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Gemorah in Eruvin:
R’ Yose HaGilili once met Beruria on the road and asked her “By which road should we travel to Lod?” Beruria replied “Fool, didn’t the Rabbonim say (in Avos) “don’t talk excessively with women?” You should have asked “Which (road) to Lod?”
Shulchan Aruch Even HaEzer:
“A person must stay far, far away from the women, and it is prohibited to signal with your hand, to hint with your eyes, to any prohibited women. It is furthermore prohibited to laugh together with them and to be frivolous in her presence, or to watch her beauty. Even to smell her perfume is forbidden….”
Reb Moshe, in Igros Moshe EH 4:60, paskened that it is assur to talk to the opposite gender in a social context, and assur to be friends with them, and even seeming platonic relationships between boys and girls are assur min hatorah.
In the Sefer HaChinuch, mitzvah number 188, it states there that it is assur for boys and girls to talk to each other.
The Shulchan Aruch (E.H. 22:8) and the Aruch Hashulchan (E.H. 22:6) present examples of a man and a woman who grew up together or are related – such as cousins. Libo Gas Bo also applies to a man and a woman who are very friendly with each other, such as those who work together in an office or if the man and woman dated. Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach (cited in Nishmas Avraham 3:94-95) and Dvar Halacha (7:17), state that Libo Gas Bo applies even if the man and woman have only had minimal interaction such as a woman who has visited a doctor a number of times or a man and woman who had some business dealings together.
It is an issur d’oraysah. Rav Moshe, in the Igros Moshe, states that Lo Sikrevu means you can’t talk to girls. Rav Moshe is quoting a statment of Chazal in Avos D’Reb Nosson and rulings of the Ran and others. Avos: “Al tarbeh sichah im haishah” – Do not talk more than necessary with women. The Mishnah continues: “Whoever does talk more than necessary with women causes bad for himself . . . and in the end will end up in Gehinnom!” Re derech chibah: The Halachah (Rambam) prohibits negiyah even in a non-affectionate manner. Casual negiyah is also prohibited — see the Steipler’s Letters quoting the Chazon Ish for details — even if it doesn’t “mean anything”. Even regarding a simple handshake between strangers, Rav Moshe writes that you should not rely on this as a heter.
Rav Moshe addressed the Derech Chibah issue in his Teshuva, saying that whenever boys and girls are friends, even innocently, that is considered Assur, like Derech Chibah. R. Moshe Feinstein repeatedly (Iggeros Moshe, Orach Chaim vol. 1 no. 113; Even Ha-Ezer vol. 1 no. 56) ruled that a man enjoys shaking a woman’s hand and it is therefore
prohibited. The Steipler writes in his letters in the name of the Chazon Ish that it is absolutely prohibited. Regarding a so-called heter that you will embarass her if you don’t shake hands, it’s simple logic: If someone asked you to call them on Shabbos and you telligng them sorry I cant do that would embarrass them for asking, would you be mechalel shabbos to prevent their embarrassment? Or if someone offered you non-kosher food and refusing would embarrass them would you eat treif?
The Gemora (Shabbos 152a) quotes a posuk: “Ki hu amar vayehi” – Hashem decreed, and so it was! “Rav Kahane said, this is a woman. She is just full of dirt and blood, yet everyone runs after her”. Meaning, there’s no logic behind it, Hashem said it should be that way, and it is. It’s a Gezeiras Hakasuv. This is probably why, when Chazal say the angels came down to this world demanding a chance to keep the Torah, the aveirah that defeated them was Arayos. Because even though the angels were physical then, they still retained their angelic intellects which told them philosophically that money honor and power are not worth pursuing in this world. And through their great understanding of the futility of these Tavvos they rejected them. But women don’t work that way. No matter how wise you are the Taavah is still there, so the Malachim were unable to undo their Taavah for Arayos. The only way – the one and only way – to resist women is self discipline. Period. You can’t use your THINKING to fight the Taavah here, you can only use your ACTIONS. You have to resist, discipline, and STAY AWAY. This is why restraint from Arayos is called Kedusha (holiness) as opposed to refraining from any other sin. Refraining from other sins could be holiness, but it could also be simple wisdom. It could be you’re a Sameach b’chlko. Even a non-religious guy would be happier if he was a Sameach B’chelko, so not running after money does not necessarily have to do with religion or holiness. As opposed to Arayos, where “EVERY PLACE you find restraint from Arayos, there you find holiness” (Rashi Kedoshim). Because there is only one possible reason for not doing Arayos — self-discipline, and that’s what we mean here by holiness. This is also why we find more Gedorim and Siyagim against Arayos than any other sin. This is why, even though Sefardim always rule like the Bais Yosef even when the majority of poskim are against him, when it comes to issues of Arayos, writes the Chikrei Lev (II:180b), they are permitted to be strict, even against the Bais Yosef, with support of a majority of poskim.
