Ah Gutten Erev Shabbos

iced -“Is there an inyan to not say Gut Shabbos before it is Shabbos?”

It comes from “1” Rosh Hayeshiva -so if you’re his Talmid don’t say Gut Shabbos before Shabbos.

My husband told me that there can be an issue with being mekabel Shabbos if you tell someone Good/Gut Shabbos after mincha on Erev Shabbos. That’s why I just got in the habit of wishing people a Gutten Erev Shabbos all day Friday.

Health – “My point was I don’t know anyone besides one RY who said you have to follow this R’ Akiva Eiger…Unless you’re telling me e/o Paskens like this R’ A. Eiger -I see no reason to refrain from saying “Gut Shabbos” on Fri. Stop mixing up Chumros with Halacha!”

I don’t know your level of yedios, but with respect I ask, have you heard of the Biur Halacha (it is authored by the Mishna Brura and published in that sefer)? The M.B. in his Biur Halacha paskens like that R’ Akiva Eiger (although he adds some unrelated qualification).

I think nearly everyone follows the halochos of the M.B., it is not considered a “fringe” daas yochid, or frivolous chumros!!!

shmendrick -“I don’t know your level of yedios, but with respect I ask, have you heard of the Biur Halacha (it is authored by the Mishna Brura and published in that sefer)?”

This is pure Chutzpa!

“The M.B. in his Biur Halacha paskens like that R’ Akiva Eiger (although he adds some unrelated qualification).

I think nearly everyone follows the halochos of the M.B., it is not considered a “fringe” daas yochid, or frivolous chumros!!!”

Actually you were just Megaleh Ponim B’torah Shelo K’halacha.

Don’t worry because I’m sure s/o told you this and you didn’t actually look it up – so you’re only a Shoggeg.

When I first responded to you -I was going from memory, but you scared me – so I looked it up. Where did you pick this up? Whoever told you this is an Am Haaretz Gomor.

Just for the curious all the Biur Halacha says is that R’ A. Eiger is Mesufak if you can be Yotzay the Mitzvos Aseh of Kiddush with saying “Shabbos Tova”. The very next words he says -“It’s (This is) a Pelah etc…”.

This is what happens when you take on a Chumrah and you think you’re Frummer than e/o else.

First you say that it’s Halacha – if you say Good Shabbos that it’s a Kabbolah when you didn’t even mean it, like on Fri., not like the R’ Akiva Eiger were you meant it because you said Good Shabbos on Shabbos.

Then you say we Pasken like this R’ Akiva Eiger, which we don’t!

Go back to whomever told you this and tell him to go back to school before he tells e/o False Halachos.

shmendrick -“Health – “why take on this Chumra?””

My post wasn’t put up yet. We crossed posts.

Heath, if you have a Piskei Tshuvos (by my chaver tov Rav B.Z. Rabbinowitz), look up s. 271, s”k 6 at foot note 66.

There he brings the shitos both for and against the underlying rule which is the MG”A who holds that we are yoteh kiddush midoraysa in tefilah, since “saying” is all what is requird midoraysa. This is consistent with Reb Akiva Eiger and the Tshuvos HaRarshba (Vol 4, s. 295). The olom follows this MG”A (which is why women who normally may not daven ma’ariv during the week, daven ma’ariv Friday night – to equalize their chiyuv of kiddush with their husband).

The M.B. has issues with the MG”A and RA”E as I noted but that is besides the point.

Also and related, see Be’er Hetev s. 307 s”k 2 and Mishna Brura s”k 5 in name of Shal”ah the ma’alah of saying “shabbata tova” (gut shabbos) – v’ten l’chochom v’yechkam od.

In any event, since we are dealing with a situation of issur dioraysa of chilul shabbos, this is very serious, and one must be machmir rather than laugh off the issue.

This isn’t merely a debate over ego matters or to shtoch someone or be holier than thou.

