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i saw an article on another news site which stated that utj and shas will only join if he cancels the cuts to yeshivos, so if thats the case what happens with adopt a kollel, which was started because they were losing government funding
Government doesn’t provide anywhere close to enough Kollel funding, even when they do provide governmental funds.
Joseph: Neither does Adopt-A-Kollel. I presume there are multiple different arrangements, however from what I have heard, the adopting shul/community/ business does not cover even a third of the adopted kollel’s payroll.
Coffee: Aside for the cuts for kollel funding there were additional cuts such as stipends for large families that were drastically slashed. Such cuts were understandably catastrophic for many kollel families. Kollels had a greater pressure to pay more, and on time.
Parenthetically I may add, “they” didn’t start anything. One ‘Zakai’ was privileged to devise and carry out this unbelievable ‘zikui harabim’. May we all be zocheh to such awesome ‘zechuyos’ of our own. Amen.
If you would only know how bad things are over there, you would realize that the yungeleit still need our help very badly. Talk of bringing back part of what was lost is not nearly enough to combat the aniyus they are living with.
Kol – Hate to do this, but Chazal say that Aniyus is a necessary quality for Kinyan HaTorah (I don’t think anyone is at the point where they are beyond eating only bread, salt & water, and sleeping on the floor of the Bais Medrash). If the end goal is to learn as much as possible, you (and other Charaidim) should embrace Aniyus.
Gavra, that’s ridiculous, and you know it.
DaasYochid – Mind explaining why to the Olam? I agree it is (maybe) ridiculous, but explaining why should bring out an extremely good point regarding Charaidi society that would be more palatable to others if you say it (over me). The devil is in the details.
The main reason it’s ridiculous is because you’re saying it on others’ cheshbon.
The other reason it’s ridiculous is because regardless of misplaced idealism, the reality is that someone can learn better without financial strain. No one without an agenda would fail to realize this, and no matter how well I explain (and there are certainly many far more eloquent than I), I won’t convince someone who doesn’t want to be convinced.
The main reason it’s ridiculous is because you’re saying it on others’ cheshbon.
Once they ask me for money (which they did), it becomes my Cheshbon.
The other reason it’s ridiculous is because regardless of misplaced idealism, the reality is that someone can learn better without financial strain. No one without an agenda would fail to realize this, and no matter how well I explain (and there are certainly many far more eloquent than I), I won’t convince someone who doesn’t want to be convinced.
Are you saying that Chazal (whom I was quoting) are “misplaced idealists” and “have an agenda”? You’re even more of a Kofer than I am 🙂
No, it’s still not your cheshbon to tell someone else to live b’dachkus (or even to think that way). That’s called achzarius. Yes, someone should be willing to live in poverty to be able to learn, but Chazal were obviously not saying this as an excuse to withhold tzedakah from poor talmidei chachomim; aderaba, as I’ve mentioned and sourced (Ahavas Chessed from the Chofetz Chaim), it is the highest use of tzedakah money.
As an aside, R’ Chaim Ozer is quoted (Artscroll’s “Reb Chaim Ozer”, pg. 111) as (humorously) explaining the gemara in Nedarim (.?”?) which says ????? ???? ????? ???? ??? ???? that it’s because they don’t have seforim.
So maybe you should go around stealing everyone’s seforim. 🙂
“Once they ask me for money (which they did), it becomes my Cheshbon.”
gavra: Why is it your cheshbon if they asked for money, unless you actually gave money? Did you donate a considerable sum to kollel? If there was, would not the cheshbon you have only be limited with that particular kollel?
UTJ and Shas are not as strong as you think, if their demands are not met, Yesh Atid is waiting in the wings. an d they will be out of the government again which they cant stand
DaasYochid 🙂 Very good. There certainly is a difference between asking for my (or others’)money and taking someone else’s item, and for you to compare the two is certainly a “false equivalence”.
