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As we approach TU B’av some thoughts about shidduchim:
Beyond the fact that there are now thousands of unmarried bnos Yisroel some of whom are passing childbearing age, there are also several serious secondary casualties of this crisis.
1) Believe it or not but the shidduch crisis is sadly fueling an increase in geirushin. Not long ago frum marriage partners put their best efforts into making a marriage work even they weren’t initially the most ideal match. In today’s disposable generation, people have less motivation to put in the work to stabilize & create marital harmony. Still, divorce came with a stigma & remarrying with someone of another failed marriage can be difficult. Now, the shidduch crisis is leading many unmarried girls to consider marrying a divorced boy. This is lowering the motivation for young married men to make their marriages work, thinking they’ll find an unmarried girl to start over.
2) The financial leverage is becoming more unfair as parents of girls are desperate to marry off their children.3) There isn’t an adequate support system for the ruchnius & emotional needs of girls out of school for many years. We can’t just let them exist in the shadows of frum life.
Are you sure that there is a critical mass of divorced men marrying never married women?
In my limited social circle. I am aware of 2 divorced men (both approaching 50) with 5 and 4 children respectively who remarried recently. One to a never married 39 year old and one to a 46 year old who was married at 21 and divorced 4 months later. I am also aware of a single 44 year woman old who is pretty close to getting engaged to a divorced 49 year old with several children. Critical mass? Hardly. Critical mass in my limited social circle, perhaps.
In that case perhaps a fourth category the OP can add as an “additional societal casualty of the shidduch crisis” is divorced women. Since the divorced men are often marrying the never-married older single women, this leaves many divorced women with no one to marry.
Though, given that severe result, perhaps it will motivate more married women who are considering divorce to reconsider and instead to choose to preserve their existing marriage — since a divorce can often mean growing old and lonely with no one else to marry.
If so, this fourth category could somewhat alleviate the first category in the OP since it will result in less divorces in the first place.
If there are too many women we can make a new rule against EMS treating the opposite gender.
There are more people than in the past.
Polygamy.
One of societal Casualties Of The Shidduch Crisis is reduced population growth .
Orthodox Jewish population growth is very robust.
The OP writes:
“Not long ago frum marriage partners put their best efforts into making a marriage work even they weren’t initially the most ideal match. In today’s disposable generation, people have less motivation to put in the work to stabilize & create marital harmony. Still, divorce came with a stigma & remarrying with someone of another failed marriage can be difficult. ”
Now, if the OP is speaking from personal experience, I can’t argue. But if the OP is making assumptions, He’s clearly not following the opinion expressed by Hillel Hazokein in pirkei avos (2:4).
There have been immature people in every generation. There have been those for whom commitment is meaningless in every generation. There have been people who lack seichel in every generation. Many of these brought these character weaknesses into their marriages, and what is worse is that they failed to take personal responsibility.
And there have been people of faith, commitment, and maturity who worked at their marriage and failed to sustain it – in every generation. Boruch hashem that they encounter others with more understanding and discernment than the OP who help them learn from their challenges and build a successful life with a new partner, of whatever age and life experience. The zivug and the happiness they build is what is important in strengthening their commitment to HKBH and to strengthening their community. Not some speculative calculus about their motivations.
“People have less motivation”?
Spoken like someone who is well intentioned, but better at speculation than certainty.
I’d venture to say that the tuition crisis is having a greater impact on population growth.
Joseph: robust has many levels. We are as a community, imho, experiencing less growth than the previous generation. Our growth is very impressive, but let’s not kid ourselves about this.
Mammele:
In the very Chasidish communities, are today’s couples having, on average, notably less children than their parents?
1. I think that it is true that most older girls (or at least a significant number) who get married do marry guys who were married before (either divorced or widowed). I haven’t done statistics on it, but I am very familiar with a significant portion of that population, so (unlike APY), I am fairly confident about this.
2. It doesn’t necessarily follow that most divorced men end up marrying (and staying married to) single girls. Many of them may not get remarried at all, and a lot of them end up twice-divorced. Also, there may be more divorced men than single girls.
3. In any case, I highly doubt that that is a significant factor in the divorce rate. For one thing, I am pretty sure that most divorces are initiated by women, in which case the shidduch crisis should be a deterrent.
4. VERY IMPORTANT: There seems to be an unfair assumption that most divorces should not have taken place AND that people get divorced only because they don’t want to work on their marriages.
