Science and Astronomy in the Torah

proud tatty: I am actually enjoying this thread very much. I find it very intresting. If you do not like it please stop reading it rather than requesting that it be closed. Thank you.

what a hypocrite. that’s not emes. i remember reading somewhere that shlomo hamelech knew the science behind all of these inventions. why didn’t he make a car and an airplane? no idea.

just as proof, leonardo da vinci had plans for many inventions. this is 500 years ago. he observed the science behind flying and even created a glider. what became of these inventions? for years, nothing. but within the last few years 2 bridges were built according to two of his models.(this is after becoming engineers – and he was never even educated in the area.) if a goy could do it without torah knowledge, why do you believe chazal can’t?

Because it is not for us to discern what G-d wants.

Us, Yes.

Chazal, NO!

Look at davening (you have already previously stated your passion for the words of prayer). Look at the repetition of the amida on Yom Kippor. Do we not mention in the section of the 10 harugei malchut that Rebbe Yishmael went to ask to see whether it was a divine decree or not?

Proud Tatty, Chazal are just as mechuyav in the mitzva of Lo Saamod as the rest of us. Pshat in the Harugei Malchus was whether they should daven to annul the decree.

Also, the gemara discusses medical cures of their times in many places, so the idea that they had no interest does not seem to be correct.

Furthermore, I believe the Vilna Gaon said that he did not study medicine, because then he would have been obligated to treat people all the time, and he wanted to learn instead. Reb Moshe also has a tshuva that one is not obligated to study medicine, but if he knows it, he is obligated to be matzil nefashos. (If I recall correctly.)

Finally, the gemara in Sanhedrin says that Rav spent 18 months on a farm to learn the difference between a mum kavua and a mum oveir. Why did he not learn this in the beis medrash instead?

only,

you mean even God didn’t know the science before the last few hundred years?? where do you think science comes from? people just invent it?? no way! it’s all what hashem puts into their heads! correct me if i’m wrong, but it was probably created in sheishes yemei breishis.

no one invents anything. it’s all from hashem. “invent” is a word us human people use in this world.

wow you’re really good for me. i never felt so frum in my entire life.

and just by the way, that “whoever” has a name and it’s “Moish.”

talk about “nasty epithets.” you’re not too kind either. maybe we look to learn from example.

While there is much hashkafah that needs to be articulated in this thread, as that is what is really bothering people here, let me just make one brief point.

Our Avodas Hashem in this world is through hester panim. The RBSH hides himself and evidence of himself to give us bechira. If everybody would have Ruach Hakodesh, there would not really be any nisyonos. For example, if Avraham Avinu knew that there was a ram waiting for him all along, then what schar would he get for going through the motions of sacrificing Yitzchok?

Our job in this world is not to achieve Divine powers and communicate with the Divine. As we also learn from Avraham, our job is to do chesed. Gedolah hachnasas orchim yoser meikabalas pnei hashechinah.

Some of the motivation behind the people saying that gedolim know science better than evrybody else is to imply that our job is to separate ourselves from the entire world and smugly declare that we are smarter than all of you, and everything you do is worthless, and we don’t need you. We are special.

But in fact, Avraham was waiting outside his tent to greet people of all types, and was happy to serve even three idol-worshipping Yishmaelim. Our job as Jews is to be meurav im habrios and to be the world’s teachers of midos and chesed and kindness, not to shut everybody out of our lives. Every person and nation has a potential positive contribution to make to yishuv haolam from which we all benefit. We offer 70 korbanos on behalf of all the nations on Sukkos. Only at the end do we offer one for ourselves. We put ourselves last in keeping with anivus.

moish01,

It’s pure heresy to state that Shlomo did not know how to cure Polio using either Sabin or Salk’s methods? Is it pure heresy to state that Chazal did not know what/how/why the Doppler Effect is?

yossiea, i honestly have no idea. all i was trying to say is that human beings don’t create science – and if it’s from hashem, how could ANYONE say that it’s impossible that chazal were knowledgeable in that area.

that’s all.

squeak

hard though it may be

i would recommend you just drop it and move on

i know you feel obligated to protect the Emes

but you said what you said, you are yotzeh, and to be involved in a machloches such as this could be damaging to you.

it wont change anyone. you cant explain a beautiful sunset behind the mountains, to a blind person. especially when he doesnt know he is blind.

in a Gemorra, Chazal talk about the noise that the sun makes.

recently it was discovered that indeed, due to internal vibrations, the sun makes noise.

there is a Gemorrah re: damages, that brings up the problem of a rooster that put it’s head in a glass vessel and shatters it with his crowing.

im not certain, but i think the idea of acoustic waves causing damage is a relatively new scientific concept

(this will be my last post in this thread)

squeak: “This is also the point where the most rabid “pro-freikeit” posters crawl out of the woodworks to deride and disparage. “

I don’t think I saw anyone here pro-freikeit. I did see people calling other people names just because they don’t like the post. Maybe people left because they were fed up with the way certain people post and acted and also the way this place censors, so that one side can usually have most of the say.

