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Charlie, we’re all in galut.
Need I point out that those who protest don’t consider this to be about defense, rather, about limud haTorah, which affects all of us.
“about limud haTorah, which affects all of us”
And the IDF doesn’t?
To the posters being moche my post:
Why?
Since when do I have to respect the Agudah’s Moetzes? None of the members are my rabbanim. Furthermore, even if one of them were my rav, who said I can’t say that his opinion will make me think less of him?
One of my previous rabbanim did/didn’t do something and while I still respect him and would ask him shailos if necessary, I did lose a drop of respect because of his in/action. It’s not 100% black and white. And that, BTW, is a big problem in the charedi world. They are all black and white, and so they see this as 100% black and white against the charedim.
Lastly, if the charedim are going to sit and learn all day and the dati are going to go to the army, what about a dati fellow who wants to sit and learn all day? Why do the charedim not allow him to sit all day?
the chareidim dont stop the dati guys from sitting and learning all day. by all means let them do so. were all for it.
and you must show respect for all talmidei chachomim. even if he isnt your rov. it is bizui talmidei chachomim to publicly pronounce your lack of respect for them.
What if I don’t think he’s a talmid chacham? Why do I need to show respect for someone I don’t respect at all?
not everyone on the street has the right to determine for himself who isnt a talmid chochom. ten of the accepted greatest talmidei chachomim of our generation were mentioned earlier and your response was of those ten you dont respect any except one “somewhat”.
1) accepted by whom? Avi Shafran?
2) Again, where does it say that I must have respect for everyone who some people on YWN call their leaders?
This is the B&W thinking again, that if I don’t have respect for them, I must hate them or something.
And the IDF doesn’t?
Then we in chu”l do have a say! You can’t have it both ways, Charlie.
mods: Sorry, I thought it got overlooked (it’s happened before).
no, it hasn’t. if it is pending approval it is pending approval for a reason.
ROB:
I think that the D”L who do nothing but denigrate and malign the Chareidim, while casting snide aspersions on the Gedolim, are “so over thw top that they are discriting themselves!!”
mdd:
You said that already, and I responded to it. Repeating it in bold does not make it any more convincing.
truthsharer:
Hamevazeh talmeidai chachomim, ein lahem chelek li’olam haba…
charlie:
“I don’t think those of us in galut should be telling Israelis how to run their defense forces.”
I don’t think those of us who are not religious should be telling Chareidim how much Torah they’re allowed to learn.
mdd:
“mainstream American Chareidim work for a living — something the Israeli Chareidim refuse to comprehend.”
What the Israeli Chareidim refuse to do is to go to the army, because they find it a spiritually dangerous environment. Due to that they barred by Israeli law from working.
Hamevazeh talmeidai chachomim, ein lahem chelek li’olam haba…
So when you are Mevaze “Rabbi” Saul Lieberman, you have no Chelek? It is nice to spout terms without knowing the consequences of your thoughts, in your haste to support “the Gedolim”.
What the Israeli Chareidim refuse to do is to go to the army, because they find it a spiritually dangerous environment.
I agree with this. The Charaidi education system is so poor that while the Rav Kook Chardal sector of Israel has no problem with the Army, the Charaidim would all go off the Derech if they joined. It says much about the shallowness of Charaidi emunah.
We actually see this in this sad story. The Charaidim (by that, I mean the askanim and those who run the society, not those like Rav Chaim who want nothing other than to sit and learn all day without distraction) “placed their trust” in politics instead of the Ribbono Shel Olam. This is the result.
Nobody is telling them how much to learn. All they are saying is that the money will stop.
KND, you did not answer anything of substance — you said it’s a zechus. Exactly, but you can’t push a zechus on somebody unwilling to get it.
You seem to be unaware of the situation in EY. Many Chareidim are extreme machmirim on Talmud Torah and would not go to the army even if it were glatt kosher. Their ta’ana it is all bitul Torah.
kanoi next door; so, you agree to the outlandish accusations that have been mande such as: this a “terrible gezeira”, “the destruction of torah”. “dragging yeshiba bochurim from the beth hamedrash”, “jaharog ve’al jaavor’ and more. All of therse quotes dealing with a fairly mild change to the law. You think this is appropriate talk and description of the situation?
You think this is appropriate talk and description of the situation?
