- This topic has 49 replies, 17 voices, and was last updated 7 years, 6 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
What are the criteria for a watch or cuff links? Are signet rings okay?
Yes, nowadays men wear jewelry so it’s okay
It is forbidden for men to wear jewelry.
Joseph,
Does that include items like wristwatches or rings?
Nope definitely not forbidden
Men are forbidden to wear a ring.
A men’s watch isn’t jewelry.
Men are not forbidden to wear rings, so long as they are men’s rings.
There. A nice, genuine post free of “profanity”. Let’s see if it stays up.
So far so good! Keep up the good work!
Oh, wait.. I feel like I’m getting sucked into the “Arguing with Joseph” black hole of nonproductive, ridiculous banter, where good, unassuming people are driven mad by a lonely 17 year old Yeshiva student getting wifi from the local Starbucks.
So forget my genuine post.
LOLOLOL
We see from the incident of the eigel that men and boys wore jewelry. Of course, that doesn’t mean that it’s acceptable these days, since we also see that Rivka Imeinu wore a nose ring, and it’s probably not the kind of thing a Bais Yaakov girl would wear today.
Joseph, I understand that a Timex watch isn’t jewelry, but what about a Rolex? It’s [over]priced like jewelry.
Didn’t the Kohanim have elaborately jeweled breastplate?
Did the high priests not wear jewels and precious metals on other parts of their bodies, like arms, wrists, ankles, or necks?
Or is that different because it’s a klei kodesh and anyway they were instructed to wear their special breastplates with the 12 jewels, and that was how they communicated with Hashem?
Men are forbidden to wear a ring.
Yeah, I’ve also been told it’s forbidden to wear a blue shirt, a non-velvet yarmulke a T-shirt and jeans. Since I don’t listen to any of that, I won’t listen to you either.*
The Wolf
* Point in fact is that I do not wear a ring. However, that’s not out of any theological concern – it’s just a personal thing. I don’t like to wear rings.
Joseph, from S”A, Orach Chaim, Siman 651:7 (the rama at the end) it is strongly mashma that men can wear rings. Take a look.
Why can women wear skirts but not men?
Rav Moshe writes (EH 4:32) that a Yirei Shamayim man shouldn’t wear a ring.
Joseph,
Part 2 of the teshuva you cite is a lengthy explanation why a man can wear a wedding ring (even though it is a goysih custom) and after permitting the practice, the Rov concludes, “perhaps, for a yireih shomayim, it is ugly to wear a wedding ring, it is still not prohibited.”
It is not clear at all if the Rov means it is ugly for a y”s to wear a wedding ring because it is what goyim do (which is the topic of the tshuva) and therefore non-wedding rings are not even ugly for men to wear or if he means all rings are ugly for y”s men to wear.
In any event, your blanket statement “it is forbidden for men to wear jewelry, has now been refuted by two sources.
I retract the blanket term “prohibited” and replace it with my aforementioned paraphrasing of Rav Moshe.
Maybe this goes back to that teaching of how women were created for beauty, and not men?
At least that was what a rav cited in a shiur that I listened to a few weeks ago, where he explained that in shidduchim, a bochur is permitted to request a woman’s photo, but a woman shouldn’t be doing so because men weren’t created for beauty but women were.
Or is this different because men wearing jewelry can also signify social status and resources, like wealth with a gold chain. There are also men who wear Jewish stars on a gold necklace.
Another thought about women wearing jewelry, maybe it too signifies her wealth and resources. I once heard a rabbi talk about how giving a wife jewelry is a gift to her — obvious right? Yet the point is that buying a wife something like a new vacuum cleaner or something else practical may benefit others too. Jewelry on the other hand is something that she can appreciate and feel good about. It speaks to her personally.
Both cuff links and watches have a practical use. I would not consider either as jewelry. Though that’s a question for one’s rav.
*****QUESTION: Weren’t cuff links necessary back in the day when clothing was tailor made?
Perhaps now cuff links are considered more of an accessory, but I’ve seen men wearing shirts that require them. So are they really an accessory or in the category of jewelry?
Now commercial buttons are readily available and inexpensive. Yet, not all shirts may come with buttons. In previous generations, cuff links helps secure the shirts to one’s wrists. Without that space, a hand couldn’t fit through, right?
Thank you
Joseph, you didn’t answer my question about whether a Rolex is jewelry.
YY: If you send me a Rolex I could answer your question most accurately. 😉
To answer your question, no, a Rolex isn’t jewelry (in the halachic sense.)
LB – Only the Kohain Godol wore the Choshen (the breastplate that you are referring to). There was no jewelry for a regular Kohain.
There is some relation of men’s watches and jewelry because of the issue of carrying on Shabbos and a man’s watch that is broken, no? I know that a woman can continue to wear a watch that has stopped because it is jewelry but a man cannot (for the same reason?). Can someone elaborate on this aspect of men and jewelry?
Is a Rolex really overpriced?
I wear a Rolex ss/18K YG Rolex Oyster as my everyday watch. I paid $1600 for it in 1983. I’ve had 34 trouble free years for about $47 per year. I don’t think that’s overpriced. Chances are I’ll continue to wear it for at least another 20 years (hopefully 40). After that it will go to my eldest son.
pretty sure i heard that r chaim kanievsky doesnt like men wearing watches but i think we dont hold like that
A watch is not considered to be part of a man’s clothing on Shabbos because a man would not wear
his watch if it wasn’t functional, while a woman would still wear a non-functioning watch as jewelry.“A bochur is permitted to request a woman’s photo, but a woman shouldn’t
be doing so because men weren’t created for beauty but women were”This sounds off to me (and certainly, such a statement could not be found
in pre-modern sources). The problem is, the Gemara does forbid a man to
betroth a woman unless he has seen her, but not a woman. One could
argue, though, that if the man has seen the woman, she has presumably
seen him as well.