Rav Moshe Feinstein writes clearly that mixed schooling is forbidden “min hadin”. Rav Ovadiah Yosef quotes him and agrees with him. In a tshuva (Igros Moshe, Yore Deah – Chelek 3, Siman 78) he states: ACCORDING TO ALL AUTHORITIES, CO-ED EDUCATION IS ABSOLUTELY FORBIDDEN. In fact, he says that the nature of this prohibition is so basic and simple, that there is absolutely nothing to talk about, and no room for discussion.
Even Rav Soloveitchik zt”l, who himself founded a co-ed school more than half a century ago, did so only because “he had no choice” – not because he held it was permissable. In fact, I heard that Rav Hershel Shachter (who probably more than anyone else knew what the Rav Soloveitchik held) mentions (in one of his writings) that Rav Soloveitchik told him that he was afraid that after 120 years, he would be questioned by the Heavenly court why he participated in the founding of a coed school.
Going to a mixed school is not merely a matter of a “chumra” in tznius. It involves numerous transgressions of Scriptural prohibitions, and is therefore vehemently opposed by all the contemporary poskim.
And it is self-evident that, especially in the teenage years when the hormones are raging, coming into daily, close contact with the opposite gender, as is inevitable in any co-ed school, involves regular transgression of this prohibition for both boys and girls.
So the idea of a guy/girl friendship being completely free of hormonal input is bogus.
And I must reiterate that the prohibition here is NOT the words that are spoken. It is 100% permitted to speak to a women for a purpose such as business, asking directions, or having any essential discussion. It is the unessential, unnecessary, and especially friendship-oriented interaction that is prohibited.
Rav Moshe’s famous Teshuva (Igros Moshe EH 4:60) prohibiting m’doraisa girls and boys being friends is based on a statement of Chazal in Avos D’Reb Nosson, and a ruling of the Ran. Basically, it says that any friendly interaction between boys and girls is prohibited. Rav Moshe ZTL continues by saying that there is no such thing as a platonic friendship between boys and girls. He points out that objectively boys should logically choose other boys as friends, – they have more in common, they are more alike etc., and not girls – and the only reason someone would prefer a female friend is because she is a female. And that is Asur.
Now Rav Moshe ZT’L does NOT mean that every boy/girl friendship is for the purpose of lust. The dynamics of mixed gender friendships are so different than same gender friendships, and the reason is because of the subtle but oh-so-obvious sexual dynamic taking place between the parties.
Rav Shmuel Neiman, in Nine to Five: A Guide to Modest Conduct for Today’s Workplace writes regarding male-female interaction in the workplace:
It is forbidden to make small talk about matters unrelated to business. Men and women working together should not discuss politics, current events, recent tragedies or gossip, even if they do not do so regularly. Discussing these matters on a daily basis, is a violation of halachos that border on giluy arayos, which requires one to sacrifice his life rather than transgress. (p. 9)
When conversing with female employees or co-workers, one must be careful not to us the word “we,” so that the man and woman are not referred to as one unit. For example, one should not say, “We must talk with the editor,” or “We must purchase that software program.” Rather, he should say, “The editor must be consulted,” or “Please purchase that program.” (pp. 10-11)
It is a custom amongst yirei shomayim not to call a woman other than one’s wife or immediate family member by her first name, thus keeping a respectful distance between the two parties. Referring to a woman by her first name brings inappropriate familiarity into the relationship. Similarly, a woman should refrain from addressing a man other than her husband or immediate family member by his first name. (p. 20)
It is appropriate for male and female employees [to] refrain from all conversation when they meet anywhere outside of the office. This includes not discussing even job-related matters when meeting in the hallway or elevator at work.
So I take it that dos not happen when they are shidduch dating????
Yep, you’re absolutely right. Many do develop into something more. Engagements and marriage! How wonderful! And how sad that anyone should think that is a bad thing. Two of my children married their platonic friends, when they realized that they had developed feelings of attraction to the friends they really cared about. Nothing is better than marrying your really good friend, because you know there was something more to the relationship than merely raging hormones.