Moish, no one is saying it’s impossible, but if Chazal knew the cure for cancer, MY chazal would’ve told everyone about that. It is illogical to state that your ancestors living in the pre-Renaissance era knew ALL the science we know today.

time out – did they even HAVE cancer in those times? i mean i’m sure the concept existed, but why is it so common in the recent years? it’s not like it’s contagious or anything.

and ames, you said exactly what i was thinking.

moish01: I think it is more common now because of radiation that they did not used to have. Although it could have been just as common but they just did not know that it was cancer.

well that’s the practical answer.

i think it’s that Hashem has control in this world and shows it in many ways. illness is one way. used to be people died from the flu. as medications and cures became more advanced, so did diseases. i think it just shows that Hashem is in charge and as knowledgeable and advanced we become, Hashem is always more and can do more.

what do you say? (i should put this in the deep thought thread…)

true. but there are plenty of healthy kids or young people who get cancer. try thinking for a different angle. can’t we admit it’s all Hashem? maybe if we at least give it that it’ll stop. maybe that’s all Hashem wants – for us to admit – “ok, God – it’ll all from you and we’re not the ones in control.”

moish01, the infant mortality rate in those days (even until 100 years ago) was very high. Many children did not make it past 5. Those that did were obviously stronger. In addition, as some here have pointed out, if a person dies at 40, he won’t be dying from some cancers which takes forever to get a person.

ames, if your point were correct, there would be no point in davening or doctors or any hishtadlus. What is the point, if Hashem already decided. It is a lot more intellectually honest, as well as being more in tune with history to state that Chazal were really smart, nice, handsome, etc. people, but they were indeed people. That means that they did not know everything. That is one of the definitions of being a person. Furthermore, should a Jew not daven for a cure for cancer, because Hashem will just pick something else? He might, but that is not up to us, that is up to Him.

feivel, thanks for your advice. I agree completely, and when you look at it, my last post was an exit post anyway.

moish01, you enjoyed the last word for nine months; but it’s time to move on.

There are parallel conversations going on here, ranging from Chazal’s knowledge to evolution, from Teffilla to Hishtadlus, from science to name calling. The main issue here is did Chazal know everything. Then, the question is from where they knew what they knew. And third, could we say that they’re wrong on certain things.

First of all we must realize the mistake of lumping anyone older than ourselves into one pot. Next, let’s take a look at some Gemaras to see.

We find that Amora’im learned their science from their Rebbes and Mishnaios. We find a few places in Shas that R’ Papa says, we see from this Mishna or Braisa that this is dangerous or that that bone extends until that point and so on. You see that if didn’t pay attention to the Goyim of his day. He learned it from his Torah.

On the other hand we also find places where they outright didn’t know. Someone mentioned here earlier the case where Rav observed a farm for months to find out something he needed to know for Hilchos Bechoros. We also find places where they went to ask a doctors opinion for a certain Shaila. Also, during the second Bais Hamikdosh the trumpets broke and they sent them to Egypt for repair. There is also a Gemara which discusses from where the hair grows, from the head or the tip. The Gemara concludes that it grows from the head, since we see it on dyed hair, that as it grows the part closest to the scalp is undyed.

Now, Joseph mentioned the Gemara where a disciple of R’ Yochanon couldn’t believe what R’ Yochanon Darshened until he witnessed it himself, and R’ Yochanon punished him for this. There is another Gemara where R’ Yochanon fell asleep while teaching his disciples, and one student asked another student a couple of worldly questions. He answered him what seemed very reasonable and true. Meanwhile, R’ Yochanon awoke and picked up the conversation. He scolded the one who supplied the answers, and said, you should not say something until you know it for certain as clear as you know that your sister is Assur to you.

This shows us how careful Chazal where not to just say things from the top of the head. If they did not know, they did not say.

The Gemara relates how R’ Elazar complained that no one is Meshamesh him. He said that his students took from him just a drop in a bucket, and he took from his Rebbes as much as a dog licking from the ocean. Anyhow, he went with R’ Akiva and taught him three hundred laws about Koisher Kishuin. He also said that he knows three thousand laws about planting cucumbers. This obviously came along with alot of technical knowledge.

When Hashem taught Moshe Rabbeinu the whole Torah, obviously he had to also know the facts that surround it. The Torah was passed down from Moshe to the prophets, and from them to the Tana’im. So, although alot of knowledge was lost from generation to generation, the Tana’im knew plenty of technical information, not everything. But they did not assume anything on their own.

Now, as for the incidents about R’ Yochanon, another important point is seen, that they knew how to Darshen. One Amora said that Yakov Avinu Lo Meiss. His friend asked him some logical questions on that, and he answered, I’m Darshening a Pasuk. Also R’ Yehoshua learned from a Pasuk how long it takes a snake to have a baby, whereas the philosopher he was contending had to experiment for a long time, and seemingly, nobody else knew this. So anybody who believes in Torah Shel Baal Peh, also believes any and all Drashos Chazal.

The Gemara discusses why honey is kosher while milk from a non kosher animal isn’t. After some discussion, the Gemara says, it must be(e) that the bee doesn’t produce it from itself, it just affects it. We know this to be the case. Many have used this Gemara to prove that Chazal knew the science of the bee. But, if that where the case, they would have stated it right away. On the contrary, they didn’t know this fact until they learned this Mishna!

So my point is that they didn’t know all the science that wasn’t available then, nor did they believe blindly everything that was known then. However their Drashos are true and their interpretations of the Mishna are true, and are part of Torah Shel Baal Peh.