Am I Smart Enough for Law School?

playtime

If you arent stupid you are smart enough. Success is more dependent on dedication and determination than actual brain power. You also need to have a passion for the field you want to pursue be it Law, Medicine, or garbage collector.

popa_bar_abba

“Would you please do a few tricks for us:”

What is he, a pet poodle?!

What is he, a pet poodle?!

Good point. Please verify for us that you are not a pet poodle. I do not think pet poodles can go to law school.

Although, I think that sometimes seeing eye dogs can go to law school. So if you are a pet poodle, you may consider training as a seeing eye dog.

164

25k? Decent schools cost over 50k per year.

But I heard the top firms pay 160k per year plus bonus. And Washdell Litman pays even more than that.

And you haven’t even done any tricks for us yet. How are we supposed to know if you are smart enuf?

Me too. I’m so good at basketball I don’t even want to be in the NBA.

164 is just okay??

Sometimes I give silly advice, but I will give you good advice. Most people who score a 164 should not go to law school.

Pba – you realize that was more perpendicular than parallel, don’t you?

Of course. Parallel lines never meet. Perpendicular lines intersect. I want my points to intersect the discussion, not just to run along side it forever.

Really?

So what range is considered OK, and what range is good, and what range is very good?

It isn’t about good and bad; it is about accomplishing what your goals are. Presumably your goal is to get a job which will justify the amount of debt you are taking out, and will make you happy.

Law schools are having a crisis. Most students even from “good schools” are not getting legal jobs at all, or not getting the jobs they need to justify their decision to go to law school. You should read the blogs and forums related to law school, and you will see what is going on.

So yes, a 164 is a “good score” and will get you into a “good school”, but good schools are frequently not worth going to anymore.

Almost everyone who begins law school makes it through. Unlike other schools, in law school graduating is easy but it really matters how well you do.

I don’t think you are focusing on the correct problems here; I think you need to do a lot more research on law school before you consider it.

Ah, that helps a lot.

If you have a guaranteed job, you don’t need to worry about making decent grades. All you need to do is graduate, which is not difficult. This answer the workload problem also.

You also don’t need to go to a good school, so don’t need to care what you get on the LSAT.

Sounds like a good setup.

Second PBA- If you have a pretty much guaranteed job at the end of it, and someone is footing the tuition bill… what’s the question?

Sounds to me like you’re worried about doing well enough to not disappoint yourself/wife and your shver…

I guess you will only know if you try…

playtime -“Poppa, let me be clearer.

My Shver is a Lawyer. He is encouraging me to go to Law school: he will pay the tuition, and let me join his firm (very large and reputable firm). Hence, I don’t have the problems that many have.”

I’m not in the legal field, but I have friends who are. You don’t have the problems of those legal students and/or lawyers above. Ignore what they said. You have a job at the end, not like them.

You can get a degree from Rutgers with BTL and if you’re in NY some say Fordham.

“My question is,

How do I know I can handle the workload?

And how do I know I can make it through with decent grades?”

Your real question is can I be lazy and still make decent grades to pass like I’ve done in Yeshiva?

And the answer is No. You will actually have to buckle down and work. Knowing this – most Yeshiva guys do fine.

Also, it helps Yeshiva guys to take English courses beforehand either in a college or outside of one.

Based on your responses, I think you will be fine aiming for any of Cardozo, Brooklyn, St. Johns, Rutgers, and perhaps a few others. Won’t hurt to go to Fordham.

In which case, you are totally fine with a 160 or so.

When it comes to actually choosing schools, and weighing the school against its cost, then consult with FIL.

playtime -“Health- What type of English courses?”

Well if you live in Lakewood, go to OCC and take the pre-admission exams. If you place below then they put you in Pre -English, if Not you can start with Eng 101 (usually basic composition). Take at least Eng 1 & 2 (101 & 102). If you feel you need more there are more Eng. courses – higher levels you can take.

Based on my observations of you in this comment thread only, I would say don’t go to law school. Your analytical abilities and/or educational background seem to prevent you from figuring out the answer to your question, or what information others might need to answer your question. This sort of reasoning would be basic to doing well in the law school curriculum. I don’t mean to be harsh at all, I’m just trying to give you a realistic answer.

Moreover, the starting salary you mention doesn’t justify what law school will cost. Now, even if you’re not paying the tuition, and your Shver is offering to pay the tuition, it is still a lot of money that could be better spent elsewhere- perhaps investing in a business, or a property or some other professional training program. Also, in a firm of 10-20, it is possible that other lawyers might be resentful of your shver bringing in his son in law, especially if you just scrape by in law school. And finally, what if you don’t like working with your shver? Where will you be then?

I’m just trying to be constructive- there are lots of great professions out there. Right now, law is not one of them, even under the circumstances you describe.

1. You can always study for the LSAT, as anything.

2. You need a recognized undergraduate degree.

3. Certain skills (writing, general knowledge) need to be aquired before law school. If you aren’t good at learning stuff, don’t become a lawyer.

