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Mw13
“so we had to take matters into our own hands and fight a physical battle to save our spiritual well-being”Shkoyach for the cute vertel. (It isnt historically accurate of course for e.g. there was no violent uprising when faced by the Spanish inquisition but I don’t mean to nitpick and it is a nice (and famous)vertel)
However it stretches credibility to call the required registration that has been in place for decades a threat in “our spiritual well being”
Being in learning is not about whether you would be able to pass a test.
I challenge anybody to argue this point.
Its not about the learning, its about the Stipend.
There is a limited amount of money for stipends and you need to figure out who gets it
Ubiquitin, from the last sentence of your last post, it sounds like you are not even aware of the reason for the protests. I think you should find out the reason for the protests before you start criticizing the protesters.
takahmamash:
If the discussion about girls serving in the IDF had been a theoretical one, I would have gotten busy accumulating the names of all the poskim from both Chareidi and DL circles that concurred with the previously quoted psak of the Chazon Ish.But seeing as this discussion is about people in particular, namely your daughters, I will just say that I am happy to hear that you think being in the IDF “was a positive influence on their Avodat Hashem”, and I hope that that indeed was the case, and that they continue to grow in ruchniyus and only make you proud.
ubiq:
it stretches credibility to call the required registration that has been in place for decades a threat in “our spiritual well being”Perhaps, but that has nothing to do with the accusation that you made about hypocrisy. They view this as a spiritual threat, rightly or wrongly, and they there believe a certain amount of hishdalus in necessary.
LU
“it sounds like you are not even aware of the reason for the protests.”
Dont worry I am well aware of the reason. It is to provide an outlet and let off some steam. Ive been to my fair share of protests. My favorite ones where in the 90’s when people protested chilul Shabbos hoping the mishtara would show up causing more chilul shabbos than was prevented. Good times. Though sadly not as many people were inconveniencedNE: Being in learning is not about whether you would be able to pass a test.
Thank you for pointing that out. Learning Torah is not reserved for the elite and the highly intelligent. Anyone can and should do it.
Shkoyach for the cute vertel.
It’s not just a cute vertel. The Chafetz Chaim was ready and willing to go to war for the spiritual future of Klal Yisroel. The Darkei Mussar (R’ Yisroel Neiman; Chanukah) writes that he was present by the Chafetz Chaim for Seudas Shlishis in Shabbos with ten Rabbanim, and the conversation turned to a new decree posed by the Russian government against Yiddishkeit. The Chofetz Chaim got up and thundered – if by the following week the decree would not be retracted, they would have to go to war.
Everyone present was stunned. (Think of the famous video of the C”C, and try picture the C”C in battle) War? Who could fight the mighty Russian empire? The C”C announced that they were not worse than the Maccabim, and although they stood no chance against the Russian Empire, they were still obligated to make a military stand. (Imagine ten rabbanim, led by the Chofetz Chaim, marching down the streets?)
However it stretches credibility to call the required registration that has been in place for decades a threat in “our spiritual well being”
You’ll have to take that up with Hagaon Hatzadik R’ Shmuel Aurebach.
Ubiquitin – based on your last post, the issue is greater than not being aware of the reason for the protests.
It’s about not being aware of the purpose of this thread, and more importantly the purpose of our existence.
MW, I was told this by a rav who has relatives who learn there. He is more reliable in my eyes than you. Of course, if someone does not want to take the stipend he need not take an exam.Even more so if he pays tuition. However, even then two exams are required for admission. I think it is fairly obviously that someone who is obviously goofing off will be asked to leave. In fact, I personally was told by two people that their rabbanim in yeshiva katana told them to go acquire professions as they were not up to par in learning.
As for every Jew being obligated to learn Torah, would you tell someone not to put on tefillin, do kibud av v’em, daven (unless he learns like Rashbi and his colleagues) so that he can learn more? See “Does Torah Study Override Army Service?” by Rav Eliezer Melamed. Of course, just as there are some soldiers who do other non-combat roles there can be some soldiers who sit and learn full-time. However, they must make some contribution to the army.
yekke
“It’s not just a cute vertel. The Chafetz Chaim was ready and willing to go to war for the spiritual future of Klal Yisroel …”
Though your story sounds imaginary, mostsignificantly because the Russians did (as I assume you know) pose a threat to Yidishkeit, yet (to the best of my knowedge) there was no mass riots. Im not arguing on the point of the vertel. But using it as a histroical explanation isnt literal. I provided an exception, as did you.