Two of my children married their platonic friends, when they realized that they had developed feelings of attraction to the friends they really cared about.
Obviously then it wasn’t so “platonic” in the first place! And if it were, it sure serves as additional proof it doesn’t remain too “platonic” for long. Who knows how many sins occured — without your knowledge — prior to this so-called “platonic relationship” resulting in marriage. Sure, in this case it ended in marriage, but in so many more cases it sure doesn’t.
And that is why “platonic relationships” are assur m’doraisa. (See above posts for sources.)
kasha, thank you so much for all of this, i read through everything and i hope everyone else reads through it too, (especially those who suggested or asked… how can go swimming…to beaches… hypothetically…)
Yep, you’re absolutely right. Many do develop into something more. Engagements and marriage! How wonderful! And how sad that anyone should think that is a bad thing. Two of my children married their platonic friends, when they realized that they had developed feelings of attraction to the friends they really cared about. Nothing is better than marrying your really good friend, because you know there was something more to the relationship than merely raging hormones
Exactly, ask any goy how long they’ve been living with their girl/boy friend and they’ll tell you years! and yet the divorce rate is still high among goyim as opposed to the yeshivishe velt where there is few platonic relationships the divorce rate is low
gavra_at_work – I agree that there are several different types of chumros. However, I would split them up slightly differently:
The first category would be a chumra due to a lack of clarity of which shita we follow halacha li’maseh. There are several sub-groups to this category: Not relying on a generally accepted kula (for example, cholov stam), or being choshaish for rishonim that the Shulchan Orach/Rema didn’t paskan like (not relying on an eruv).
The second category would be gedarim that may not be halavha, but are there to stop you from being over on the halacha. (Note: this does not include gedarim set up by the Rabbonim, because these are now halacha.)
The third category would be chumros that aren’t really chumros at all, but are things that we feel that Hashem would want us to do.
Your categorization works, but it also leaves out what the results should be, and does not differentiate between accepted “halacha” and what we would call “chumra”.
For example, Rabbainu Tam Teffilin is due to a Safek, and the Shulchan Aruch says only a Big Chassid should wear them, but otherwise it is Ga’ava.
The second category is what worries me, as I agree they should be done, but we have Chazal that tell us what Gedarim we should keep (e.g. playing a musical instrument on shabbos) and those we should not (e.g. not eating meat during the year Zecher L’churban). There has been an explosion of “gedarim” in the past 20ish years which were non existent in the prior generations (e.g. four inches), as well as ignoring the actual gedarim the chachamim created (e.g. Kol Sheino Milamdo).
It has almost created an “Ish HaYashar B’Einav Ya’asee” situation, and that scares me.
The third category I would like an example of what you mean, it seems like you are talking about Naval B’Rishus HaTorah & Darchei Noam, but I’m not sure.
(e.g. four inches)
That isn’t a geder. You have to cover the knee. However, the knee must be covered even when sitting, walking, and getting into/out of a car as well, and if your skirt just covers your knee while standing straight it will not cover it in other positions. Therefore, some length has to be added. There is however, no Halachic quantification for this. If you need 4 inches, then it’s 4 inches. If you need 3, 6, or 8, then that’s what it is.
“Exactly, ask any goy how long they’ve been living with their girl/boy friend and they’ll tell you years! and yet the divorce rate is still high among goyim as opposed to the yeshivishe velt where there is few platonic relationships the divorce rate is low “
First of all, you are unfortunately and tragically incorrect, the divorce rate among the Yeshivish has become increasingly higher in recent years. I myself know at least half a dozen couples who broke up within the year of marriage.
Second, please stop talking about the goyim. We are talking about FRUM kids who do not believe in the shidduch dating system. The reason for a high divorce rate among ANY group, is that there is no longer a sense of stick-to-it-iveness that there used to be. There is less stigma attached to divorce today than there once was and it is far easier to get a no-fault divorce today than ever before, and people are no longer willing in our very disposable society, to try to work things out. You need a new radio – buy one, don’t fix the old one.
Kasha, you are mistaken when you talk about “obviously it was not so platonic in the first place.” Of course it was. They started out as friends, and then realized they wanted to change the status to dating, as opposed to just grabbing a cup of coffee with a friend between classes. The IDEAL relationship is when two people who have so much in common as friends, realize their attraction to each other and deepen that friendship into a lifetime commitment. And if you think otherwise, that’s your prerogative, but please don’t project your prejudices onto my family.