I know this has been argued about before in the CR, and we won’t reach a conclusion. I don’t think it is something that anyone here can really know, and I’m not sure that anyone can really know.
What I do know is that people should be “dan l’kaf zchus” and realize that most people who get divorced are not selfish people and they do have good reasons for getting divorced. Perhaps, some divorces could have been prevented, and perhaps some couldn’t have.
But either way, it is unfair and incorrect to assume that most people getting divorced are doing so because they are selfish and lazy.
I trolled so hard in this thread and everyone ignored me. 😞
RY23, you need to learn at the feet of the masters.
Lilmod:
1. Are you talking about EY, America or both? What age are you defining as older? And what leads you to believe most older never married girls marry divorced/widowed men?
2. I don’t think there’s a significant number of twice divorced people for that to be a notable factor.
3. What leads you to believe most divorces are initiated by women?
4. What you call an “unfair assumption”, many gedolei rabbonim have asserted.
Joseph, I said what needed to be said, not what the people wanted to hear. At other times I was more successful, basing my words on the audience rather than the source material.
And what about those who get married too young or immature? Or they are otherwise not ready for marriage–either with their specific chasson/kallah or in general. They do so, because of the immense pressure to not still be single at age X. The window between the first date and the Chuppah if often just a couple of months. Very few if any go together to any sort of premarital counseling programs after the engagement due to: the lack of time; senseless “gedarim” which do not allow for too much contact; or, the stigma that doing so will mean that there might be a p’gam in the shidduch. So, the Shidduch Crisis has led to a marriage and divorce crisis.
Joseph:
1. Americans in both EY and Israel
Approximately 35+
I am basing this not only on my own friends and acquaintances but on their friends and acquaintances and people whom I hear about.I have been in many places and have met many types of people, and the Frum world is not that big, and the population of American Frum single girls who are 35+ is not so big, and I tend to hear about a lot of the single Frum girls of 35+ who get engaged (whether or not I know them), so I am fairly confident that while not a scientific study, it does seem that a significant percentage of older single girls who get married end up marrying guys who were married before.
It is also based to some extent on things that I have been told by shadchanim that would lead to this conclusion (albeit indirectly)2. I wouldn’t have thought so either until recently. But the older I get, the more I find that the divorced guys who are suggested to me have often been divorced more than once. It’s probably not most though, but there are a lot more than I would have thought. As you get into higher age ranges, I think the percentage rises greatly.
3. I’m pretty sure that I have read that, but I can’t remember the source. I think that I heard of it from more than one source.
4. I was expecting you to say that. Sorry, but I don’t think that any of your sources are proofs to that effect.
Also, please reread my last two sentences in my above post. I was not getting into a debate about whether or not most divorces could theoretically have been prevented.
The point is that regardless of whether or not theoretically it could have been prevented, that doesn’t make the people selfish and lazy and it doesn’t mean that they didn’t have good reasons for the divorce.
It’s only a “crisis”, because the Jewish community is stunned that many women want to obtain a legitimate education and profession moving forward. I promise that it will not be the end of the faith, if individuals get married at a more matured age, versus being pressured into marriage at a point where they cannot even legally buy alcohol.
One of societal Casualties Of The Shidduch Crisis is reduced population growth .
How are you defining “The Shidduch Crisis”?
It’s only a “crisis”, because the Jewish community is stunned that many women want to obtain a legitimate education and profession moving forward. I promise that it will not be the end of the faith, if individuals get married at a more matured age, versus being pressured into marriage at a point where they cannot even legally buy alcohol.
Same question.
Dr. E: The divorce crisis is much less in communities that have quick and early marriages than in communities that have longer dating and later marriages.
“versus being pressured into marriage at a point where they cannot even legally buy alcohol.”
As Frum Jews whose attitudes should come from the Torah and from our Mesorah, I don’t think the legal age to buy alcohol should have any bearing whatsoever on the age that we consider appropriate for marriage.
And by the way, I think the legal age for buying alcohol in EY is 18, and even that is a recent law (or else, it’s only recently that they started enforcing it). It used to be that a 5 year old could go to the local makolet and buy wine.
I also happen to find the word “pressured” to be offensive. Most people who get married at 19 or 20 are doing so because they want to. There is no more pressure on them to get married at that age than there is pressure on girls in other societies to delay marriage, and/or to go to college. Actually, I think there is probably a lot less.