4. If you are good at gemara, you’ll probably be good at learning other systems of law. If you hate gemara, you’ll probably hate studying other systems of law. If your Rosh Yeshiva is begging you to join the most advanced shiur, and is offering you a job as a teacher – that a good sign you’ll make it in law school. If the Rosh Yeshiva is suggesting you need a real job, law may be a poor choice for you.

5. Are you sure you want to be a lawyer. If you think it is a “ticket” to riches you are mistaken. It requires a serious investment, with a very uncertain return. If the job appeals to you, go for it.

6. That you think to ask “Am I smart enough to go to law school” suggests you are seriously out of touch with reality. That should be corrected before looking for a job.

I’m not a psychologist. Just someone on the internet with an opinion, so take it as just that- one person’s opinion.

As for improving reading comprehension, again, I’m just one guy on the internet, but I think reading quality non-fiction might be helpful. Try reading articles in a magazine like the Economist, or the Wall Street Journal or the New York Times.*

*I am not making any comment on the spiritual or political implications of reading those publications, just expressing the view that they contain quality writing.

The LSAT is an intelligence test that can be beat. Meaning practice and learning a methodology to answering the various types of questions can vastly improve on one’s “natural” score.

Regarding yeshiva training and law school, I think both akuperma and PBA are right. Many of the skills needed in Gemara are not needed in law school. However the ability to read very carefully and be medayek is quite useful (even more so in the actual practice of law)as is the ability halt kup with a cheshbon and the ability to reason by analogy. Furthermore, one’s ability in discerning and explaining lomdus can go the extra mile in impressing a Professor on an exam.

But probably the most important thing you can do before goin to law school is take a writing class and typing class (or use books/programs and teach yourself). Most law school grades are based entirely on your exams in which you will be trying to tackle as many points as possible within a strict time restraints. The Professor needs to understand what you mean and understand it easily (they are grading lots of legnthy exams and are not going take the time to read what you wrote twice).

Akuperma, your gross generalizations about those who will succeed and fail are untrue.

The SAT focuses far more on external knowledge than the LSAT making it much easier to study for.

“Acquired skills” is a very broad term. Obviously, infants don’t have the skills to take these tests. Some infants, however, have a far greater innate capacity to learn and apply things than others. This allows them to “acquire” more skills, and do better on standardized tests, and particularly the LSAT.

True, studying the methods of solving games quickly (the most learnable part of the LSAT) may help you do somewhat better, but in my experience, the ability to excel is dictated far more by natural abilities than by learned methods.

I believe it is an intelligence test, and I didn’t fail.

Let me ask you this: do you believe that everyone is equally intelligent, or that intelligence doesn’t play a big role in a person’s test results?

I don’t believe the LSAT is learnable. Take a look at law school forums, where you have thousands of kids killing themselves to do 5 points better on the LSAT and get into better schools, and they cannot. There are people who are trying for years to improve their score, and paying thousands of dollars for courses and lessons.

Sure, some of them improve, and the vast majority eventually plateau and simply cannot get their score to move.

PBA,

Sure they plateau. But almost all improve substantially from their earliest practice tests until their actual tests. You can’t just take one practice test and judge yourself.

I also think that is especially true with a yeshiva guy whose reading comprehension might be weak from lack of practice. Reading comprehension can be improved a great deal just by reading a lot more and taking practice tests (even without a book teaching you methodology).

yytz,

There do seem to be a lot of people that do worse on the real test than their practice tests. I suspect that many of them are not taking their practice tests under the same conditions that you have in the real test.

Take your practice tests in one sitting with only the same breaks they have on the real deal. Also if you do poorly on the real test, take it again. Many law schools will evaluate you based only on your highest score.

My husband just finished his first year of law school at one of the top 14. We will be saddled with a lot of debt when he graduates, but on the other hand he will be well positioned to get a high paying job. Yes, the market for lawyers is becoming increasingly competitive, but from what I have seen so far, those who are passionate, charismatic, and bright can succeed (but with an important caveat: you can no longer afford to be picky about where you go).

Your situation, though, is different. You just need to do “decently well” in law school and you get a free degree and a guaranteed job? Sounds good, but make sure it’s something you really want first. If you’re just in it for the convenience, RUN AWAY NOW. Law school is hard work, but you CAN succeed if and only if you care enough. You should not make this kind of commitment based on money alone. If you don’t care about law, don’t do it.

If, however, you are passionate about law, you’ll be fine. Study hard for the LSATs. If you can get a 165, you’ll have your pick of schools. Even if not, you’ll find some law school to accept you. Once you get there, show up to every class barring a Yuntif conflict (unfortunately, “spring break” doesn’t always overlap with Pesach) or a serious emergency. If you miss class for any reason, you will fall behind. Do the assigned reading well in advance of class and volunteer to comment in class often. Don’t be afraid of giving the wrong answer.

You must realize that law school will take up a lot of your time and energy. If you are willing to commit to that, you will be fine. I assume when you say “decently well” that you mean at or just below the median. Please correct me if you mean something else.

Keep us posted on what you decide!