ROB: The askanim are so scared that their funds will be cut off that they will say ANYTHING to rally others to their cause. Don’t blame Kanoi, he is just parroting what the “askonim” have said that the “Gedolim” would want him to say.
GaW: Sadly, you have pointed out the real reason for all this huffing and puffing: money. Enough said.
Charlie: “and the IDF doesn’t?”
Correct. Limud HaTorah affects everyone.
The IDF is, at best, a tool and, if it were Hashem’s will to replace it with something else, then He could also ensure that everyone would be just fine without it.
mdd -“KND, you did not answer anything of substance — you said it’s a zechus. Exactly, but you can’t push a zechus on somebody unwilling to get it.”
You and all the Zionists here are such hypocrites – it’s astounding!
Acc. to you it’s a Mitzva (Zecus) to go to the army. You can’t push a Zecus on somebody unwilling to get it. So why are they forcing the draft on the Charedim?
Also, e/o knows that learning Torah protects (or at least the Frum Jews should know) the Jews from harm – so how come the “religious” Zionists aren’t protesting this Gov. policies?
Don’t they want the extra protection for themselves and their families that live in Israel? Or are they really like the Conservatives & Reform and pick and choose what part of the Torah to keep? Just to be PC and go along with the current Gov., even though, if you believe in the Torah, this Israeli Gov. is committing Suicide.
even though, if you believe in the Torah, this Israeli Gov. is committing Suicide.
There are a number of reasons why this is incorrect. The main reason (IMHO) is that the current Bizayon HaTorah will end once every single Charaidi is no longer assumed to be a learner for life. This will increase Kavod HaTorah, Kavod Shomayim and (together with the increased Achdus) will be a net gain in the Zechusim for Klal Yisroel.
Being a (hated, despised, am haaretz) secular Jew who has an education, earns a living as a dedicated professional, and regularly interacts with all kinds of American non-Jews, I can tall you how real Americans are going to respond:
“So? That’s their problem.”
Americans have no comprehension of what the problem is, so I explain it to them this way: “It’s east vs. west. They want something for nothing while the rest of us work.”
They have no problems understanding the issue after that.
A counter-protest should be organized.
A counter-protest should be organized.
Eh, why bother. I don’t care enough what Gur does to welcome their Rebbe (as per the main site) to protest it.
It’s so chutzpadik for us in America to sit here and tell Israelis what to do and how to solve their problems. It’s the same thing Obama does, and he gets hammered by the frum community for sticking his nose in their business.
Have any of these gedolim or askanim fought to protect yerushalayim, the kosel, and every inch of kedushah that is eretz yisrael? Have they had best friends and siblings die fighting? Have they taken the best years of their lives and dedicated them to protecting other Jews from amalek? No. They don’t know from the tzaros of the Israel, they should stay out of it
All I can say is if the Moetzes Gedolei Hatorah support the Atzeres Tefillah we must go because if not we are going against the Gedolim which is big aveira. If you have an issue with this than go visit the Gedolim on the Moetzes & discuss this issue with them privately. Hashem gets very angry when people rip Gedolim.
Gedolim are great in every sense of the word, but ultimately, they are people too. Great people, yes, but people. From the podium at Agudah conventions over the years, many of these gedolim have spent their allotted speaking time not promoting ahavas yisroel, derech eretz, or doing mitzvos, but rather blasting other more modern ideologies, and yelling about the tumah of the Internet. Rav Svei called rabbi dr. Norman Lamm a ‘sonei Hashem’ during one such speech.
That is Torah I cannot agree with passively. These gedolim need to seriously think about how to best address the needs of klal yisroel. Insulting other ideologies, as well as degrading the soldiers that put their lives on the line for Israel to exist, is not gadlus and not kavod Torah.
Eli51: +1
It’s the gedolim were talking about who established this. Not baalei batim and not askanim. Gedolim themselves.
Joe: How many is that in the past week? You are going to run out of letter combinations!!
to crndy
The Gedolim who are behind this Atzeres Tefilla are big Tzadikkim & they know better than you what they are doing & anyone who rips their positions gets Hashem very angry. Once agai if you have a problem with them go meet them privately & discuss the issues you have with them.It is ossur to be mevazer tzaddikim in public.
You know, I really enjoy the intellectual stimulation of a rational, if heated, debate. It’s a shame that this thread has degraded into petty insults.
GAW:
“So when you are Mevaze “Rabbi” Saul Lieberman, you have no Chelek? It is nice to spout terms without knowing the consequences of your thoughts, in your haste to support “the Gedolim”.”
