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Yes. And its not an uncommon psak. My pseudo yeshivish sister asked her Rav and got a similiar answer.
oh i dont doubt that its a common answer to that question in the Jewish world today
If I know a man is Jewish I try to avoid the situation as well.
I work with a conservative man. I am able to avoid shaking his hand because he sort of understands. My boss is half Jewish (the right half) and I can avoid that too.
But random people I don’t know? How would I know they are Jewish? Especially if their name is not traditionally, ethnically Jewish?
If your not allowed to, your not allowed to. what’s the question?
Chosson:
Besides that she, along with many others, got a heter.
What’s the heter?
Or that’s where we get our blind “Emunas Chachamim”?
Why is it that by our conveniences we become such “believers” and when it is not to our greatest convenience, we tend to question our Rabbonim?
Gut Gezugt, helpful!!!!!!!!!!
Moq, while I appreciate your arichus, nevertheless I do not believe you are correct in the Rambam. He clearly states that bfarhesia kanaimm pogin bo (and the Rayvad says that is only if he was warned). However, if it was btzina it is a gezeira mishum chasnus (that he might marry her). And if he does marry her, what is the issur? The answer is 4 issurei drabanan. True, the Rambam warns that one should not take this issur lightly, because there is no other issur where one’s children would be born non-Jewish. He quotes a pasuk in navi that one would get kares. But an onesh in navi can’t be on the deoraisa level. If it was, he should have said right away it is asur midoraisa.
Of course this is abhorent and nobody should think he has a heter to do such a thing. However, the point here is about Al tarbeh sicha, and then the discussion changed to shaking hands. If the root issur is drabanan, that is grounds to be meikil on the issurim which branch from there. Since it is not at all clear that shaking hands is derech chiba at all, any more than saying “How do you do, Maam”, there is certainly grounds to rule that it is a safek drabanan.
For a Jewish woman, the root issur is more severe, but still there must be derech chiba. Note that according to the Ramban, there is no deoraisa of lo sikrivu for the issurim which branch off, only for the actual mayseh itself. The rest of the issurim are medrabanan. Note further that this is why some amoraim would pick up the kallah and dance with her, because they knew there was no derech chiba for them on their madreiga.
As far as Reb Moshe, nobody here has yet managed to come up with the tshuva on shaking hands so we can all look it up. But what we do know for sure is that Reb Moshe was matir sitting next to a woman on a bus or train where there is also negia involved, because it is not derech chiba. Shaking hands in a business interview is simple manners and politeness. Is it derech chiba when you do it to a male interviewer (if you are male)? I sure hope not. So why is it derech chiba to a female interviewer?
chosson – “Why is it that by our conveniences we become such “believers” and when it is not to our greatest convenience, we tend to question our Rabbonim?”
well said. Unfortunately it’s all too true.
This reminds me of the Gemara that states that in the times before moshiach, the leaders will be like dogs, who are always looking back to see where their owner is. We’ve seen this already all too often in today’s day in age.
Chosson: “What’s the heter? Or that’s where we get our blind “Emunas Chachamim”?”
Yes, actually. The power of the Rabbonim is to pasken halacha, to both assur and matir. Or do you only follow your Rav’s chumros?
I find it disturbing that people here so readily bash people relying on the pasak of their Rav. Any Rav undoubtedly knows far more about the halacha than anybody on this thread does. Who are you to question a Rav’s pasak?
Caveat: I am not in any way condoning hypocrisy in following a Rav’s pasakim. I am, however, saying that no hypocrisy of such type has occurred here, and I am therefore not sure why everybody is bashing it. SJSinNYC simply stated that her Rav gave her a heter to shake a non-jewish man’s hand – where’s the hypocrisy in that?
Helpful: Call me a critic, but somehow, I doubt that.
sof davar hakol nishma: I was always under the impression that that gemora was referring to secular leaders (a reference to something I believe is called democracy), and I find your comparison between Rabbonim and dogs disturbing.