Be mekabel for your own sake, and if not, at the very least do not let your ego be machshil es harabim to accept your folly.

shmendrick -“Heath, if you have a Piskei Tshuvos (by my chaver tov Rav B.Z. Rabbinowitz), look up s. 271, s”k 6 at foot note 66.

There he brings the shitos both for and against the underlying rule which is the MG”A who holds that we are yoteh kiddush midoraysa in tefilah, since “saying” is all what is requird midoraysa. This is consistent with Reb Akiva Eiger and the Tshuvos HaRarshba (Vol 4, s. 295). The olom follows this MG”A (which is why women who normally may not daven ma’ariv during the week, daven ma’ariv Friday night – to equalize their chiyuv of kiddush with their husband).

The M.B. has issues with the MG”A and RA”E as I noted but that is besides the point.

Also and related, see Be’er Hetev s. 307 s”k 2 and Mishna Brura s”k 5 in name of Shal”ah the ma’alah of saying “shabbata tova” (gut shabbos) – v’ten l’chochom v’yechkam od.”

You seem to be a learned person, (unless s/o is just feeding you this stuff), so how come you didn’t understand my simple post???

“In any event, since we are dealing with a situation of issur dioraysa of chilul shabbos, this is very serious, and one must be machmir rather than laugh off the issue.

This isn’t merely a debate over ego matters or to shtoch someone or be holier than thou.

Be mekabel for your own sake, and if not, at the very least do not let your ego be machshil es harabim to accept your folly.”

Let me try again. I honestly don’t know why this RY or whomever it was, started this Chumra, but if it comes from the R’ A. Eiger it makes No Sense! R’ A. Eiger was wondering whether saying “Good Shabbos” on Shabbos is good enough for s/o to be Yotzay Kiddush with. And I already posted that the Biur Halacha finds this Shaila to be a Pelah so obviously he doesn’t agree with it – Not like you said above.

Now let’s talk about the R’ A. Eiger. Let’s say he holds for sure (in reality he had a Sofek) that you’re Yotzay Kiddush. This just means that saying “Good Shabbos” you have mentioned Shabbos acc. to the Mitzva of Zechira. This has nothing to with Kabbalah. You can’t possibly learn from this that saying Good Shabbos means you accepted Shabbos. So you have no proof that if s/o says Good Shabbos this means he is saying to Mekabel the Shabbos.

So stop with it’s Ossur to say Good Shabbos on Fri.

At the most it can be a Chumra – perhaps it lacks in Kovod Shabbos saying Good Shabbos when it’s Fri. But this is doubtful because you are wishing the other person now for later on.

Health – “I’m happy when I point out fallacies in certain posters.”

My friend and fellow Yid, that statement is troubling!

It is a form of ‘miskabed bi’klon chavero’ (raising oneself by denigrating someone else), which Chazal strictly forbid, and can cost olom haba c”v (see Rambam Hilchot Teshuvah 4:4).

The story is told of Rabbi Yisroel Salanter zt”l, who once saw two children playing. When one of the children pushed the other one into a pit and proclaimed himself to be the ‘King of the castle’, he predicted that that child would turn out to be a rosho.

‘But surely,’ someone asked, ‘that is the way children play?’

‘Maybe,’ replied R. Yisroel, ‘but he could just as well have climbed a rock and made the same proclamation. Why push the other one down? That bears the mark of a rosho.’

Surely there are “healthier” ways to make Health happy. If need be, climb a rock or a mountain and proclaim yourself king.

And by the way I presented straight facts, which is the reason you can’t present refutations. Certainly not when you contradict yourself continually on the same thread.

May you be zoche to ????? ????.

nishtdayngesheft -“And by the way I presented straight facts, which is the reason you can’t present refutations. Certainly not when you contradict yourself continually on the same thread.

May you be zoche to ????? ????.”