I did not make up the concept of hamevazeh talmeidai chachomim, ein lahem chelek li’olam haba; the Gemara (brought down li’halacha by the Rambam) did. The fact that this does not apply to Saul Lieberman hardly disproves the entire idea.
“The Charaidi education system is so poor that while the Rav Kook Chardal sector of Israel has no problem with the Army, the Charaidim would all go off the Derech if they joined.”
Actually, the Charaidim just won’t rely on the vast majority of the heterim that the D”L will.
mdd:
“KND, you did not answer anything of substance — you said it’s a zechus.”
No I didn’t. I said that the Lapid/Bennet plan is a geziras shmad because its stated goal is to decrease the amount Torah learning. The purpose of a gezira is what classifies it as shmad, not the means.
ROB:
“so, you agree to the outlandish accusations that have been mande such as: this a “terrible gezeira”, “the destruction of torah”. “dragging yeshiba bochurim from the beth hamedrash”, “jaharog ve’al jaavor’ and more.”
I never said that. (Although now that you bring it up: One and three, yes; two, somewhat; four, no.) All did was point out that it isn’t just Chareidim who are “so over thw top that they are discriting themselves!!”; a point which you keep proving.
GAW:
“The askanim are so scared that their funds will be cut off that they will say ANYTHING to rally others to their cause. Don’t blame Kanoi, he is just parroting what the “askonim” have said that the “Gedolim” would want him to say.”
ROB:
“Sadly, you have pointed out the real reason for all this huffing and puffing: money. Enough said.”
Actually, I’m just saying what I honestly believe to be the truth. Is it so hard to accept that somebody just honestly disagrees with you? Why do you have to assume the worst and sink to such disparagement?
Actually, I’m just saying what I honestly believe to be the truth.
I know. That is unfortunate 🙁
Actually, the Charaidim just won’t rely on the vast majority of the heterim that the D”L will.
To quote:
Actually, they’re just paskening what they honestly believe to be the truth. Is it so hard to accept that somebody just honestly disagrees with you? Why do you have to assume the worst and sink to such disparagement?
🙂
And your answer will be:
I know. That is unfortunate 🙁
I did not make up the concept of hamevazeh talmeidai chachomim, ein lahem chelek li’olam haba; the Gemara (brought down li’halacha by the Rambam) did. The fact that this does not apply to Saul Lieberman hardly disproves the entire idea.
Who says it doesn’t apply? You? The “Gedolim”? Which ones? Does it apply to Rabbi Avi Weiss? Rabbi Malkiel Kotler? Rabbi Norman Lamm? Rabbi Yitzchak Elchonon Spektor? Rabbi Abaye?
Who? And who decides?
Intersting that one side of the debate keeps bringing up money, and insisting that is what the other is all about, when the other doesn’t mention it at all.
All I can say is if the Moetzes Gedolei Hatorah support the Atzeres Tefillah we must go because if not we are going against the Gedolim which is big aveira. If you have an issue with this than go visit the Gedolim on the Moetzes & discuss this issue with them privately. Hashem gets very angry when people rip Gedolim.
The Gedolim also told you to get off the internet and you did not listen.
Intersting that one side of the debate keeps bringing up money, and insisting that is what the other is all about, when the other doesn’t mention it at all.
Being that the entire change between the new and old law is financial, I would have thought that money would figure more prominently in the discussion. In fact, in the Ami article about the new law, the Charaidim (and I forget who it was specifically) said he expects the US Yidden to make up the financial difference, so there will be no loss of Torah learning (and if that happens (for example, Lakewood merges with the Mir and moves to Yerushalayim), I would be thrilled. As opposed to others, I am not interested in the Charaidim joining the army.).
rebdoniel:
“A counter-protest should be organized.”
rationalfrummie:
“Have any of these gedolim or askanim fought to protect yerushalayim… they should stay out of it”
The fact that the Gedolim haven’t fought in any wars does not disqualify them from giving over Da’as Torah about the situation.
“These gedolim need to seriously think about how to best address the needs of klal yisroel. Insulting other ideologies, as well as degrading the soldiers that put their lives on the line for Israel to exist, is not gadlus and not kavod Torah.”
I’ll tell you what: when you’re the Gadol Hador, you can decide what issues deserve to be dealt with.