Just wanted to make a correction in previous post. If one marries a non-Jew, he violates the lav deoraisa of Lo Tischaten Bam. The case where he violates 4 issurei drabbanan is when he is miyached her liznus. So there are 3 levels btzina: One time znus is 1 derabanan. Designating her for znus is 4 derabanans. Marriage is a lav. The Rambam mentions a pasuk in Navi about kares. It seems that is talking about marriage to a non-Jew, but I will check.
I will also check up the teshuvos in Reb Moshe about hand-shaking.
Just checked the teshuvos in Reb Moshe, and in at least two of them he says that frum people (yirei shamayim) who do shake hands hold that it is not derech chiba and we should be dan them lchaf zchus. However, he finds it hard to rely on this heter. He says I don’t see a contradiction to the fact that I was matir buses, because there it is not derech chiba for just about everybody.
(Please note that your writing makes it seem like Reb Moshe is screaming that shaking hands is terrible, and NOT comparable to buses, etc. However, the actual language is much more gentle and understanding, and clearly there is what to rely on for another Rov to pasken differently. It is all a matter of judgment as to how much derech chiba there is in a handshake. He doesn’t say asur lismoch al zeh or chas vshalom lismoch al zeh. He says kasheh lismoch al zeh.)
In social settings, it is much easier to avoid, (like make sure you are carrying a hot plate of chulent or even chopped liver in your hands at all times, so nobody will want to get near you). However, on a business interview or mtg, it is much harder to avoid (even if you excuse yourself for religious reasons), and may cause bad feelings like this guy is a really strict, unfriendly fellow and hard to get along with. With eating kosher, it seems people are much more understanding and do not take it as unfriendly. This is just my observation.
However, I do see a reason to be machmir, because if one lets down his guard too much, then it may lead to touching where it is derech chiba. It is much easier to tell people negia is always assur, rather than making subtle distinctions that it is assur if there is derech chiba and permitted otherwise. Simple rules are easier to follow than leaving it up to people’s judgment in each situation, because where do you draw the line.
Sigh…
Ok-Pashuteh Yid- I will respond to you later as you deserve, time doesn’t allow me to now.
But for the record, there certainly is Halachic Basis for permitting a married woman to shake hands. The question is limp handshake considered affectionate or a mere business formality. The question is it a Maaseh Chibah; there are two valid Halachic ways of looking at it. Actual touching is not forbidden – remember, in a medical context we permit most things, because there is no maaseh chiba. If indeed, it is a mere formality, which you could do with your absolute worst enemy and merciless competitor – then it would be permitted. Even according to the Chazon Ish. The question is it a sign of respectful affection between two colleagues – then it would Yeharog V’Al Yaavor.
Which is it? I am not sure. Neither are many Rabbanim. Some are. Some say it’s assur. Some say it’s mutar. Elu V’Elu.
It certainly is not ‘obviously wrong’.
I have no problem believing that SJS received such a heter.
I personally am stringent on this matter, even when it means insulting a potential client (thankfully, respectful tact and humor have always pulled me through). But let us permit our minds to keep working.
Helpful, that isn’t what I said. I said that if I don’t know if a man is Jewish, I can assume he isn’t. If I find out he is Jewish, I absolutely don’t shake his hand.
MoMoMB – Thank you for that post! I was about to have a nervous breakdown and I’m not even married yet! If your Chosson-Class-Rebbi is still around I am definitely telling my future Chosson to go there! 😉
Helpful, is he a frei Yid? I’m not aware of it.
If I knew someone was Jewish specifically and was going to be put into a situation that I would be expected to shake his hand, I would ask my Rav.
Shaking Hands – I am not a Rav (and I didnt ask one) but I think the obvious difrentiation would be that its not Derech Chiba, no? an easy out. Also, I am just way too lazy to go and explain for 45 minutes why I am not going to be shaking their hand, 2 seconds it’s done, and for the rest of the meeting they arent looking at you like you have horns on your head.
