Afikomen Tnai

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  • March 25, 2013 1:01 pm at 1:01 pm #608774
    Chortkov
    Participant

    What is the heter to rely on the Avnei Nezers tnai for eating Afikoman after chatzos?

    The Avnei Nezer learns that you should eat a kzayis before chatzos, and make a tnai that you are only being yotzei according to the shita that you have to eat before chatzos. Then, after chatzos you can eat the rest of your meal, because it is not the zman, and have your second afikoman to be yotzei according the shitta.

    a) according to everybody ?????? one has to eat by ????, but we pasken ????????? that one can eat until ????, and therefore one would not be able to eat because of ??? ??????? ??? ??? ??????? until ????, even with the ????, because you will want to be ???? according to everybody before ?????

    b) What happened to the ???? ?????? ?? which says clearly ?? ???? ????? ??????? ???? ?????? One can definitely not be ???? afikoman with a ?????! (Might have a ????? to that one, but not for now)

    March 25, 2013 2:11 pm at 2:11 pm #942207
    Chacham
    Participant

    rav elyashiv in hearos on brachos 9b ask many more kashyos on it

    March 25, 2013 2:40 pm at 2:40 pm #942208
    YW fan
    Participant

    To answer your first question you must realize that few Rishonim agree to this Psak that even according to R’ Akiva, Miderabanan one must eat by Chaztos. Although this was definitely by the Korban Pesach(Rambam 8-16 and Zevachim 56), since the Afikomen is only a Zecher therefore we may be lenient. This is Meduyak in many Rishonim (Rosh,Tosphos and the Ran) See Igros Moshe(Ohr Hachaim Chelek 5 Siman 38 Sief Katan 8)

    Regarding your second question that Tnai is that something should HAPPEN and then this chalos will be chal but here the Tenai is if the HALACHA is this way then my KAVANA is to be Yotzay now. Similarly by Krias Shema some Tenaim are able to be made.

    Chag Kasher Vesameach!

    March 25, 2013 2:51 pm at 2:51 pm #942209
    🐵 ⌨ Gamanit
    Participant

    We do afikomen al tnai if we’re running late, and we’re still up to shulchan orach a few minutes before chatzos… I think it’s a brilliant solution to getting afikomen on time.

    March 27, 2013 8:52 pm at 8:52 pm #942210
    Chortkov
    Participant

    YW Fan – I don’t understand how you answered the question. ?? ???? ????? ??????? ???? ????? means that you cannot make a ???? in the performance of this ????. The ???? uses this for ????? – why can you just not say “I am making a ???? in the ?????”?

    March 28, 2013 6:12 am at 6:12 am #942211
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    It’s not really a t’nai.

    March 28, 2013 8:46 am at 8:46 am #942212
    old man
    Participant

    No one needs a heter to rely on the great Sochotchover Rov.

    March 28, 2013 5:18 pm at 5:18 pm #942213
    Chortkov
    Participant

    DaasYochid – I also wanted to suggest that, but what would be your reason for that? Why don’t you need a tnai? (Why is it different to anything where you say if you do not have ????? ????? then ???? ???? ????? ???, and we don’t say “It is not really a tnai”?)

    Old man – You are 100% right – No one needs a heter to rely on the great Sochotchover Rov. However, what is ??? in the heter?

    March 28, 2013 10:16 pm at 10:16 pm #942214
    Rav Tuv
    Participant

    Regarding your second question that Tnai is that something should HAPPEN and then this chalos will be chal but here the Tenai is if the HALACHA is this way then my KAVANA is to be Yotzay now.

    Do not understand why you have challos by the seder. We only have matza.

    March 29, 2013 6:23 am at 6:23 am #942215
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    It is a fact that your Matzoh being either Achilas Matza or Afikoman is completely up to you.

    March 29, 2013 10:56 am at 10:56 am #942216
    Chortkov
    Participant

    musser zoger – MASKIM!

    HaLeivi – By ??????? one can say the same thing, that the fact that you are ???? the ??? is TOTALLY up to you, yet if you muck up your ???? then ???? ???? ????? ???.

    What we have to clarify is: Based on your point, why do you NEED the ????? of ????? If the ???? would not make this ???? of ??? ?? ???? ?????, why can I not get up and say “I only have ???? if…”?

    ??? in ?????? ?? says that if a ???? is not the same as ???? ???? ?? ???? ?????, one would have a problem of ?? ??? ????? ????? ????. I think pshat is based on the ??? ??”? ??? ?? where he says that ???? ????? ?????? – one makes a ???? whether there will be a ???? ???? or ?????, and then creates a new thing called a ???? which the ???? was ???? can break your ????. However, without this, the ???? will not work, and therefore the ???? requires that the ???? should be ????? to ??? ?? ???? ?????.

    March 29, 2013 1:37 pm at 1:37 pm #942217
    Chortkov
    Participant

    In order to answer the question of how ???? works by ???????, we need to answer something else:

    Why does one need the ????? of ????? In my previous post, I wrote that it is to counter the complete ???? that one makes, which therefore needs a ????? to break it.

    However, why does one need to make a full ????, and then have to come on to a ???? – just make the ???? only “if…” at the beginning?

    The achronim explain (there are two ways to explain this; this is only one – the other way won’t help us) that to create a ????, one needs ????? ???. One needs to be final about the decision (as a ??? of the ???? one needs). If he is ????? whether the ???? will be ?????? or not, he cannot have ????? ???.

    It could be this only applies to something that needs ????? ???. A ???? needs ????, but not ????? ???. So it could be that you don’t need ????? ?????, but you can just do the ???? and only give your ???? “If…”

    March 31, 2013 2:39 pm at 2:39 pm #942218
    Chortkov
    Participant

    A possible suggestion to the question of ?? ????? ????? ??????? ???? ????? may lie in the explanation to the reason why there is no ?????? by ????? – why is it different to anything where we say ???? ?? ??? ??????

    The ??? ??? asks this in ??????? ?? ??. The ????”? (I think ?? ???) explains that essentially there is ?????? even by a ????. But ?????? can only help to tell you that the ???? of the ???? can be attributed to the ????, but the ????s body is not the ????s body.

    Therefore, if the ???? puts on ??????, the ???? of ?????? laid on the ????s hand can be attributed to the ????, so it is as if the ???? placed ?????? on the ???? — which won’t help him be ????? his ????.

    ?????? WOULD work, if for example, the ???? puts the ?????? on the ????s hand (for example if the ???? is disabled and cannot do it himself), then it will be ?????? to the ???? that ?????? was put on HIS hand, and he would be ????? his ????.

    So – ????? – Afikoman is ???? ???????; just ?????? doesn’t help to be ????? the ????.

    April 3, 2013 3:25 am at 3:25 am #942219
    147
    Participant

    5 Kezeisim of Matzo is more than sufficient for 1 evening. 7 Kezeisim would simply be too much Matzo to handle.

    Just learn how to be in control of your time, and plan the Seder schedule in a timely manner, so you simply do get up to Afikomon prior to Chatzos.

    This may mean preparing for 2nd Seder way up front before Pesach, so can begin even 2nd Seder very shortly after nitefall. Careful planning goes an extremely long way.

    April 3, 2013 3:56 am at 3:56 am #942220
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    147, that’s not an option for someone joining someone else’s seder.

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