About the RCA, I do shudder.

Frankly sometimes is not even Halacha, Its just presentation

A Chiloni just might feel more comforatable with a Rabbi who speaks Hebrew with an Israeli Accent as opposed to a Yiddish accented hebrew. And the Hebrew accented on might speak to them in a matter they are accustomed to in their venacular. (as opposed to constantly quoting posukim and talking indirectly)

popa-bar-abba-You are being facetious, aren’t you? You never heard of anyone asserting that “daas torah’ is infallible and we ust followe it? We must live in on different planets!

And you will have to show where, amongst all the many volumes of halacha, is there a direct instruction how to elect a rabbi ? Clearly, such a person needs some qualities but do you have any source that tells me whom to elect?

Classic strawmen cna be attributed to your writings too…

But sure, there are plenty of sources I can point to with guidelines. There is plenty of guidance on what the qualities of an appointed rav should be.

As said before, the position of “chief Rabbi” is mostly political, with all of the patronage that goes along with it. Appointing a Rov of a city is an entirely different scenario.

What planet do you live on?

The Disc, on top of four elephants carried by the great A’tuin. Where the sun revolves around the Earth, as Da’as Torah has declared, and so it was.

🙂

(you ask a question like that, this is the answer you get).

gavra- And? Change the law so that mistakes don’t happen. A simple solution would be to require a double ring ceremony.

The traditionalists would never agree to that. They do have issues with following halacha sometimes, but they never want to break tradition .

The traditionalists would never agree to that. They do have issues with following halacha sometimes, but they never want to break tradition .

How about having the ceremony on a pitched roof with a fiddler balancing on top?

Equality (or claims of such) will trump tradition in their minds.

ROB, I am sorry to repeat it,but if you learn more Gemorah and Poskim you’ll see that many of the things you think of as mili de’alma are not that — there are Halachos and Hashhkofos about them. Do you really think that election of a Chief Rabbi who is going to pasken shailos and supervise marriages, kashrus, mikvaos etc. is in mili de’alma categery? Are you saying this with a straight face?

Secondly, I do not believe Poskim are infallible, but I also think it is wrong for a layman or half-layman to reject their opinion casually because he doesn’t like it (without very solid proofs).

GAW – Archdeacon Vorbis reliably informs me that the world is a sphere, and, after much persuasion, I have admitted to this. The truth in this case really did hurt…

P.S. The Turtle Moves!

popa -bar -abba: can you tell me what “objective” response you have to the recent controversy about the draft? The irony here is that the only halachic sources are PRO- draft! (See gemoro sotah and rambam). Halacha has nuances-clearly- but you have a foundation(shulchan aruch) upon which to base your assumptions!

to mdd: Within your words, you answered yourself the question: these are HASHKOFOS, not HALOCHOS. Do you believe that “torah im derech Eretz’ (RSR Hirsch way) was against halocho? certainly not! Yet, the hungarian rabbonim (and today, the Israeli chareidim) are dead set against such a derech. It is a HASHKOFO, not a halocho.

As far as questioning the Poskim, I, for one, will not question a psak halocho of the great Poskim unless I have some solid other sources. It would be outrageous for me to dispute, for example, R”moshe piskei halocho- although other Poskim may disagree.

However, I feel quite comfortable in taking a different view about Zionisnm for example. This is not a halachic question (as much as Satmar would like it to be)and I free to follow my own inclinations, especially as I can find support in other Gedolim!

As far as the Chief Rabbi, if his piskei halocho make sense, then what is the problem? You may disagree and you can follow whomever you want to ,but in halacha ,there are solid parameters to follow.

popa-bar-abba-Your comments do confuse me. I wrote that in ‘milei d’alma’ one is not obligated to follow a Possek- to which you replied that all things in life should be subject to Torah decisions, from which I demurred,asserting that obligations only count in the hahacha sphere. Now, I am not sure what you are advocating. For example, the recent draft controversy has evoked sayings of “jaharog ve’al jaavor” in resisting the laws. Do yo uconsider that objective? And must I follow this reasoning?

Zionism is another historic example- Some gedolim consider it “jaharog ve’al jaavor’ (see Brisk) Is that a halachic ordinance that I must follow??

I would submit that in both these instances, the halachic basis is virtually non-existent and i can follow my own feelings on this.

Now let’s get back to the RCA and Chacham Ovadia.

popa, do you still shudder about the RCA, having decided to be dan l’kaf zchus that the letter referred to those who assaulted the Rav at the wedding, and not Chacham Ovadia?

Mods, do you still think it was a chutzpa, or did you come around to that way of thinking as well?

And what about the member of the Moetzes who can’t win in Beis Din because he’s a lo tzais dina?

ROB, you’ve already been proven wrong about your idolatry of Zionism. This does not mean you can’t live in Israel, but the halachos against Zionism are very much real, contrary to Zionist fantasies.

And it’s not just Brisk and Satmar. Rabbi Reisman, as published on the front page of the Flatbush Jewish Journal, a while back, said that the gedolim held that the founding of the State did not change the halachic problems with Zionism and the State due to the 3 Oaths, etc.; what changed is the tactics of working either with Zionism or outside it, depending on your view.

