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Japan Air Lines just announced that their seat maps for most international flights will show whether a seat had been reserved for babies (under 2yo) so that other passengers would know in advance and plan accordingly since some would prefer not to pay several thousand dollars for a 14 hour flight with the possibility of sitting next to a crying infant. Perhaps El Al might show the gender of those with advanced seat assignments so that all the big tzadikim who delay flights because they want their seats changed at the last minute to avoid sitting next to a woman might be able to avoid such challenges. Aside from possible legal questions for the El Al lawyers and likely objections from womens’ rights group, might this type of seatmap mitigate the problem? Given how many seats these days are held for airport assignment or last minute changes, the idea may be impractical and ineffective but the concept was my first thought after reading the about the new JAL seatmap format.
You need to frame it in terms of “protecting women” from harassment. Thereby by identifying the gender of nearby seatholders you “allow women to choose to sit next to a woman to avoid the risk of harassment”.
Framing it as such can get it implemented whereas framing it as to help protect morality will get it shot down by the leftists and anti-religious.
The problem though is the people that identify as a different gender than what they were born with
Under 2 you dont need a seat
GH
That would defeat the entire purpose of not sitting next to womenAre you people so far from the concept of kedushah that you can’t imagine that there are people who do care?
Why the need to mock?
It is a chilul hashem in some cases, you can try to avoid it In a not obvious way, but when it will cause a chilul hashem you should not
Indeed this was what I wrote when the issue first flared up, and the fact that El Al refused to implement such a simple solution proved to me that they were not interested in resolving the issue, and were motivated only by hostility to religion. It would be very simple to implement both in prebooking and in airport assignment.
Even simpler, they could provide an explicit option to ask for seating next to someone of the same sex, and do the assignments that way. If there was enough demand on a particular flight they could even have single-sex sections. This is a very simple idea, that must have occurred to them but they refused to consider it.
@Millhouse
It may seem a simple solution to you, BUT in many of the US jurisdictions from which they fly, merely offering a singles sex section or asking the question violates equal rights in a public accommodationUnfortuantely Daas Yochid is becoming daas yochid. He’s absolutely right!!!
My friend took care of this quiet easily. The woman in the middle absolutely would not budge, out of “principle”. Oh, she’d definitely entitled.
He just told her he’s out on parole … she went flying…Another cute anecdote I heard of an adam gadol riding on a bus in Eretz Yisroel. A woman went and sat down beside him.. He didn’t want to embarrass her and get up.. So he told he in a hushed tone “btw I have Cruspadin”. And she rushed out. (Cruspadin is the targum for Tzitzis!)
“Even simpler, they could provide an explicit option to ask for seating next to someone of the same sex, and do the assignments that way. If there was enough demand on a particular flight they could even have single-sex sections. This is a very simple idea, ”
That would probably go just as smoothly as the concert for chareidim in Afula.
He just told her he’s out on parole … she went flying…
So he lied for the sake of something which isn’t actually an issur?
Is it an sin to sit next to a woman?
Is it an sin to sit next to a woman?
It is a sin to even enjoy looking at a woman’s pinky finger.
Shulchan Aruch, Even HaEzer 21:1
צריך אדם להתרחק מהנשים מאד מאד
A person must stay very far from women.
CTL, that just shows the silliness of these laws. Of course, NYS takes the cake banning discrimination on the basis of facial hair or ethnic hair style. However, just as government may accommodate religion (e.g. by allowing time off due to religious observance) sp too should this option be allowed. Having written that, Rav Moshe ruled(IM EH 2:14) that there is no prohibition even on the NYC sardine cans (the subway) as any touching is non-affectionate.
From a news clip: Air India is reserving the third row of its economy section for women only, according to The Hindu newspaper. Lone female domestic flyers will have the option of reserving these six seats at no additional cost starting Jan. 18.Jan 12, 2017
Why shouldn’t ELAL come up with smart solution?“It is a sin to even enjoy looking at a woman’s pinky finger.“
Cherrybim wasn’t asking about if you enjoy it because that would apply even if the opposite gender was a few rows ahead
1. The surgical (sanitary) mask is a brilliant idea.
2. Air Canada staff will no longer greet ‘ladies and gentlemen’ onboard planes: “We will be amending our onboard announcements to modernize them and remove specific references to gender,” a media spokesperson for the company said.
CA: See my post immediately following the one you quoted, verbatim quoting S”A EH 21:1.
Joe,
I did and I’m not dealing with that post
And anyways that שו״ע would apply even a row back
Joseph then would agree that it is not a sin to sit next to a woman; rather it is a sin to enjoy looking at a woman’s pinky finger.
It is also not the responsibility of the airlines that customers not violate their moral weaknesses when it is too late to start rearranging airline seating.
Perhaps, people should not risk traveling so close to the start of Shabbos and, if it a problem for them, they should likewise request special seating prior to arriving at the airport or they should take their wives with them when traveling, no matter the hardship.cherrybim: Your opening point only addressed the point; it missed the Shulchan Aruch quoted.