Ask anyone in my neighborhood about my kids, you will only hear good things about them, about their middos, their behavior, their derech eretz, and their temimus.
oomis, you conveniently disregarded the point that it is an issur m’doraisa for boys and girls to be “friends”, platonic or otherwise. Apparently Chazal (???? ???? ???), Shulchan Aruch, Maharal, the Ran, Rav Moshe, etc. are insufficient?
http://www.scribd.com/doc/22288885/R-Moshe-Feinstein-on-Platonic-Relationships
(e.g. four inches)
That isn’t a geder. You have to cover the knee. However, the knee must be covered even when sitting, walking, and getting into/out of a car as well, and if your skirt just covers your knee while standing straight it will not cover it in other positions. Therefore, some length has to be added. There is however, no Halachic quantification for this. If you need 4 inches, then it’s 4 inches. If you need 3, 6, or 8, then that’s what it is.
Completely agree. That’s what makes “four inches” so dangerous. Four inches is what they teach in the Bais Yaakovs & Sems (from what I hear), and it really depends on the person (& Skirt?). If they just taught “cover the knee in all situations” that would be good and Halacha (according to most, not getting into that here). Making up a Shiur is being M’Garaya from the Halacha.
An additional example (to get out of Tznius) would be having two sinks, and how a sem tought a friend’s daughter that if she does not have two sinks, she is eating Tarfus.
First of all, you are unfortunately and tragically incorrect, the divorce rate among the Yeshivish has become increasingly higher in recent years. I myself know at least half a dozen couples who broke up within the year of marriage.
That is because we Frum Yidden are concentrating more on externals (e.g. type of tablecloth) vs. internal (e.g. Yiras Shmayim). If Your children are able to shut out the Shtusim and concentrate on the Pennimius, they will Bezras Hashem have a good marriage.
First of all, you are unfortunately and tragically incorrect, the divorce rate among the Yeshivish has become increasingly higher in recent years. I myself know at least half a dozen couples who broke up within the year of marriage.
that might be true (i don’t know who you know or what you define as yeshivish (were not getting into it btw again)) secondly i would believe that the reason for this is based on people being more focused on themselves (either looks or not wanting to change themselves not on the shidduch process)(which is the same reason as the shiiduch crisis)100 years ago when they had shadchanim and the guy never saw the girl until right before they got engaged the divorce rate was exteremly low so there is some element of the goyishe velt in there.
did you ever listen to R. Orlofsky’s speech on platonic relationships btw?
http://www.613.org/speakers/orlofsky.html
http://www.simpletoremember.com/media/a/platonic-relationships/
oomis “The IDEAL relationship is when two people who have so much in common as friends, realize their attraction to each other and deepen that friendship into a lifetime commitment.”
Marriage is not friendship.
Sorry to break it to you, the reason unfortunately yeshivish people divorce today is NOT because of the shidduch system. There are many reasons but the shidduch system has worked for generations and generations, maybe even in a more tznius fashion.
thanks R. moderator if she said no i would’ve put up the site
It is my experience that after a while you get to know your wife
and know her reaction to what you say. for example,
if you would tell your wife shprintze, “you know, yankels
garden looks nice”, she’d say “what’s so nice about it?”
“it’s too gepatchket, & I heard he owes the gardner a mint?”
or if you’d mention something about your great aunt she’d say, “that mach…” you know to avoid such comments and discussions. that’s my point.
oomis1105 – “They started out as friends, and then realized they wanted to change the status to dating”
Tell me, why would they “change the status to dating” if they felt no attraction to each other?
“And if you think otherwise, that’s your prerogative, but please don’t project your prejudices onto my family.”
First of all, you were the one who brought your family into this, not Kasha. Second, a prejudice is by definition about a person, and I do not believe anybody has said anything bad about the middos, behavior, derech eretz, and temimus of your kids. Again, just because somebody says “doing x is wrong’ doesn’t necessarily mean they think anybody who does x has a problem with their middos, behavior, derech eretz, or temimus.
And as Kasha said, look at all the halachos that Kasha so kindly quoted and tell me: Can you honestly say that according to daas Torah, there’s nothing wrong with inter-gender relationships?
“Tell me, why would they “change the status to dating” if they felt no attraction to each other?”