You might not like my explanations about why I said 1 RY – so what? How about focusing on the topic? Do you agree with some of the others that have turned some Chumra based on “I dunno what” and claimed it’s Halacha? Perhaps you (if you agree) should do some soul searching to figure out why you have gone so far off the beaten path? Keeping Chumros, even if you could call this a Chumra and not a Naarishkeit, is Not what Yiddishkeit is all about.

Health,

No, I do not agree. It was you who turned the whole topic off. Look back.

Someone asked if there was an inyan. Yes there is an inyan, meaning a reason. You turned this into making up chumros. The one who blew the whole topic completely out of the original topic was you. And you said that someone who was doing this because of a chashash of R Akiva Eiger was being machadesh ponim batorah. Pretty heavy words for someone as low as you to say about R. Akiva Eiger.

But you won’t admit that.

On another thread you talk about a chazakah that you have. The real chazakah it seems is that you are irrationally stubborn.

shmendrick -“The opposite of a kal she’bikalim is one who collects chumros. The more chumoros one has the more he is choraid lidvar Hashem. One who acts lifnim mishuras hadin is also treated that way min hashomayim.”

I’m not going to get into this Chumra bit with you, but one thing I can tell you is anybody who is Megalsh Ponim B’Torah Shelo K’halacha, like you did, is NOT a Choraid Lidvar Hashem!

nishtdayngesheft,

why the biting tone? Refutation is often heard better when it loses the attitude… frustrated much?

Lol, not that Health seems to care but wow. That’s a lot of edge.

“Pretty heavy words for someone as low as you to say about R. Akiva Eiger.”– That seems to be an unfair assumption you’re making about Health’s stature… sure we cannot claim the level of R’ Eiger, but the “as low as you” wasn’t very nice now, was it? Didn’t think so.

ketzy – There are posters that come across as very haughty. When you prove that they are full of hot air they resort to put-downs.

I wouldn’t have put so much time into this, but I know when posters quote resources and have the attitude that they are 100% right they will influence others.

In this case I have heard of this Chumra but to quote Achronim and say the Halacha is like these Achronim and the Achronim hold this Chumra is Halacha is the most dangerous thing. This is why the Torah said “Lo (Baal) Tosif”.

IMHO changing Halacha is like Kefira that’s why CHAZAL say “Megalah Ponim B’Torah Shelo K’halacha Ain Lo Chelek L’olam Haboh”.

It’s very sad when s/o openly lies to push his way after putting me down – from above:

“I don’t know your level of yedios, but with respect I ask, have you heard of the Biur Halacha (it is authored by the Mishna Brura and published in that sefer)? The M.B. in his Biur Halacha paskens like that R’ Akiva Eiger (although he adds some unrelated qualification).”

Did he really think I wouldn’t look it up? My only Limud Zecus for him is he heard this from s/o else but didn’t look it up himself.

Because if he knew what the BH wrote and changed it for his Nefarious purposes – this is a Mazid. Misquoting Halacha on purpose is Playing with Fire!

Health, you managed to look up the Be’ur Haytev. I am happy that I was gorem you to open a sefer and I take integral part in that zchus.

Another s’mach and rayah that one must not say “good shabbos” before the sun is going down on Friday and all your work is done.

There is a famous and beferushe song of Reb Abie Rotenberg shlitah.

The lyrics clearly point out when is the time to say “good shabbos”:

The sun is going down, it’s shining through the trees.

Another week’s gone by, become a memory.

So throw away your hammer, there’s nothing left to do.

Go on home and find the gift that’s waiting there for you.

(Refrain)

It’s time to say “good shabbos” ’cause all your work is done.

gonna spend a a day together with the holy one

Say a special blesing on a cup filled with wine

Man and his Creator, it’s a very special time.

I am sure you will try to shlog op this rayah too, but it is an accepted song b’chol tfutzos yisroel (I even heard one of illustrious R.Y. at BMG hmming the zemer).

Ketzele,

You will see in my comment that it was specifically written ?? ????? ??. However the ????? in his famous ???? talks about the midah of ???. So perhaps in that vein it may be applicable.

