt doing such and such, it is something you didn’t expect from him… And the same goes vice versa.
When a white shirt/black hatter does wrong it’s like man bites dog. You didn’t expect it. When someone says I know a hatless kipa sruga colored shirtter who is a good person unlike a certain black hatter who does bad, the point is that you generally expect better from a black hatter. The bad apples sticks out.
Oy. Observanteen. As a participant in those discussions, I can clarify what my point was at least, and what I believed to be the topic at hand.
People asked “What does this X represent?”
Others and I responded that we disagreed with the premise of the whole question (and many of the comments that followed– one comes to mind where a girl called it chutzpa to come meet her father without a hat), which implies that one’s levush inherently means anything, or is a definitive legitimate way to draw conclusions about someone’s level of frumkeit.
By citing examples I guess posters hoped to establish their point that neither side is black and white, no pun intended. (well maybe a little bit)
one comes to mind where a girl called it chutzpa to come meet her father without a hat), which implies that one’s levush inherently means anything
Would it not have been chutzpa for one to come meet someone in his bathing suit? Or would that imply that levush inherently means something?
okay so HRH, the point of this forum is not to discuss that… that forum was closed; observanteen was just making an observation about the discussion.
But again, if you can’t see the difference between someone not wearing a blackhat and someone wearing a bathing suit, then we aren’t speaking the same language. Diginified levush is dignified levush, whether its black, white or blue.
observe – I thought you uderstood my previous post. Clothing represent which crowd you are from, and each crowd you expect so much from. Now I am not here to judge which crowds are better then others, its just the miyeyous that you dont expect from B as much as A. Now what I mean is YOU dont but Hashem does.
y.p: So the question is what is dignified levush. A legitimate argument can be made that being hatless isn’t dignified. Even if you disagree.
observe – Now is there anything wrong with your point? Do you think people are wrong for acting this way?
HRH
i guess we disagree on the definition of the word “legitimate”…
again, in any case it is not the topic of discussion of this thread
observe – Sorry, but I dont know what you mean.
observe, im not really sure what was going on in the other threads because i did not read them through thoroughly, but i can basically figure out what the discussion was. i think that there are several points here, and one of them is that the fact of the matter is, jews often (not always) find identity with each other in the form of classification. i know everyone is scared of being accused of “labeling” and yes, its an awful thing to put people into a box, but with all the sects in judaism, and the fine lines between many of them, its inevitable that there will be some sort of classifying. with that said, there are different uniforms that people identify with. you and i might know that these uniforms are not Tora m’sinai and have nothing to do with halacha, etc. obviously, someone who wears a white shirt vs. a guy who wears a blue shirt is not a better jew based on that alone. however, it is an identity thing–if a guy wheres a white shirt and black hat, knowing that in the yeshivish world this is what it is acceptable to be wearing (on a usual basis) then he is making a statement that he is part of the yeshivish world. if a guy claims to be in the yeshivish world, and davka wears a blue shirt, then he is making a statement, too. not that its bad!!! im just saying, he is choosing to make a statement. even if he has the best self confidence in the world, and he is a “yeshivish” person, just likes to wear blue shirts, to the world, he is making a statement.
all these nuances of how people choose to dress do not define their level of yiddishkeit, but they do classify people into groups based on the uniform they choose to wear. i think we can all agree that a chasid is stating that he is a chasid by wearing the traditional levush. while the yshivish levush is not quite as much a mesorah as the levush by chasidim, a certain levush has become acceptable by litvish/yeshivish, and wearing it states that one is affiliated with that group.
I think what O is trying to explain is: stick to the issue and don’t come with anecdotal evidence that has no shaychus to the disscussion. This is a given on any thread but somehow, when the discussion is about levush, people start arguing about OTHER THINGS those wearing the levush are doing. That was not the question! When we discuss shmiras halashon or health issues or whatever and a poster will state, “Well I know many people who are careful about lashon hara but do many other aveiros” or “I know someone with epilepsy who has a very healthy liver”, he’d be ignored, or laughed out of the CR. How is it different when the OP is trying to determine what a black hat stands for, or the difference between a woollen talis koton or a cotton one, or the permissibility of shaitels, and posters regale us with anecdotes of black hatters or chassidim who fail in COMPLETELY DIFFERENT aspects of yiddishkeit?
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