(In any case, rabbonim have spoken out against asking for pictures.)Perhaps the Gemara is telling us that an issue with a man’s appearance
would not be enough to make his wife demand a divorce from him,
and that is why it doesn’t matter whether she sees him first?To address the original question:
What are the criteria for a watch or cuff links? Are signet rings okay?
I don’t think there are criteria within item classes (I could be wrong, of course).
Signet rings are presumably permissible to wear, but not, I suspect, on Shabbos.Lightbrite, I just noticed your post from a few days ago.
Only the kohen gadol (high priest) wore the choshen (breastplate). The regular kohanim did not. I do not believe they wore any form of jewelry as part of their bigdei kehuna. Hope that clarifies things.Thanks Nechomah! 🙂
Thanks zaltzvasser! 🙂
Thanks for clarifying that it was only Kohen Gadolim that wore the breastplate, and the rest of the Kohenim didn’t wear jewelry 🙂
Also, lightbrite, women weren’t created “for beauty.” Women are supposed to use their beauty to uplift others. Women were created for the same purpose as men – to serve Hashem and earn their olam haba.
$1600 in 1983 dollars is almost $4000 in 2017 dollars. Different strokes for different folks, but I’m happy with the $40 Seiko I got on eBay. I expect it will last at least 15 years, as did my first Seiko.
It is comon knowledge in Israel, that since Rav Elyashiv Z”L was nifter, anyone who visits R’ Chaim Kanievsky is asked to remove his wristwatch, because R’ Chaim quoted in the name of the Chazon Ish that wearing ANY type of wristwatch is considered “Beged Isha”. This is because it is not the type of watch that’s beged isha but the concept of wearing a wristwatch. (mods – please dont post the expected retorts like “women wear shoes too, so maybe we should wear shoes”).
The reason this happened only after Rav Elyasiv was nifter is because R’ Elyasiv disagreed with this psak, (as many of the pictures of him clearly show him wearing a wristwatch.
I also heard that R’ Nissen Korelitz Shlit”a said that the chazon is only meant “jewelry style” watches (even gold chosson watches) not simple watches. But Jewelry type watches are forbidden even if they are exclusively mens styles. [I have heard this but never confirmed it].I visited R’ Kanievsky several months after R’ Elyashiv’s petira and I was not told to remove my wristwatch.
This is because it is not the type of watch that’s beged isha but the concept of wearing a wristwatch. (mods – please dont post the expected retorts like “women wear shoes too, so maybe we should wear shoes”).
Why not? I think that’s a very good counterargument.
Given that both men and women wear them extensively, why is wearing a wrist watch such an exclusively feminine concept that it would fall under the rubric of “lo yilbash?”
The Wolf
The difference is shoes were always worn by men, whereas wristwatch for centuries were almost exclusively worn by women.
It’s been about a century since wristwatches became popular among men, though.
Does the definition of beged ish/ishah not change with popular practice?“Does the definition of beged ish/ishah not change with popular practice?”
In that case you might similarly argue just as men started wearing wristwatches, women started wearing pants.
Are both those changes equally acceptable?
Yes – it simply happens to be that women can’t wear pants because of tznius.
Rabbi Bender shlita once told me that pants aren’t considered beged ish anymore. He said the first women to wear them violated the issur, but once it became the norm for women to wear pants, it wasn’t an issue anymore. He said it’s due to tznius, and if there were pants that were tznius, there would be no problem with a woman wearing them.
So the maskama here is he who would allow his wife to wear “tznius” pants, may himself wear a “men’s” wristwatch? 😉
While many, and maybe most, Poskim today hold that the problem with women wearing pants today is tznius, I believe there still are some opinions that it is beged ish. That may not be the opinion that most go by, but I am fairly certain there is such an opinion given by accepted Poskim.
Perhaps Rav Chaim Kanievsky, shlita, holds that pants are beged ish. And as far as I know he is the only one who holds that men are not allowed to wear watches.
Does R’ Kanievsky approve of pocket watches for men?
What could possibly be wrong with pocketwatches? Those are what men always carried when women wore wristwatches for centuries.
THIS JUST IN – AS HEARED DIRECTLY FROM RAV CHAIM KANIEVSKY HIMSELF:
The reason that the Chazon Ish held that a wristwatch is considered “begged isha” is not just because women wear or wore wristwatches, but because the ORIGIN of wearing a wristwatch was begun as an ORNAMENT FOR WOMEN.
Thus the Chazon Ish held that something which began as something exclusively for women’s adornment does not become muttar when men also begin wearing it. [Thus the difference between wristwatches and shoes, hats, etc.]
Pocket watches are clearly permitted even by this shita.Cont. of previous post:
Rav CK Also pointed out that according to this shita, even if the watch is exclusively a men’s style it is still considered beged isha and there is also no difference whether the watch is a jewelry type of watch or just a plain one, since the issur stems from the actual wearing of a wristwatch being a beged isha.
This is the part which Rav Nissim Korelitz Shlit”a disagrees with. He says that the Chazon Ish was only opposed to men wearing jewelry type of watches such as gold watches or expensive brand name watches. [this I heard second hand. I did not hear it from R’ NK himself].
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.