And what is unhealthy about you ketzeleh?

It is perfectly permissible to say “Good/Gut Shabbos” at any time of day or night on Friday and Shabbos.

HaLeiVi – “Where do we find a Kabbala Baal Karcho?”

Examples:

See shitos that saying Yom Hashishi in Friday night ma’ariv is Kiddush, even though there is no intention.

Also see shitos about answering a friend questioning what is tonight’s sefira that if answered directly you cannot count that night with a brocha.

Regarding kabbalah b’tous (mistaken kabbolas shabbos), see halochos if one is mekabel shabbos because it is getting dark (thinking it is shekiah) and when the clouds dispersed he realized there is still much time before shkiyah. There needs to be an element of charotah.

Each example is a discussion of its own.

In any event, the OP asked “usually frummer folks — say Ah Gutten “Erev” Shabbos. Is there an inyan to not say Gut Shabbos before it is Shabbos?”

Apparently, you are noheg like the frummer folks who don’t want to get into a shaylah of an inadvertent kabbolas shabbos followed by issur melacha.

The definition of “mekabel” is these examples is that the mitzvah was done. Using the term “mekabel” by sefira you were mekabel ba’al korcha the mitzvah of counting and by being yotzeh the counting you can no longer re-do the mitzva, it was done.

If saying “good shabbos” on its own is kiddush as R’ Akiva Eiger suggests and therefore you already made kiddush midoraysa, then there is a chalos shabbos.

Indeed the shitos that disagree with R’ Akiva Eiger take a position similar to yours, that the person intends to make kiddush (and I add by extension – be mekabel shabbos) later, al hakos as the rabbonon were mesaken (e.g. Minchas Chinuch and others).

By a d’oraysa, when there is conflicting shitos one should be machmir.

Follow carefully:

1. Can a person make kiddush on Friday after plag? Yes.

2. If one makes kiddush after plag is it shabbos for him? Yes.

3. Is there an issur melacha after making kiddush mi’beod yom? Yes.

4. Is saying “good shabbos” (once it is time to make kiddush) a kiddush? Yes.

5. Hence, saying “good shabbos” = kiddush, after plag, makes an issur melacha.

HaLeiVi -“But you are forgetting that there is a reason why saying Gut Shabbos can be considered Kiddush. It’s not magic.

When you say Gut Shabbos, on Shabbos, you are acknowleging the Kedushas Hayom. When you are actually not acknowledging anything, then it is not Kiddush.”

You’re wasting your time. He makes things up to coincide with his beliefs. I mentioned this already many times that a Kabbalah needs Daas and saying something like Good Shabbos when he still is planning on doing Melacha obviously he had no Daas. That it needs Daas is obvious to anybody who picked up a S’A on Hilchos Shabbos. He is also a liar. Even if you say the R’ A. Eiger held that it works against your will which you have no reason to even think this way, R’ A. Eiger is Mesufak whether this works on Kiddush. So let’s say that R’ A. Eiger held for sure, not a Sofek, even against one’s will saying Good Shabbos is Mekabel Shabbos -there still is no reason to refrain from saying Good Shabbos on Fri. because the Biur Halacha clearly doesn’t hold of this.

Maybe you can say the reason why some have this Chumra is because of Maaras Ayin. It’s 10 minutes to Shkia and you wish s/o a Good Shabbos and then you get in your car to drive to Shul.

Am Haaretzim might think you’re allowed to drive on Shabbos because he said Good Shabbos and then drove or doing any Melacha -(driving was just an example). Otherwise I can see no reason to have this “Chumra”!

On Friday at 4 o’clock my son called me. At the end of our conversation he said “Good Shabbos, Abba”. Having read this thread and being determined to be a good Jew, I told him he could not hang up the phone. By Motzei Shabbos his hand was very tired and his wife and children were annoyed.

Lesson: Judaism permits the use of the brain before reaching far-flung and quite impossible halachic conclusions.