Because,M13, they looked at each other one day and realized the relationship had undergone a subtle change. You clearly did not read or understand my post. I thought I was pretty clear on the subject. There was no attraction when they first became friends, but after many months of friendship of really getting to know each other through long conversations and time spent together in a non-pressurized way, they realized there was substantially more to the relationship. Why you seem to feel this is a BAD thing, I cannot for the life of me figure out.
Don’t we WANT our children to marry people with whom they feel a comfortable close friendship as well as attraction? Why on earth do you keep harping on this? I am not involved in this particular fruitless debate anymore. It is truly pointless.
“Marriage is not friendship.
Sorry to break it to you, the reason unfortunately yeshivish people divorce today is NOT because of the shidduch system. There are many reasons but the shidduch system has worked for generations and generations, maybe even in a more tznius fashion.”
If your first sentence is correct, would you kindly explain to me the meaning of sameach tisamach RAYIM ahuvim? We say it in the sheva brachos. Your marriage partner is your BEST friend, the one person you should be able to count on above all others.
And I happen to disagree with you very strongly. Every single person I know who has divorced after a short marriage has said to me that they did not feel they had nearly sufficient time to get to know the boy or girl, because the shidduch system pushed them along too quickly, and since everything looked good “on paper,” and the parents were eager for the learning boy or the girl with a good job,they took the chance. After they got married and realized what they really had gotten themselves into, they were very disillusioned by the reality of married life to someone about whom they really knew very little, other than the facts that were good on paper. The shidduch system as we know it is NOT working well at all. Never have there been so many single frum boys and girls. We do not live in the shtetl anymore, and what was accepted then is not acceptable to many now. Take off your rosy glasses and really look around at how many FRUM kids in their late twenties and thirties are not married.
oomis hate to break it to you, but “kashe shidduchim kekrias yam suf” wasn’t recently made up. My grandmother recently told me that shidduchim were hard than too. Maybe not a “crisis” but shidduchim were never easy.
As far as divorce is, i also know many divorced people unfortunately and the most i would say, is that only in one case the girl was too naive to pick up a serious problem.
Marriage is not friendship. it’s a whole different realm, you are forming a LIFE together, towards one goal, building a family, raising children al pi torah… that does not have that status of friendship. And didn’t they tell you, one of the first things when you got engaged that your choson is NOT your “new best friend”? it’s much more elevated.
At a bare minimum, your spouse should be your best friend. Shalom bayis is much easier when you love and respect the person you are with.
In general, MO people marry already loving their spouse. Yeshivish people grow to love their spouse. Neither is better, just different (although I could not have married someone I didn’t love).
SJS, your stereotypes are amusing. As with all circles, the “yeshivish” crowd marries with a variety of feeling on their way to the chuppah.
I’m surprised no one mentioned this.
Al Tarbe Sicha… has nothing to do with listening to your wife talk. It has all to do with the man saying more (too much more) than is necessary. This is great advice between husband and wife. Listen more talk less.
And I happen to disagree with you very strongly. Every single person I know who has divorced after a short marriage has said to me that they did not feel they had nearly sufficient time to get to know the boy or girl, because the shidduch system pushed them along too quickly, and since everything looked good “on paper,” and the parents were eager for the learning boy or the girl with a good job,they took the chance. After they got married and realized what they really had gotten themselves into, they were very disillusioned by the reality of married life to someone about whom they really knew very little, other than the facts that were good on paper. The shidduch system as we know it is NOT working well at all. Never have there been so many single frum boys and girls. We do not live in the shtetl anymore, and what was accepted then is not acceptable to many now. Take off your rosy glasses and really look around at how many FRUM kids in their late twenties and thirties are not married.
actually with my wife, just with my phone conversations the connections became greater, first when i was talking to her i had no connection then i felt i was talking to a friend and in the end i felt like she was my sister and the whole dating process took 2 nad a half months b/c i was from out of town, but i hear that in towners take two weeks so i agree for in towners it’s too fast but years is a stretch
Moq, there is absolutely a variety of feelings. But in general, its hard to love someone you’ve known for 2-3 months. Knowing your fiancee for longer (usually 9-12 months) means you are generally more likely to already love your spouse, not just like and admire them.
I don’t think I’ve ever heard a MO person say “I’ll grow to love him” but I have heard quite a few Yeshivish people say it. Note the “in general” – its not an ironclad rule.
