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As long as we are on the same page 🙂
Now we’re on a different page 🙂
Aries,
I think the issue should have been brought to your son’s attention, but not directly by the “girl”.
A general mechilah does not carry the same weight, IMO, as a specific one.
On the other hand, to ease the discomfort on your son’s part (and for tznius reasons) he should be asked for mechilah by a third party.
This happened to me once; I was the third party. The “boy” didn’t even remember being offended, but he was moichel b’lev shalem just in case.
Just set expectations about how long you believe it will take to get back to someone.
I once said “yes” less than 5 minutes after a girl was mentioned to me. The person setting it up thought it odd. I thought it was very odd that they thought it was odd (no, my last name is not Norton, or Kramden), and had to justify myself. My justification was simply to ask if the following were true. She a baalas middos? Does she have a personality a bit more engaging than a giraffe? Does she walk upright? She doesnt come from a family of axe murderers? All yes? Excellent, she sounds like a wonderful girl, why should I say no? That was 20 years ago when one did not hire the Pinkertons to investigate every shidduch, I can only imagine how odd it would be today. People should stop asking so many questions.
It is so sad to see how times have changed. Once upon a time the boys were the ones going after the girls..B’derech Hatevah that’s how it usually is…The whole system is warped! and that’s why there’s a Shidduch crisis. The boys have created for themselves an elitist attitude and it’s not a healthy attitude.
I have a friend who claimed she had the TOP,TOP,TOP boy and any girl that was “redt” to her son from out of town…the girl had to fly in to date her son, bec. Chas V’sholom her son should take off time from learning..bittul Torah… and she continued saying if you have a top boy in Lakewood then the girl does the traveling and of course there was a whole speech about how her son is so TOP that he needs to be fully supported by his father-in-law for his Kollel learning for the next few years.
Hello people!?! We need a complete overhaul on how the Shidduch system is handled. There are so many wonderful erliche girls who are being left out of the loop bec. the criteria the boys expect (and their mothers as well) is nonsensical. The rules don’t make sense and the next generation of boys are being raised with no solid work ethic and a “me, me, me” attitude.
if the boy is learning, i definitely agree the girl should be going to his city to date, as to minimize his off-time from learning.
popcorn
Couldnt agree more.
The one thing I would add:
“B’derech Hatevah that’s how it usually is…”
This is how it is SUPPOSED to be!
Not only is there a generation of men w no work ethic, but a generation of men who arent WILLING to work for ANYTHING, a difficult marriage is included, if it isnt easy and handed to them, it isnt worth it.
The whole system is warped! and that’s why there’s a Shidduch crisis. The boys have created for themselves an elitist attitude and it’s not a healthy attitude.
You’ve got it backwards. There’s a shidduch crises because there are more girls looking to get married than boys looking to get married. And yes, some boys therefore develop an elitist attitude; it means they don’t have proper midos to begin with. Some girls, despite the situation, still have an elitist attitude. Those girls also don’t have proper midos.
popcorn and sac:
gut gezukt!
D”Y I actually DO advocate for more than one “yes” (having married my wonderful husband because I said yes to a date while on my way to preparing for another date, something which most girls of my generation did), because it is unreasonable to expect a girl OR a guy (but more often it is the girl) to wait and wait for a response when another shidduch is potentially available, and could be lost. It happened exactly that way to my friend’s son. He missed out on a shidduch that on paper sounded PERFECT for him, for his family, and so on, because the girl was being redt another possible shidduch (it had not gone beyond a preliminary inquiry), so she would not allow her info to be given out to him. In the meantime, he was redt to someone else, (it didn’t end up working out), and the first girl became available, but now HE was “busy.” By the time he had seen the present girl twice, he realized it was not for him and he wanted very much to meet the first girl, but once again, by that time she was waiting on a response from a new boy. They never did meet each other, and I make no apologies for feeling that this is a real shame.
The “rules” today benefit no one. We have a greater shidduch crisis than was ever seen in recent history, and my bottom line says, whatever it takes to get our single people married, should be considered, even if it means “double dipping” or (horrors!) going to Single events that are NOT shiurim. That is my opinion, and whoever wishes to, may disagree (my own kids disagree, but then again, they have also been brainwashed about the rules).
They never did meet each other, and I make no apologies for feeling that this is a real shame.
What happened, did that girl end up in an unhappy marriage?
whatever it takes to get our single people married, should be considered, even if it means “double dipping”
Do you mean agreeing to two shidduchim at the same time, or seeing two people at the same time?
I think the rules seem to apply less as singles get older.
I am not taking a strong stance on this issue at all, I merely stated that I’m “uncomfortable” because of Sacrilige’s reason, which, as I understood it, is that it’s hurtful to hear that a boy agreed to go out, and then less than a week later if she also agrees, he’s suddenly busy. On the other hand, as popa said, and you, I think, agree, why should he have to put his efforts to get married on hold for a week.