P.S. Don’t tell me they’ll respect you for it. I dont think they do.
Pashuteh Yid – though I still strongly disagree with you as far your application to non-jews (more on that later) – I believe your reading of R’ Moshe is the correct one, and I have reason to conjecture that this was his reasoning as well. R’ Moshe was not known for being unsure of himself. V’Dai L’Chachikima.
I find it interesting that SJS’s posek was mechalek between jews & non-jews – again, I suppose to machmir in an issue of yeharog v’al yaavor and being lenient when it’s not and relying on Rov, I suppose. Interesting (but very valid).
And can we drop the issue of tehora? It’s inappropriate. And totally irrelevant (eshes ish is ervah 24/7).
A certain very respected Rosh Yeshiva from the LES, was FRIENDS with his wife before he married her!
EDITED
Moq, you don’t find it strange he told me not to shake hands of obviously frum men?
Helpful, I would shake his hand. If I knew that he “knew” Jewish law and just didn’t keep it, I would not. I don’t actually go around asking about people’s religious affiliation though.
SJS, I thought he was differentiating between jews & non-jews. Jews have an issur of Lo Sikrevu (which includes maaseh chiba) and would be Yeharog V’al Yaavor. Non-Jews are not included in this prohibition. It would still be forbidden if it were a maaseh chibah, but for different reasons, and less stringent. Still forbidden. Just not Arayos. (This too, would be subject to debate).
I am conjecturing that he is more wary of not calling shaking hands a maaseh chiba when dealing with yeharog v’al yaavor, and willing to permit it – with a non-jew – when the issue is more lax (though still forbidden).
But there is no difference between religious and irreligious jews. That is curious. An Irreligious Jew would be equally stringent; the fact that he is not yet religious is irrelevant to Halacha.
Could you ask him? I’m genuinely curious.
I will have to ask him when I get a chance. My understanding was that unless you know someone is Jewish (and halachically Jewish, not just ethnically Jewish), its not a problem. If you know someone is 100% halachically Jewish, you should avoid it.
I don’t go looking for trouble. I don’t question someone’s background unless I have reason to. Sometimes I make mistakes and I can’t help that.
Moq, thanks for the menschlach tone.
BTW, While Reb Moshe seems to hold that a handshake is more derech chiba than a train, one could even argue the opposite. In the NYC subways there are signs all over warning people not to touch people inappropriately on a crowded train. In other words, some people have actually felt like they were being abused, and have complained. I have never heard of anybody ever complain of any such overtones in a handshake.
But on the other hand, a couple walking while holding hands together is obviously a derech chiba. So it depends on the context.
Am I the only guy here to notice a huge difference in shaking hands and sitting next to someone on a bus or subway? When sitting next to someone you don’t have eye contact there’s no connection and there’s not even a negia (maybe your coats are Oiver!!!) but shaking hands your looking in his eyes and properly touching even though it might just be a form of greeting.
Whats the Dor come to if people are actually debating whether shaking hands with a man is ossur or not???
Sorry bout the strength of tone but…….
Helpful – Well maybe his son was over on his father’s ruling but I doubt it so maybe you are misinterrpriting what R’ Moshe said.
And I’m not sure why I was edited.
Helpful – Next time you meet R’ Reuvein ask him who made the shidduch.
Helpful: “If someone posts here that she has a “heter” for something so obviously wrong, people do not have to accept such claims at face value and have a right – nay, obligation — to question and/or dispute such highly questionable and/or obviously wrong (especially anonymous) so-called heteirim.”
Again, you are no Rav. Therefore, you have no right to “dispute” the pasak of a Rav. Ever. Period. Question what the reasoning behind it, maybe, but to argue? Where do you have smicha from that allows you to paskan halacha?!
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Sacrilege: “I am not a Rav (and I didnt ask one)”
And there’s your problem. Do you have smicha? If not, why do you think you know what the halacha is?