Regarding your second point, it isn’t a “weakness”; it is a Shulchan Aruch even if you injudiciously think you’re “strong”.
Additionally, requesting a seat change for this reason is no different from a practical standpoint from requesting a seat change in other to sit together with your children or relatives or whomever you’re traveling with that was originally seated elsewhere or because you don’t want a middle seat or don’t want to sit next to a baby or need to be closer to the front etc. If you’re okay with any of those last minute seat changes you have to be okay with a similar seat change request for moral or religious observance reasons.
I am against chillel Hashem or chillel Shabbos, especially if it can be avoided by taking care of issues before they become problems. That is the shulchan aruch way.
cherrybim: How do you realistically suppose the best way is to insure one does not get squeezed next to a woman on a 12 hour flight in order to remain in best compliance with S”A EH 21:1?
I think the most practical methodology would be to use the same courtesy request someone needing to ask for a seat change to sit next to a family member placed elsewhere on the airplane or someone unable to sit next to the baby or needing to be closer to the exit to quickly catch a connecting flight.
Last minute seat change requests are a common and accepted possibility.
Joseph, not when 10 to 15 men are making the request and refuse to sit and delay the flight. If I have an aisle seat, I won’t move to a middle seat for a 12 hour flight to accomodate someone who is machmir on sitting next to a woman
To Joseph: “How do you realistically suppose the best way is to insure one does not get squeezed next to a woman on a 12 hour flight in order to remain in best compliance with S”A EH 21:1?”
You are required to spend all your money to avoid an issur so if you classify it as halachically forbidden then either buy 2 seats or if you can’t afford to that, then don’t fly at allMichael: Kibud Av V’Eim is mdoraisa and visiting one’s parents is halachicly required. There are various times and situations where flying is absolutely necessary and even halachicly mandated.
And requesting the same courtesy seat change as other flyers, both gentiles and Jews, do is completely realistic.
There are various times and situations where flying is absolutely necessary and even halachicly mandated.
rubbish. You may have halachas that require flying to get to them, but the flying is not halacha. It’s that word twist thing. Halacha does not require the flying, and if it does, then include a second seat in the cost of the halacha observance. Why is that not acceptable to you. Money should not be an issue.
SL: Why are you militantly against a Torah Jew trying to best adhere to Shulchan Aruch EH 21:1 with a seat change request but are okay with a goy making a seat change request to sit next to a family member, away from a baby or closer to the exit to quickly make his next flight?
You’ve never demanded that the aforementioned gentile purchase a second seat. Is that demand only reserved for a poor Jew borrowing money for one seat to go to do a mitzvah such as Kibud Av V’Eim or burying a relative?
You are required to spend all your money to avoid an issur…
What’s the source for that?
To add to syag’s post to joe,
Nowhere in Halacha does it say you have to live a flying distance away from your parents
This is probably the reason (besides other things) that joe still lives in his parents basement 🤔😜
“SL: Why are you militantly against a Torah Jew trying to best adhere to Shulchan Aruch EH 21:1 with a seat change request ”
Source quote please“but are okay with a goy making a seat change request”
Source quote please
“You’ve never demanded that the aforementioned gentile purchase a second seat. ”
Why would I give a hoot what a gentile does on an airplane?
“You’ve never demanded that the aforementioned gentile purchase a second seat.”
Shaichus? I never even joined the conversation. I only jumped in when you tried to imply that flying on a plane was a halacha and that is not true. You may need to fly on a plane to perform a mitzvah/halacha, and If flying is the only option you have to perform a certain mitzvah, huge if, then what business do you have putting a price cap on it?
” Is that demand only reserved for a poor Jew borrowing money for one seat to go to do a mitzvah such as Kibud Av V’Eim or burying a relative?”
Are you rationalizing? Wow! What about the fact that i couldn’t afford lulav and esrogim, wine or fleish for 20 people for 10 meals. Why is this different? Except, of course the obvious fact that flying is not a halachik requirement.
“Source quote please”
Shulchan Aruch, Even HaEzer 21:1
צריך אדם להתרחק מהנשים מאד מאדA person must stay very far from women.
“Why would I give a hoot what a gentile does on an airplane?”
Forget a gentile. Do you insist a Jew should buy second seat rather than making a seat change request to sit next to a family member, away from a baby or closer to the exit to quickly catch his connecting flight leaving shortly after arrival of the current flight?
Shulchn Aruch, Even HaEzer 21:1
I asked you for the quote source in MY post where I said that I was “militantly against a Torah Jew trying his best to adhere to the S”A” You can’t, because I didn’t. But nice try answering a different question instead.
Do you insist a Jew should buy second seat rather than making a seat change request to sit next to a family member, away from a baby or closer to the exit to quickly catch his connecting flight leaving shortly after arrival of the current flight?
The conversation was about buying a seat instead of holding up a flight or making others move seats (with or without their consent). To that I answer absolutely. I never condone putting out others for your personal benefit, religious or otherwise. Your time is not more valuable than theirs and even the Torah doesn’t get rolled in front of the kehillah for that very reason. So yes, yes.
And do I stick to it in real life as well? yes.