I’m somewhere in the middle here; I think you and Sacrilege are on opposite sides.
There is a reason why there is an expression: “You snooze; you lose (or the early bird catches the worm).” If you waste time and don’t act in a proactive manner, you may lose out because someone else got there first. I absolutely think two shidduchim can and should be redt and agreed to at the same time, with the first person to respond being the first date. I personally have no problem with someone going out with one guy on Saturday night and a different guy on Sunday. Telling Sunday guy that you are not available until next week, might result in his not being available either. And if Mr. Saturday Night turns out to be a
no-go, why lose out on someone who might BE the ONE, just because some rules in the present (but not in the past)dictate that it is “not done.”
BTW, I have no idea what happened to the girl in that story. I am acquainted with the boy’s family. He is married now, B”H seems to be happy. Obviously it was bashert for him to marry the girl he married.
I can see Sacrilege’s point, but I think that my position, if followed, would result in people taking far less time to drag their feet in making a dating decision. The reason the rules relax a lot as singles get much older, is that they realize how much time they wasted following stupid rules (not talking about halacha here).
BTW, I also sincerely believe that once someone has gone out with someone three times, they should NOT be considering anyone else until the budding relationship has come to some conclusion. One date does not make a relationship, but seeing someone more than a couple of times means there is SOMETHING there, and the potential should be respected and allowed to develop unhindered by other shidduchim.
i know a guy is looking into me, cause my friend called to let me know she was called as a ref, after she told me the questions the woman asked (who claimed to not be related to the boy), my friend told me she strongly disaproves of this guy and i decided there is absolutely no way i would ever agree to dating him….why should guys be the ones to give the answer first, when i know the answer is a def no no no way!!!
BTW, I also sincerely believe that once someone has gone out with someone three times, they should NOT be considering anyone else until the budding relationship has come to some conclusion. One date does not make a relationship, but seeing someone more than a couple of times means there is SOMETHING there, and the potential should be respected and allowed to develop unhindered by other shidduchim.
What happens if they both seem like a good shidduch?
He is married now, B”H seems to be happy. Obviously it was bashert for him to marry the girl he married.
Then why do you think it’s a real shame that they never met?
“why should guys be the ones to give the answer first,”
Excellent question. My wife and I, DO go to the girl first many times, although we have found that the guy STILL takes his sweet time “looking into it”. One time a guy was taking too much time to look into things so we simply mentioned someone else to the girl, she said yes, the guy said yes within 48 hours and she had a date all set up, when look who woke up, the first guy, that he was interested. We told him, “she is busy now, she put you on her list”, it felt good to say that to a guy.
I don’t believe in double dipping, I think this only confuses things. If you date two boys or two girls at the same time, you wind up comparing one to the other and don’t give either one the full attention and chance they deserve ….”her eyes are prettier, he is taller, she dresses nicer, he has dimples, she is thinner, he is funnier, her hair is longer…..” you wind up making stupid comparisons that really have nothing to do with tachlis.
CS, as far as your friend telling you HER opinion based on the phone call, that was wrong, wrong, wrong! People do ask stupid questions but the guy in question might be a great guy even if his mother asks stupid questions. Your friend’s tainted opinion due to the phone call is foolish and should not be a reason not to go out with a guy that might be a real good match for you. Don’t make up your mind according to your friend’s opinion. IF the shidduch is redt to you, find out about the guy and forget about your friend’s opinion. The phone call and your friend’s reaction might be something the two of you can laugh about in the future, you never know.
I don’t believe in double dipping, I think this only confuses things. If you date two boys or two girls at the same time, you wind up comparing one to the other and don’t give either one the full attention and chance they deserve ….”her eyes are prettier, he is taller, she dresses nicer, he has dimples, she is thinner, he is funnier, her hair is longer…..” you wind up making stupid comparisons that really have nothing to do with tachlis.
I agree, and would add that one can also forget which one said what, and not have an accurate picture (and it could also lead to an embarrassing situation).
I would add the caveat that sometimes due to circumstances, there might be an exception, e.g. someone is in from out of town.
CS, as far as your friend telling you HER opinion based on the phone call, that was wrong, wrong, wrong! People do ask stupid questions but the guy in question might be a great guy even if his mother asks stupid questions. Your friend’s tainted opinion due to the phone call is foolish and should not be a reason not to go out with a guy that might be a real good match for you. Don’t make up your mind according to your friend’s opinion. IF the shidduch is redt to you, find out about the guy and forget about your friend’s opinion. The phone call and your friend’s reaction might be something the two of you can laugh about in the future, you never know.
Agreed, unless it’s clear that the stupid questions are from the fellow himself (and it still might not be anything more than a small flaw in an otherwise solid character).
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