“Also, I am just way too lazy to go and explain for 45 minutes why I am not going to be shaking their hand, 2 seconds it’s done, and for the rest of the meeting they arent looking at you like you have horns on your head. Don’t tell me they’ll respect you for it. I dont think they do.”
I hate to break this to you , but the halacha must be followed even when it’s not the lazy way out, and even when people won’t respect you for it. If the halacha says something is assur, whether it is convenient or not makes no difference: we must do what Hashem tells us to do, whether we enjoy it or not.
MW13- That is a good point. But the thing is that there is a lot of leeway (sp?) in this scenerio and I dont think its such a black and white thing.
Helpful: R’ Moshe also assurs all music, unless it is by a seudas mitzva. But sometimes, we don’t paskan like R’ Moshe.
And besides, your interpretation of R’ Moshe’s teshuva has is not accepted by everybody else here who saw the teshuva.
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Sacrilege: “That is a good point.”
Why thank you.
“But the thing is that there is a lot of leeway (sp?) in this scenerio and I dont think its such a black and white thing.”
I never said it was black and white. However, it is just as important (if not more important) to consult your LOR for the gray areas as it is for the black and white.
Btw, what does “sp” mean?
Helpful: “nobody on this thread indicated they read Reb Moshe’s teshuva and disputes the “interpertation”. In fact there is nothing to “interpert”.”
I quote:
“Just checked the teshuvos in Reb Moshe, and in at least two of them he says that frum people (yirei shamayim) who do shake hands hold that it is not derech chiba and we should be dan them lchaf zchus. However, he finds it hard to rely on this heter. He says I don’t see a contradiction to the fact that I was matir buses, because there it is not derech chiba for just about everybody.
(Please note that your writing makes it seem like Reb Moshe is screaming that shaking hands is terrible, and NOT comparable to buses, etc. However, the actual language is much more gentle and understanding, and clearly there is what to rely on for another Rov to pasken differently. It is all a matter of judgment as to how much derech chiba there is in a handshake. He doesn’t say asur lismoch al zeh or chas vshalom lismoch al zeh. He says kasheh lismoch al zeh.)”
“No one of stature disagrees with Rav Moshe.”
Really? Have you checked every single halacha sefer written in that time? And many of them don’t have indexes like the Iggros Moshe does, so you’d need to know the entire sefer! Again, you are no posaik, don’t argue with those who are.
Helpful: “And no, NO ONE of stature disagrees with Reb Moshe that it is ASSUR to be friends with a girl. Period. End of discussion.”
I’m not sure what inter-gender friendships have to do with anything.
mw13, nobody on this thread indicated they read Reb Moshe’s teshuva and disputes the “interpertation”. In fact there is nothing to “interpert”. Reb Moshe says shaking hands is assur. Who claims Reb Moshe says otherwise?
Reb Moshe also says being friends with a girl is not just assur, it is an issur d’orayso.
No one of stature disagrees with Rav Moshe. Check it out for yourself, and report back if – and who – you think disagrees.
But you have trouble believing that anyone actually paskened against R’ Moshe’s lukewarm teshuvah? Sheeesh. Do you R’ Moshe word is law for all Talmidey Chachamim who come after him? Do you know anything about Halacha? And you can’t possibly believe that SJS’s Rov couldn’t have permitted? Do you know the sugya of Lo Sikrevu? When what were how?
If you have learned the sugya – and say it’s not a possibility – well, I would disagree with you. Again, I don’t think it’s permitted, but I see it as a possibility. Some things are impossible. This is not. It is a gray area. Yes! Those exist! And just because nothing is published with a definete ruling to the opposite does not make it an impossiblity, if the Sugya w/Rishonim & Shulchan Aruch logically leave room for the possiblity!
And if you don’t, we can discuss it. A Rov, learned and competent, may indeed disagree with R’ Moshe – as R’ Moshe did with the greats before him! Sheesh.