I’m not saying they should live B’Dachkus, I’m rather asking whether living B’Dachkus furthers their stated goal of maximization of Limud HaTorah or not. Does it? Chazal seems to say that it does.
nolongersingle – I now have to Cheshbon if I should give or not. I have stated an argument why perhaps I should not give to Adopt-A-Kollel. I certainly have the right to justify why I (and others) should give money elsewhere where it does affect me, such as our local Mosdos.
zahavasdad – I believe you are incorrect. Netanyahu will not take back Lapid unless the Charaidim are unrealistic. The Charaidim have too much to lose by not being in the government so they will be “bought” easy for less than they would if they could risk being out.
gavra_at_work,
Hate to do this, but Chazal say that Aniyus is a necessary quality for Kinyan HaTorah (I don’t think anyone is at the point where they are beyond eating only bread, salt & water, and sleeping on the floor of the Bais Medrash).
Two points:
1. Do you think poverty can or should be defined in this way for a non-agrarian society? Are you asserting that there is no food or housing insecurity among Chareidim in Eretz Yisroel?
2. You are quick to mention what the gemara says about the sacrifices that should be made for Torah, but what does the gemara say about supporting limud Torah? Does the concept of tzedaka end once you think that everyone has some bread, salt, and water and there are enough batei midrash to provide sufficient floor space for all to sleep?
If the end goal is to learn as much as possible, you (and other Charaidim) should embrace Aniyus.
While this may be proper for someone to hold this for himself, I do not think it is proper to say it to someone else.
1. Do you think poverty can or should be defined in this way for a non-agrarian society? Are you asserting that there is no food or housing insecurity among Chareidim in Eretz Yisroel?
Do you think that the Torah should be updated for a non-agrarian society. Hm….. No. If I did, I would (rightfully) be called a Reform Jew.
While this may be proper for someone to hold this for himself, I do not think it is proper to say it to someone else.
That is the same “your Cheshbon” point DY brought. Asked and answered.
Since you are missing the point, (and DY is a Kofer anyway, so no-one will listen to him :), I’ll explain. Chazal was dealing with the individual, that for an individual to learn to his maximum potential, poverty is a requirement, as all of your Amailus should be in Torah.
What we are dealing with in Israel is not the Torah learning of individuals, but having a society that is Ruba D’Ruba learners. Of course, in such a society, only very few individuals (probably even above those who The Chofetz Chaim describes as “Muflag”) will be on the level that Chazal describe is necessary to maximize Torah learning . The rest, while they do learn, are not capable of the maximization that Chazal suggests. Therefore, in order for them to remain in such a society, they need to have more. Otherwise, they could give it up and leave the society.
As DY appropriately pointed out, one of the biggest Tzedakos is giving to those Muflagim B’Torah (who are not on the level of Pas B’Melach and therefore need), and that is who should be supported.
Finally, this assumes that the Charaidi goal is to maximize Limud HaTorah. If one argues (and there is room) that the goal is to perpetuate Charaidism, then certainly living off of others would maximize that goal over living in poverty.
If you have a question about how to prioritize your tzedaka money, speak to your Rav.
I admit I didnt go through every single word, but I dont believe it says anywhere from siman resh mem zayin through resh nun ches anything about telling someone who asks for tzedaka that he is better off “bedachkus” since it is good for his growth in torah.
Again, this may be the am haaretz in me coming to the fore, but when the roman asked rabbi akiva why hashem created poor people, why didnt rabbi akiva answer, to facilitate their growth in torah?
aAdopt a kollel is a wonderful idea and we should definitely keep it, you cant lose by giving tzedaka as it says ??? by the Passuk (meaning you will get paid back).
However it is worth to point out that your city friends and family come first. See Ahabas Chesed the 6th perek 2nd pgh that even if someone else is in a worse situation you should first help your family or city.
Also see the Chofetz Chaim sefer called ???? ??? ??? ?? where he says that if you don’t give Tzedaka properly and accordingly, their is a fair chance you wont get rewarded the way you should be.
They should live in poverty, but must their family also?
APY: After you read my post above yours, I think your point is moot.
Shulchan HaShalem: The Shulchan Aruch discusses hilchos Kedimah. I also had a long discussion with DY about it here:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/kollel-life-reality/page/5
UTJ and Shas will only join the government if the government agrees to cancel the plan to conscript the yeshiva students, forcing them to either go the prison for at least several years or to the army for several years. They won’t have the ability to get high levels of funding restored. Remember there are plenty of anti-religious parties ready to take the place of the hareidi parties, so they really don’t have much bargaining power. The attraction of the hareidi parties to Netanyahu is that they are concerned with what to him is a tangental issue (conscription), and will leave the important stuff (economics and national security) to others.