Really Joe? That’s not what I am hearing. Take a poll of Bais Yaakovs from the past 5-10 Senior grades in your area. Ask the girls how many in their class are already divorced.
And I was not saying that the divorce rate was higher or lower than the other group that dates longer. I was merely comparing the current level to a base rate or 0% and what it has historically been in the Yeshivishe communities. It is much higher than before.Dr. E:. The Beis Yaakov girls today are not dating for shorter periods or getting married younger than the Beis Yaakov girls of 10 or 20 years ago have. In fact, if there’s been any changes in recent years compared to their mothers or older sisters, it is that they’re dating longer and getting married later.
So if the divorce rate is up currently, it clearly is not a result of them dating shorter than before or getting married younger than better. Indeed the opposite might be the case.
So we might do well considering to have the couples date shorter and marry even younger.
Further proof to this is that the Modern Orthodox community, which dates notably longer and gets married notably later, has a significantly higher divorce rate than the Yeshivish and Chasidic communities.
“Further proof to this is that the Modern Orthodox community, ………has a significantly higher divorce rate than the Yeshivish and Chasidic communities.”
rubbish. you made that up and I’m countering your opinion based claim with my opinion based claim stating it is rubbish.
Syag: How much experience do you have dealing with batei dinim cases of gittin? What I stated is clearly visible to anyone involved with batei dinim.
” How much experience do you have dealing with butei dinim cases of gittin?”
how much? Tons! I actually get kick backs from the batei dinim, one free slurpee for every marriage I break up and send their way.
oh c’mon, as if your personal experience spans the globe. please.
my daughter has 5 friends who are divorced. 5 bais Yaakov yeshivish friends married a year or less. and they are under 25. we have divorced MO couples as well but nothing like that. Gd willing when I speak to Rabbi Soleveichik next, who is round the clock involved in gitten, unfortunately, as well as in the shailos preceeding many of the divorces, I will ask him his opinion.
Anecdotal stories from who your daughter is friends with does little to change the demographic and statistical reality witnessed by batei dinim.
oh please. you have no access to a world wide data base of gittin nor would that list help you know what label to smack on people’s foreheads. Do you really think people will buy this stuff or are you actually believing it yourself?
People who know their rights are more likely to get divorced.
People who know their rights are also more likely to get arrested.
Its silly to argue about divorce rates. lets talk about happiness rates.
Less Chasidim getting divorced may not have to do with their better shalom bayis. It may be because it is much less acceptable for them to get divorced so they’d rather live unhappily.
not judging, just speculating.
Hashemisreading – Nice to hear from you! I don’t think you’ve been around for a while (unless you post on different threads than I do).
I speculate that it’s a combination, and probably mainly due to being happier. I think that today divorce has become pretty acceptable across the board, so I’m not sure how big a factor that is anymore in terms of comparing communities. I could be wrong though.
But I do think that in more insulated communities, there is a greater likelihood of people being satisfied with their marriages. And Chassidim tend to be more insulated.
A number of frum sociologists and demographers have attempted to peform studies that compare divorce rates across various segments of the jewish community (aka chareidi vs. MO etc)…the only thing they agree upon is that there is no reliable data upon which to perform such studies….thus, these anecodotal “expert” conclusions will continue….i
More insulated communities are not nearly as familiar with Hollywood and all the shmutz “marriages”in general society that poisons personal marriages of those that become influenced from society. Hence their greater happiness and lower divorce rate.
A higher crude divorce rate corresponds to higher marriage rate.
Joseph, this is a late reply, but here’s my take: not “notably” less, but quantifiably less in my estimation; and it’s difficult to truly quantify without a legitimate survey.
“Very Chasidish” communities family size may vary by location with KJ and New Square outnumbering Williamsburg & BP overall – so for them it’s likely more related to the housing crisis than the tuition crisis – so it’s actually the result of “financial” crisis. (And not that many women of that generation are really past childbearing age to determine number of kids with certainty).
Of course there are many variables at work here so cause and effect on my part is mere speculation, and it’s definitely not exactly black & white, with the more progressive and educated the fewer kids as another general trend in the secular AND FRUM world. You realize it’s true when people bring examples to disprove it, while it’s the exception that proves the rule.