BTW, In OC 109 I believe, Reb Moshe says that one who disagrees with him is not only allowed to pasken differently, but is MECHUYAV to do so.
Helpful, as people have stated here umpteen times, the halacha is that only derech chiba is assur. Reb Moshe may feel that a handshake is derech chiba, yet many other fine Rabbanim may feel that it is not. It really is very simple.
As far as the teshuvah about being friends, again it is complex. I believe Reb Moshe found an Avos Dreb Nassan which says Yachol yechabkenah vyinashkena vyidaber imah devarim betailim, T”L Lo sikrevu. Reb Moshe wants to learn that yidaber devarim btailim is inclided in the deoraisa of Lo sikrevu. Yet in another teshuvah, he goes into a very long arichus about yachol yisaper imah meachorei hageder. There he brings a kashya from one of the acharonim who asks where did we ever find an issur on dibur? The acharon remains with a kashya. Furthermore, he brings from a Maggid Mishna who discusses the Rambam that mentions that gesturing, kalus rosh, and many other things get makas mardus. The Maggid Mishna says it is Makas Mardus because it they are all drabanan. So it is not clear that speaking is deoraisa. It would seem that the devarim betailim of Avos Drebbe Nasan is referring only to intimate talk about things that relate to tashmish. This is rather clear from the other Reb Moshe about meachorei hageder, where he explains that it is because it is actually the preparation for tashmish that the fellow wanted. That is why chazal forbid it.
So it is not clear that mere friendly conversation with someone of the opposite gender is forbidden.
Furthermore, as I asked earlier, what if the two of them wanted to get married when they were older? It would then be considered dating which is ok. I know of other cases where people married next-door neighbors who grew up together. One is the daughter of one of the well known Chareidi maggidei shiur on all the national Dial-a-shiur networks who married the learning son of another Chareidi maggid shiur in a Yeshiva. It happens, and is actually a cause for much simcha.
In the case of Reb Reuvain, the story appears in the Reb Moshe Artscroll biography. Her father suddenly passed away very young, and she would often be in Reb Moshe’s house. He was close with the family, and did the tahara for her father.
Helpful, you need to acquire a taste for the depth and complexity of halacha, and the constant counterbalancing factors that go into one of Reb Moshe’s teshuvos. He could either say the Avos dReb Nassan was an asmachta to make it agree with the Maggid Mishna, but there was a Shach that he wanted to make the Maggid Mishna agree with, so he learned the Maggid Mishna that the makas mardus was not because of being derabanan, but because of lav sh’ein bo maysa. Clearly this is not pashut pshat in the Maggid Mishna. Reb Moshes gadlus was in trying to weave a path through his tremendous bekius which often brought him into contradictory situations which he had to iron out.
Those who think a Reb Moshe teshuva is only his last paragraph totally miss his gadlus. Today, people are brainwashed not to think, but to read Reb Moshe’s conclusion like the pope is speaking and scream Daas Torah, end of story. That is not the way Reb Moshe himself wanted them to be learned. He states he has a lot of hanaah when people actually take the time to read the teshuva and debate with him. The gadlus is in his methods.
As far as singing together. Almost all of the poskim I’ve heard permit family members (parents, brothers and sisters) singing together. That includes Rav Vozner who is not a maykil on these matters. I would definitely not equivilate that with shaking hands with another woman. At best it might be equal with shaking hands with ones sister.
Sacrilege: If you never asked your Rav a shailah, why do you think shaking hands is a “grey area”? Perhaps your Rav holds it is assur, period (as most do)? Just because something is in a “grey area” doesn’t mean we can just ignore it.
Helpful, please see an online Teshuva of Rav Yehudah Henkin who shows that there is only one Rishon who holds that chibuk vnishuk is yehareg val yaavor and that is Rabeinu Yonah.
You have also not addressed how the Amora in Kesuvos 17? picked up the kallah. How was he allowed to be over on a yehareg v’al yaavor?
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