Oh, and I’d love to see just one example of a Gadol “degrading the soldiers that put their lives on the line for Israel to exist”.
zdad:
As far as I’m aware, none of the members of the American Moetzes have ever assered the Internet.
I am saddened that Agudas Yisroel is moving away from the normal policy of quiet askanus.
I don’t think Jews should be protesting in Galus, tying up streets, and posturing for the non-Jewish media; especially, especially, when the protest is against other Jews.
Oy, and during sefira no less. No good can come from this.
The Charedim joining the army is a red herring, the Army doesnt want them
The whole issue is about Working and government Handouts.
This tehillin is a prayer against working and contiuning to get government benefits
As far as I’m aware, none of the members of the American Moetzes have ever assered the Internet.
One of the Rabban listed previously is Rav Malkiel Kotler. He was one of the Rabbanim behind the internet asifa.
I dont know if he is behind this event or not since it was only posted here by an anonymous poster
GAW:
While there is indeed some grey area about where the issur of being mevazeh tamlidai chachamim is said, I think we all agree that it does not include being mevazeh Saul Lieberman and does include being mevazeh the entire Moetzes.
“I’m just saying what I honestly believe to be the truth.
I know. That is unfortunate :-(“
And here I was, hoping for if not an apology, at least the beginning of a more respectful tone in this debate. Silly me.
“Actually, the Charaidim just won’t rely on the vast majority of the heterim that the D”L will.
To quote:
Actually, they’re just paskening what they honestly believe to be the truth. Is it so hard to accept that somebody just honestly disagrees with you? Why do you have to assume the worst and sink to such disparagement?”
The difference is that I did not in any way disparage the D”L. I did not offer various snide possible motives for everything they do. I did not accuse them of only caring about their own wallets, having a “poor” education system as judged by the result, being shallow, or not having sufficient faith in Hashem.
You, however, did do all that to the either the Chareidim in general or me specifically.
You know better than the gedolim, benignuman, don’t you? Too bad you weren’t around to stop Reb Moshe and all those other Ultra-Orthodox Rabbis dressed in rabbinical garb when they went protesting in front of Roosevelt’s White House in Washington.
The proposed gezeira carries criminal penalties more than loss of financial benefits for draft dodging.
Who says it doesn’t apply?
Yeah, maybe it applies to Rabbi Eric Joffe, Rabbi Stephen Wise and Rabba Huruwitz too. Who is anyone to say otherwise?
So lets hear names of any bona fide rabbonim on the record opposing this Yom HaTefila. All we heard so far are anono internet pundits.
While there is indeed some grey area about where the issur of being mevazeh tamlidai chachamim is said, I think we all agree that it does not include being mevazeh Saul Lieberman and does include being mevazeh the entire Moetzes.
“We” obviously don’t.
What if I don’t think he’s a talmid chacham? Why do I need to show respect for someone I don’t respect at all?
The difference is that I did not in any way disparage the D”L.
Sure you did. That you don’t realize it makes it worse.
“We are so much better than you. You rely on hetairim and we never would, because only we are Torah True (TM) Jews”.
I’m just judging the facts as I see them. IIRC (and I could be wrong), Rav Chaim said something similar about the Charaidi system not being set up to withstand questions to Emunah or the outside world. Rav Dessler certainly said the system is set up as such. So at least I have a backup in Rav Dessler.
The people on this post who are ripping the Atzeres Tefillah are being Mevazeh the Moetzes Gedolei Hatorah who are real Tzadikkim. Rabbi Sol Lieberman is not on the Moetzes.
GAW, look in the “Chafets Chaim” for the definition of a Talmud Chocham.
The people on this post who are ripping the Atzeres Tefillah are being Mevazeh the Moetzes Gedolei Hatorah who are real Tzadikkim. Rabbi Sol Lieberman is not on the Moetzes.
A True Belieber. 🙂 Kol HaKavod, but not logic. Abaye was also not on the Moetzes.
GAW, look in the “Chafets Chaim” for the definition of a Talmud Chocham.
Circular logic. Who is “Raui L’Horos”?
Rabbi Avi Weiss? Rabbi Malkiel Kotler? Rabbi Norman Lamm? Rabbi Yitzchak Elchonon Spektor? Rabbi Abaye?
“We” obviously don’t.
In case people didn’t realize, I’m arguing for Truthsharer. I personally have a large amount of respect (not as if they need my approval) for the Noviminsker and other members of the Agudah.
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