But no objective Rabbi argues against the clear reality that Zionism was and is treif and shmad. Read Rav Elchonon’s Ikvesa DiMishicha and read Zionist history going back past the last century up until today. It’s clear to those not pocheis al shitei haSiifim.

I recently saw an article from a Rabbi who works with one of the “Frum” programs in the IDF and he admitted that the IDF is not a place for a frum kid who is “on the derech”, regardless of gender. That, too, is certainly a question of halacha, though it’s not that much of a question since the Chazon Ish and others forbade it for both boys and girls.

From a cursory reading of your posts, keeping in mind that you are a Zionist, it seems your entire halachic compass is way off, which is why PBA’s discussion with you is not going anywhere.

But you can go back to the Rabbi Dov Lipman thread and re-read, if you’d like. As you said there, nothing will convince you to give up your eigel, but you can re-read it anyways.

popa-bar-abba: In other words, you don’t allow people to have any brains when deciding what to do with their lives? By definition, if it is not in the shulchan aruch, we do not know what the Torah tells us to do and, ergo, it is subject to our feelings and opinions.

rabbiofberlin,

Actually the ruling of “Yahrog V’al Yavor” disallowing people to go to the army is very much a Halachic Ruling.

The Gedolim who ruled as such made their feelings known quite clearly they feel that thethe underlying reason is cause to declare it a “Shas Hashmad”.

Now the classical case of “shas Hashmad of “araksa d’misana is

something that you would feel has noting to do with halacha, it was merely a mode of dress. Yet Chazal make plain that Shas Hashmad refers to everything.

Now of course you disagree with the Halachic reasoning of the Gedolei Yisroel, however instead of admitting as such you chose to say that it’s a political statement instead of admitting this is Rav Shteinman’s halachic take on the matter.

“Stand up to these 3 people who run the RCA and say: Not in my name.”

Do you really think that Chacham Ovadiah was justified what he said about Rabbi Stav?

If so, please explain what Rabbi Stav has done to justify being likened to an idolater.

If not, please state precisely what should have been done to counter.

Is Shas Hashmad an objective state? Does it depend on a declaration of the Chachomim? Does it need both, akin to tzaras in a house?

What if some poskim say a situation is not Shas Hashmad, are you required to listen to those poskim because we are meikel by sakanas nefashos?

I pose the following hypothetical: The Chief Rabbinate outlaws kitniyos on Pesach. Anyone caught eating or cooking kitniyos on Pesach goes to jail for a year. Is this Shas Hashmad for Sefardim? Are they required to eat the kitiyos and go jail?

It should be note that Rav Lichtenstein is supporting Rabbi Stav’s candidacy for Chief Rabbi, as reported right here on YWN:

http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/article.php?p=169616

Ben Levi: We have a Rambam, Rif, Shulchan Aruch and more. Please show me where the bill for drafting some yeshiva bochorim is considered “shaas Hashmad”. As I said, the halachic rulings on this (gemoro Sotah and Rambam) are PRO-draft! Just because somenone says it is “shaas Hashmad’ doesn’t make it so.And you are correct in saying that I do not accept that description of the situation,regardless who said it.

Sam2- what did you find wrong about my postings?

popa- At this stage, I have no idea what you mean. As I said, many things are covered by shulchan aruch. Many are not. In the latter case, you may feel that you have to act in a certain way and that is fine. But this is not halacha, it is hashkofo and is not binding.

Is not all this topic L”H???

PBA: If you were the only person, then you’d probably be wrong in your assumption that what you’re doing is standing up for Kavod HaTorah. But that’s irrelevant. This discussion, as is, should have died after it was clear the letter never should have been made public. You can create a new thread to decry the other tangential points brought up in this thread.

popa- we disagree. The border between halachic matters and non-halachic matters can be hazy but many things are very obvious. Why it should be ‘apikorsus’ escapes me.

Btw- shemita is well covered in the Rambam and has many halachic ramifications. Heter mechira is a legitimate halachic tool, so , for the ones who accept it, it is fully allowed by halacha.

Why can’t we as people who respect Talmidei Chachomim accept that it isn’t our place to stick our heads into a fight between people who clearly outrank any of us in terms of Torah Learning and helping the Klal.

I don’t think the majority of people here would dare say their own opinion on the fight between Yaavetz and Rav Yonantan Eybshutz (and yaavetz said things WAY worse about RY”E then Rav Ovadia did about Rav Stav)

Why do you think it is Ok to insert personal opinions on private letters between Rabbonim? If you are Israeli just quietly vote for who you want and if you aren’t try not sticking your head were it doesn’t belong in any way…

Who votes for the Chief Rabbi is it a public election or is it voted on by the Kenssett or some other body?

As an aside the Oi Limie Shlamdo Torah part of the letter is clearly going on the Bochrim who attacked Rav Stav at Rabbi Rabbinowitz’s Daughter’s wedding.