Helpful, that says nothing of the happiness of marriages. Certain communities look down on divorce so much that people would rather stay in bad, abusive marriages than get divorced.
I have seen statistics that do show dating length does not necessarily corrolate to length of marriage. But those studies include those who live together before marriage* and do not concentrate on religious groups. I would be surprised if levels of divorce in MO communities was vastly different than in right wing communities. I have not seen any data though.
What I’ve heard (and haven’t seen statistics so take this for what its worth) is that often people are living together and feel their relationship start to break apart so they get married or have a child in an attempt to solidify their relationship, which does nothing to actually fix their problem.
SJS
in “the good marriage” – an excellent study of 50 long lasting successful marriages, it indeed states that couples found love either before- and sometimes afterwards (getting married based on mutual respect, admiration, attraction, and shared goals). Indeed, it can happen both ways everywhere.
Oomis-
Alas, you are indeed naive about what actually happens in our communities, as you clutch to this that all this can lead to is marriage. I know, know, you are a most respected matriach. But reality respects no one. I wish it were so. It’s not that way. Nor has it been since the dawn of time.
oomis1105 – I cannot for the life of me fathom how you can possibly believe that inter-gender relationships will will lead to engagements, but not cause aveiros. But if you wish to believe that is the case, that is your right.
However, you failed to answer my question: In light of all the halachos that Kasha posted, do you honestly think that according to daas Torah, there’s nothing wrong with inter-gender relationships?
_______________________________________________________
nossond – “I’m surprised no one mentioned this. Al Tarbe Sicha… has nothing to do with listening to your wife talk. It has all to do with the man saying more (too much more) than is necessary. This is great advice between husband and wife. Listen more talk less.”
Good point.
Moq, I’m not disputing that.
I wonder if “al tarbe” includes virtual “sicha” – such as chatting with women in an on-line coffee room…?
Hmmm…you are right, srp. Definitely right.
Thank you for pointing that out.
Point taken.
I bow out.
what’s the definition of “sicha” i don’t think if it’s l’toeles it applies
Time is short. A few thoughts:
1) The subject is not anywhere as clear cut as Kasha makes it out to be. As Reb Moshe dismisses right away in his teshuva, Al tarbeh is only a midas chassidus. That means advice that Chazal give. Often Chazal use extremely strong language to discourage certain things, when they are actually even permitted or far less severe. Chazal even warned about idle chatter with the same gender in Kesuvos (Al yashmea devarim betailim lozno, mipnei she hen nichvos techila l’avarim). Chazal wanted people to focus on accomplishing in Torah and Chochma and Chesed and not to get sidetracked with things that can potentially consume all one’s time. As always, seichel rules the day. If a wife needs time with her husband or if a poor almana needs to be comforted, one should give them al the time they need. This is chesed, no different than any other.
2) Note that Lo Tinaf is a bein adam lachaveiro. This is why one who would not save a woman for fear of touching her is a chasid shoteh. He thinks he is doing a mitzvah, when in fact the whole purpose is not to take somebody away from her husband. Therefore, when touching somebody’s wife will save her for her husband and loved ones, there is no issur.
3) Note that Beruria who used very harsh language to Rebbe Yossi that he wasn’t frum enough, ended up being seduced by a Talmid elsewhere in shas. (Rashi in A”Z?)
4) The Rabbi who told Oomis that women don’t need to wear nail polish ever is quite disconcerting. Do men ever need to wear ties? Do people ever need to buy art for their walls? Do women ever need dresses, sackcloth works just as well. Do women ever need jewelry? Do people ever need orthodonture, if they are not in any pain and can eat? What on earth did he mean. Note that the Rambam at end of Chap 11 of Issurei Biah states that women should always use all their makeup even during niddah so they remain attractive to their husbands. it is a shame when women misunderstand tznius and think they are doing a mitzvah by dressing as a shmatta.
5) If an opposite gender relationship can potentially lead to marriage, how in the world can it be assur? How is it different than dating. There is no shiur on how many dates one is allowed to go on.
6) As far as shaking hands with a non-Jewish woman for business, consider the following. What is the worst that can happen? Suppose the man actually did a complete maaseh with her. What did he violate? Answer, a drabbanan (Rambam based on gemara in A”Z). So how severe could shaking hands be? the analogy to Kashrus seems to be difficult, because A) that is deoraisa, B) that is bein adam lamakom, whereas this is bein adam lachaveiro. In addition, I heard in the name of one of the acharonim that not only is it muttar, but if one doesn’t shake the hand of a woman who extends it, it is a huge chillul hashem and makes Jews seem like barbarians with no manners.