And “coping” issues are not to be ignored either. Our generation has less stamina and strives for more perfection than the previous generation, which definitely takes a toll. And so the doros fall…
Mammele: The very Chasidish mosdos typically charge a pittance in tuition when compared to Litvish mosdos. (Forget about the arm and leg charged by MO schools.) It would seem unlikely tuition would cause this among Chasidim. That leaves housing. Is housing costs really quantifiably affecting family size in KJ and NS?
While on topic, in your estimation what are the ranges and what are the averages for family size (for families completed bearing children) between the various neighborhood/locations, progressiveness and groups?
Sorry Joseph, this is honestly out of my league.
And there are so many ranges within the same communities, nobody can really put people in simple boxes. I’m definitely not attempting to, and perhaps should have never started this discussion.
But everyone is welcome to define their own community numbers if they do desire. I don’t…
I love the alliteration in this thread’s title!
To those obsessed with the divorce rate, and the belief that there is any segment of the Torah observant community that has a greater or lesser percentage of failed marriages:
There is probably no feasible way to study this scientifically. But there are anecdotal reports that are enough to give us a good idea.
There are several types of people involved directly in gittin. These include dayanim, toanim, sofrim, matrimonial lawyers, mediators, and various therapists and counselors. Ask them if they are busy. I did. They are very busy.
Our population has grown, so more gittin does not imply that the “rate” is increasing. But it does imply a reasonable chance that almost everyone knows someone who is divorced.
Today’s world is different. Our young people are apt to feel entitled, and preparation for marriage has not kept pace. Perhaps the damaging role of the Internet is the ease of communicating with others, getting to feel supported in the efforts to leave a marriage. Accessing services is also easier.
Is the rate rising? I have no reason to believe that. I bet it fluctuates, and there could be an upticking of the numbers. But there is a larger population, and even the same old rate would mean higher numbers.
I would point out a few issues, probably deserving of another thread, that are significant underlying factors in current divorces.
One – withholding or secret keeping of information prior to a shidduch. There are young people with various issues, mental illness, etc. whose parents do not disclose that information prior to the shidduch. The discovery after the fact is quite shocking, and some of these issues are interferences in conducting a normal home. Gedolim are not consistent in when to disclose, but I have yet to encounter anyone that says to not disclose at all prior to the completion of a shidduch. yes, Chassidishe, Litvishe, and Yeshivishe communities are equal on this.
Two – getting married for the wrong reason. Some newlyweds that are in trouble will share that they got married because their friends were all getting married. There is not an ounce of saichel to this. If your friend is hungry, do you go to eat?
Three – poor preparation. So many couples today have no clue what marriage means. No idea how to communicate. No idea how to be respectful of the other, the in-law family, the other’s choices of career, learning, and personal choices. Parental role models are often inadequate, and the teaching by chosson and kallah teachers (which has overall improved over the years) is still woefully inadequate.
Four – lack of skills. How many young marrieds have a clue how to manage a budget? Do they know how to juggle the responsibilities between the religious and the mundane? How aware are they that the squeezing of one’s hands by davening is unrelated to kavana, which is a spiritual connection? Do they know how to instill true ruchniyos in their home, or are they obsessed with chumros?
Five – living for others. We have never been as preoccupied with image as in our generation. We need x because someone else has it. We are busy with what others think of us. We must appear perfect for the pictures. Societal recognition has surpassed in importance what we want HKB”H to think of us, and what we think of ourselves and each other.
Six – we have become overly shallow. The labels we apply to things and people are not just inaccurate (we can’t really know all we think we know) but actually serve to limit our experience. One facet of this is the midoh to be “dan lekaf zechus”, which is so often trashed in the labeling process. We generalize way too often. We struggle to find the good in others or in events. A classic example is getting stuck in traffic, when we later discover that had we been somewhere earlier, we could have been in an accident.
Seven – poor prioritization, sometimes horrific. We suffer from a sense of priorities that is sometimes so thwarted that it is senseless and even dangerous. Do we consider or reject a shidduch based on appearance, levush, or pedigree? This subject is really a long one, and deserves its own forum.
I could go one and on, but this sampling is a start. What is critical is that these issues are equal opportunity. Large families do not suffer from worse marriages or more divorces. There are factors that distinguish the happy from the miserable, but Chassidish versus Litvish versus Yeshivish are not among them.
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