My father insisted no pictures be taken at my siblings wedding while the guests sat around and waited. We forfeited many things in the name of keeping others from being inconvenienced. Our blood is not redder and our mitzvos are not more valuable. I was raised that way and I raise my children that way.
I once sat at a pharmacy 30 minutes before licht bentching waiting for antibiotics. I had already been there for an hour and was waiting impatiently, davening to get home before shkia. Some guy in my community waltzes in at this 30 minute point to get blood sugar strip refills. He started yelling at the pharmacist who told him it would be a 20 minute wait. He threatened her with every “its my religious holiday and you can’t make me late” story he could think of at the top of his lungs. Had she given in to mr. narcissist, I, who waited for over an hour, would have had to walk home in the snow.
Joseph, Torah observance is not about “bishvili” only. Sometimes its about being that speck in the universe.SL: You’re bringing in a bunch of extraneous points irrelevant (and not part of the question or described scenario) to the primary issue of your unreasonable insistence that someone purchase a second empty seat when you don’t insist the same if the seat change request rather than to sit next to the same gender is instead to sit away from a cranky child, sit next to a family member seated elsewhere or to sit closer to the exit to quicker catch a connecting flight.
A seat change request to sit next to a family member, someone of the same gender or away from a cranky child is a normal everyday occurrence in every airport that is equally unobjectionable regardless of any of the aforementioned underlying reasons the customer is making the request.
Yes, I agree you should smile to your neighbors. But that hasn’t to do with the question here.
SL: You’re bringing in a bunch of extraneous points irrelevant (and not part of the question or described scenario) to the primary issue
just playing your game. See you said that halacha requires a person to fly and I said there is no such halacha.
Period
End of interaction.then you added other stuff and quoted me as saying things I never said and asked me to answer a question.
All off topic and all on your initiative.your unreasonable insistence that someone purchase a second empty seat
my insistence was that it is not required by halacha to fly somewhere. That was your claim and I refuted it.
I am still waiting for you to cut and paste from my posts all the comments you say I said. Instead you keep deflecting.
SEPERATE from all that you asked if I think people should purchase an empty seat INSTEAD OF BEING MIVAZE THE PUBLIC. I answered yes.
Recap – you said flyng is mandated by halacha. I said you are making up halachas. You went off topic.
SL: You’ve demonstrated an incapability to follow a conversation as well as an inability to understand what is being said. As such it will be pointless to point out the various gross inaccuracies in your recap, understanding of what was said as well as logic.
Have a gevaldik Shabbos and a Gutte Vinter!
Good old joseph. Leaving is always easier than getting called out.
Calling you out wasn’t easy but rest assured that I haven’t sent my goodbyes to you.
I can’t tell if your acting like a two year old or attempting humor.
I’ll repost the list of comments you said I made and await the verification. Otherwise, just admit you made it up.
“SL: Why are you militantly against a Torah Jew trying to best adhere to Shulchan Aruch EH 21:1 with a seat change request ”
Source my quote where I said that please
“but are okay with a goy making a seat change request”
Source my quote where I said that pleaseThe days when the Shulchan Aruk was written, even gentile women dressed far more modestly, so in my opinion there is more danger of inappropriately looking at women and seeing far more than just a “pinky” during the time spent walking around the airport terminal than when seated when you can simply read.
The best advice I can give is that when it says “stay far away from a woman” it means stay away from thinking about women in your mind. Don’t get caught up in long conversations.
We need to respect the fact that we are only one person amidst many all legitimately seeking to get to their destination on time. I book window seats and I can keep to myself like that.I didn’t read all posts but I want to jump in a bit
I believe it’s currently against regulations to purchase more than one seat per person, if not outright illegal
This is due to anti terror stuff. I looked into it when trying to purchase two seats for a heavy traveler and that I. What I was told.
As to spending money to avoid a lav, the chafets Chaim brings that halacha ,though I don’t have the sefer near me now to look up the exact source. He is discussing possible loss of your job due to not speaking L”H and he says it’s not allowed because you must give up all you have, to not be over “just like by every lav where you are required to give up all you own to not be over ”To the fellow who didn’t like the lying “parole ” trick
You seem to have forgotten.
We are all out on parole.
Our souls come down for a limited freedom where our every action is watched and we will have to give an accounting for everything.
Is that not parole???“Otherwise, just admit you made it up.”
Shtika kihodaa
David: The fact that women dress far more immodestly nowadays means even moreso to follow the Halacha in the Shulchan Aruch to stay far away from women. Your boich svara limitation of a clear-cut Shulchan Aruch doesn’t hold water when that limitation is against what the Mechaber actually says in his psak.
The solution is not to buy 2 seats in economy class but to buy a business class seat. The seats are wider and fully recline so you can sleep well. There is ample room to daven at your seat without going in the aisle. Arm rest is bigger enough to support your Talis and Tefillin bag. If you are traveling with your wife you wouldn’t be seating next to some strange women as there are only aisle or window seats
Abba
The shulchan aruch says נשים
Why doesn’t that apply to ones wife
Additionally, what if she’s a נידה?
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