Oddly, those with shorter dating have longer marriages.
Well, they have longer to be married.
Helpful: please provide a source that shaking a women’s hand is 100% assur.
“Didn’t you guys ever have chosson classes?”
I will give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they are still single.
“They say that it is pointing out that this Masechta is Torah”
True, but that doesn’t mean it is binding halachah. We don’t wait until 15 to teach gemara.
‘Rav Moshe Feinstein writes clearly that mixed schooling is forbidden “min hadin”.’
His cousin Rav Soloveitchik z’tz’l disagreed. See below.
‘Even Rav Soloveitchik zt”l, who himself founded a co-ed school more than half a century ago, did so only because “he had no choice” – not because he held it was permissable.’
Not true.
Here are The Rav’s own words, in writing to a rabbi who asked a shilah about the permissibility of teaching Torah she-bal peh to women. It is very significant because this is one of the very rare examples of a written halachic tshuvah from The Rav. This is an except from an article by Rabbi Seth Farber in 7 of Conversations, the journal of the Institute for Jewish Ideas and Ideals. A quick Google search will find it.
“Please accept my apologies for not answering your letters sooner. The delay was due to my overcrowded schedule. As to your question with regard to a curriculum in a coeducational school, I expressed my opinion to you long ago that it would be a very regrettable oversight on our part if we were to arrange separate Hebrew courses for girls. Not only is the teaching of Torah she-be-al peh to girls permissible but it is nowadays an absolute imperative. This policy of discrimination between the sexes as to subject matter and method of instruction which is still advocated by certain groups within our Orthodox community has contributed greatly to the deterioration and downfall of traditional Judaism. Boys and girls alike should be introduced to the inner halls of Torah she-be-al peh. “
I was just learning tonight with a young Rabbi who went to elementary school and high school with his Rebbitzen. They now have two kids together. So yes, sometimes it leads to more! May there be more such “more”!!!!
“Oddly, those with shorter dating have longer marriages. “
My wife and I got engaged on the second date. I hope your statement holds for us! 🙂
I just wish to add my personal experience.
Me and my wife met via a shadchanit, and from the second date on took everything in our own hands (being BTs both, that’s obvious). We met 12 times before we got engaged, and we met at least 20 times after that as well. We never touched each other even for one second during all those times. But we really got to know each other, and when the big day came and passed, we really didn’t have much to fear and didn’t have any uncertainties.
I feel that we did it exactly the right way. Perhaps others should also davka continue to meet after getting engaged. The traditional way is that once the decision has been made, after the vort, the couple do NOT meet any more, at all, until the chassunah. If they were to meet, and behave in a responsible way, they would get to know each other much closer, and would still be able to decide to cancel it all if they discover they made a mistake and really shouldn’t get married. Now of course breaking off an engagement isn’t much fun to say the least – but isn’t it preferable to divorce in the first year?!
Oddly, those with shorter dating have longer marriages.
I wish to add that it is nearly impossible to prove that dating for a shorter amount of time is an indicator of a better marriage.
Since the groups who date shorter have many sociological differences, the disparities would need to be controlled for. That would be impossible, unless people from each group agreed to be part of a massive social experiment, and since the people who agreed would be self selecting, it would still be inaccurate.
It is possible that if frum Jews were to date for several years and then have a multi year engagement, it would result in even better marriages. (I am not advocating it.)
Helpful, please post the sources about shaking hands from Reb Moshe.
In general, the way I look at it is like this. I personally didn’t create the terrible yetzer hara men have for women. In addition, I didn’t create women to begin with. If it were up to me, I would have created maybe only a few, and on a remote desert island. But they are all over the place. Many studies have shown, and Charlie who is an expert in Statistics can back me up on this, that up to 50% of all people are women! And this cuts across all socioeconomic, geographic and religious categories. Yes, every single religion and group has a huge problem of women. For a long time this was swept under the rug. Many groups would claim or believe that they were men only. Gradually it became known that this conforting thought was not the case. It was discovered that even among the most religious Jews, a huge number were women. This terrible problem of society in general which we thought we were immune to, managed to infiltrate our religion. Finally Rabbanim are dealing with this. And whether the families were rich or poor seemed to have no effect on the statistics. The very best families fared no better.