While the yeshiovos allied with the Eidis Hareidis never relied on government funding, the other non-zionist yeshivos have seen why relying on secular Jews for money is a bad thing.
Why is his point moot?
His point is in fact the main point to counteract your argument. Nowhere does it say that it’s up to us decide that someone should be poor for his benefit. That’s only up to the Ribono Shel Olam.
A person receives great schar if he’s insulted without responding (?????? ????? ??????). Should I therefore go around insulting people to give them the opportunity? (I know you could make a technical differentiation between shev v’al ta’aseh and kum va’aseh, but the hashkafah is correct). Penina was wrong, and punished, even though she was l’shem shomayim. And, if you think anyone withholds from Adopt a Kollel l’shem shomayim, I’ll throw in the Verrazano at half price.
DaasYochid – It is not up to us, Chazal said it is true (which you still don’t believe, YOU KOFER!!! :). Don’t blame me. As I explained, that is not relevant to whether we should support Talmidei Chachomim Muflagim who don’t consider themselves on that level, which we certainly should (which is why it is a moot point).
Of course I believe it, the same way I believe ????? ????? ????? ??????, ?????? ?????? ???? ?????? ?????, yet we try to raise our kids to do mitzvos, not aveiros. (How many more examples do I need)?
Chazal were not giving license to withhold tzedakah to increase Torah.
DaasYochid – and I’m not saying one should or Chazal did (or did you not read my posts?)
If you didn’t think Chazal were talking to donors you never should have quoted them.
I read your posts, possibly misunderstood them (certainly if there were hidden discworld references).
DY: I wanted to get to the point that I ended up having to make myself regarding the societal issue.
And it is DISCWORLD
That’s because I don’t think I agree with it (and I edited, but I think I like my misspelling better).
I heard that when R’ Meir Shapiro went around raising money for what was essentially the first modern yeshiva (with all of the bochurim’s needs in regards to sleeping, eating, etc. being taken care of) people asked/challenged him with the above Mishna that seems to indicate that poverty is beneficial to Torah study. Supposedly he responded that the Mishna is only trying to show us how far one must be willing to go to study Torah; but is it doesn’t have to get that point, it shouldn’t.
Also I seem to remember a Gemora that says that Rebbi learnt with bars of gold on his table (supported by Antinenus) so he felt reassured and could learn better.
gavra_at_work,
Do you think that the Torah should be updated for a non-agrarian society. Hm….. No. If I did, I would (rightfully) be called a Reform Jew.
Your response is a red herring; you didn’t answer my question.
And no, the Torah does not need to be updated so that it deals with a non-agrarian society. Your assertion that my question can only be answered with Torah reform indicates that perhaps you believe Hashem cannot predict the future or write the Torah in such a way that it can deal with multiple societies. You kofer. 🙂
That is the same “your Cheshbon” point DY brought. Asked and answered.
And countered successfully by DaasYochid. If someone asks you for money, it gives you the right to tell him yes or no. It perhaps gives you the right to investigate his situation to inform your subsequent yes or no. It does not give you the right to throw Chazals at him in his pain and dictate to him what you think is best for his learning.
Since you are missing the point, (and DY is a Kofer anyway, so no-one will listen to him :), I’ll explain.
I understand your point, but if all you are trying to do is state that since Chazal say aniyus is good for Torah learning, a society that values Torah learning above all else should ergo embrace aniyus, I’ll respond that it is a rather strange point to make in a thread about tzedaka, in response to a poster noting the dire living conditions for Chareidim in E”Y.
If I came across a man about to hand $50 to a beggar, and pointed out to him that each and every dollar given to tzedaka is holy, and that even a dollar given is a great mitzvah, what I said was absolutely true, but was I doing a good thing or a bad thing in context?
Your point was not made in a vacuum, and it is valid for us to make inferences and ask questions based on juxtaposition.
Avram in MD – Missed by a mile.
Go back, read it, and try again if you wish.
gavra_at_work,
There is nothing wrong with my reading comprehension skills. If you feel that I have missed your point by a mile, then it’s highly likely that your point can be more articulately stated.
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