It is better that it is out in the open, because now we can come up with rational strategies for dealing with the female problem. It is nothing to be embarrassed or ashamed about if you have one in your own family. They are all over the street. It is likely that if you take a train, you will encounter these creatures. They have been known to go to stores, libraries, colleges–even synagogues! I don’t think anybody knows the true extent of the problem. The govt needs to invest huge amounts of money now to find a solution before it is too late. They are literally swarming about town, a silent infestation that threatens to take over.
But seriously, since there is no way to avoid them, it is hard to believe that the Torah wants us to give up every possible activity, because there may be a woman there. Are we really supposed to spend all our energy avoiding 50% of the population?
Note that in Sotah the gemara says that a husband who is overly strigent with his wife will cause embarrassment to her and people will say mai hai dka bodeles min haanashim. (What is with her that she separates from men.) There must be some happy medium which allows people to function normally, but stay away from potentially problematic situations. I don’t think that locking oneself in a room is the answer.
“The traditional way is that once the decision has been made, after the vort, the couple do NOT meet any more, at all, until the chassunah.’
Who says so? Maybe in VERY chassidish circles and some types of yeshivahs, but I have never heard of this among mainstream frum people.
RAYIM ahuvim, sof davar, rayim ahuvim (that means loving FRIENDS). I disagree with you.
6) As far as shaking hands with a non-Jewish woman for business, consider the following. What is the worst that can happen? Suppose the man actually did a complete maaseh with her. What did he violate? Answer, a drabbanan (Rambam based on gemara in A”Z). So how severe could shaking hands be? the analogy to Kashrus seems to be difficult, because A) that is deoraisa, B) that is bein adam lamakom, whereas this is bein adam lachaveiro. In addition, I heard in the name of one of the acharonim that not only is it muttar, but if one doesn’t shake the hand of a woman who extends it, it is a huge chillul hashem and makes Jews seem like barbarians with no manners.
Let’s start with shaking hands. When speaking of Jewish woman – any Jewish woman- religious, irreligious – she is an Ervah. That means, there is an Issur – D’Orayasah! of Lo Sikrevu – getting close. This in fact Yeharog V’Al Yaavor. All poskim agree that Lo Sikrevu – that is, a Maaseh Chiba , a physical action of closeness – is forbidden. Hugging – yeah, you have throw yourself under a bus rather then hug an ervah. Or let yourself get electrocuted. Or eating by red ants. Or jump in a meat grinder. Eaten by tarantulas.
This is Halacha L’maaseh.
R’ Moshe writes with shock that he heard someone said that shaking hands is not calling a maaseh chiba, and says it’s very hard to understand. And we’re with – nevermind d’orayasah – Yeharag V’Al Yaavor.
Now that before you’ve shook the womans hand, you inquire as to her yichus – well, you asks what’s so bad, can’t you just sleep with her? Heck it’s only a derabban!
Wow, I have to respond to this one, because publicly writing that sleeping with a gentile woman is a drabban is immensely stupid & misleading.
If it is Derech Ishus – oh, you get Kares. If it’s done publically – you get skwereed, prefebably by a aidele Kanai with a spear. This all the Rambam writes. Even if it’s not Derech Ishus.
The Ran in Sanhedrin says that even B’Tzinah has Kares & Yehareg V’Al Yaavor.
You know, like Zimri. Heck, it probably wasn’t all that bad anyway. What was pinchas thinking?
So mean once, with no feelings what so ever – and no one ever finds out. Oh – and why worry about that?
The question that Rambam deals with is what Onesh you get. The Nemukey Yosef – says in Sanhedrin that if you hold that the Malkoes is Drabban – it is still Yeharog V’Al Yaavor. Yeah, it means find the nearest bus.
In conclusion, being with a goyah is Yeharog V’Al Yaavor – even according to the Rambam.
Yes, so you are playing with fire. The Rishonim deal Lo Sikrevu by a non-jew ….but you are being silly. And irresponsible, to post a technicality in Rambam.
The question is if shaking hands are a maaseh chiba. But don’t make light of sleeping around. But if it is a Maaseh Chiba – well, you’ve got to be a barbarian.
I asked my Rav about shaking hands prior to starting work. He told me it was not an issue. I should let someone extend their hand first but if I was supposed to be the one to do it (based on work place etiquette) that was ok too. And to not shake hands of obviously frum men of course.
so your Rav told you that there is no problem for a married Jewish woman to shake the hand of a man (not frum)
interesting
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