“You’ll have to take that up with Hagaon Hatzadik R’ Shmuel Aurebach.”
Gladly! do you have his number? or email perhaps? I fairly certain he doesnt read YWNLU
“It’s about not being aware of the purpose of this thread, and more importantly the purpose of our existence.”sure I do! the purpose of our existence is to be mechalel shomayim and draw the ire of chilonim (and many chareidim) while inconveniencing them over a non-issue.
“You’ll have to take that up with Hagaon Hatzadik R’ Shmuel Aurebach.”
+1. Like MW, I follow Rav Chaim Shlita and Rav Shteinman Shlita, but no one has a right to be mevaeh Talmidei Chachamim.
One thing that seems to show through many of the comments here is that the protests are masquerading behind the “military registration” issue, and that this is really about letting off steam. I return to a position I shared earlier (I think on another thread on this topic). These bochurim can protest peacefully if they choose to do so. Or they can use the מלחמת התורה and keep themselves busy in the Beis Hamedrash. They have clearly chosen to use this as an excuse for mayhem, violence, and the resulting chilul Hashem. That’s where I oppose the entire thing. I do not have any direct reason to opine about the supposed topic, and can accept differing opinions, being respectful of both. Both are coming from gedolei Yisroel. But the violence thing is not associated with the דרכיה דרכי נועם that should be a hallmark of בחורי ישיבה who are supposedly dedicated to לימוד התורה.
These same factions of כלל ישראל were vocal in opposition to Meir Kahane, who was not actually violent, but openly oppositional. Today’s bochurim, perhaps having learned from movements like BLM and similar groups have decided it is okay to behave so in public, even at the expense of learning. This deterioration of values is alarming to me.
Dear Yerushalmi Faction member:
Let’s understand each other before you read any further.
I am considered haredi, my children are considered haredi and so are my grandchildren. As such, no one is in a better position to look carefully at who you are, what you represent, what your goal is and what you are really accomplishing.
Basically speaking, let’s face it: you are a hooligan, a law-breaker and a wretched model of what a Yeshiva Bochur (yeshiva student, ed.) should not be. How dare you! Your wild and reckless rioting will never result in the army rescinding its draft guidelines. Your ugly shenanigans perpetrated against the rest of the innocent public will only cause the full extent of the law to come crashing down around your ears.
And so it should be. And the sooner the better.
I always tried to compare ‘our’ children to those who live in Gaza and the Palestinian Authority-administered territories. I always marveled at the wide schism of normal and human behavior exhibited by ‘our’ children in comparison to the youth across the border. Ours were taught manners, respect, decency, kindness and the relationship between man and G-D. We were taught that as human beings, our lives need to emulate that of the One Above. They, on the other hand, are taught that life has no value, decency is non existent, politeness is a waste of time and their Allah is an angry, blood thirsty deity.
And then you came along, exposing yourself to the world as a spoiled, useless piece of work who doesn’t care about the rest of society. Just who do you think you are? Your name in Hebrew, Peleg Yerushalmi, using the word peleg, says it all. Peleg means to divide, to split up, to shatter. Shame on you.
I’ve been watching you all these weeks. I noticed that you and your fellow hoods truly believe that the world is yours. You’ve been blocking traffic, threatening, pushing, kicking and rioting in order to accomplish… what?
I watched you and your little brothers, the 8,10,12, and 14 year-olds, harass drivers and innocent by-standers only because you don’t agree with their attire. You insulted, cursed and physically mauled a woman who happened to walk by while you were displaying your ugliness on the streets of Jerusalem. You disgust me. Shame on you!
You are a disgrace. As a haredi, I am telling you that you are an unworthy imitation of a frum [religious] Jew who needs to be taught a swift, harsh lesson. I strongly believe that the army and police are treating you with too much compassion, with kid gloves. I believe the time has come for the authorities to engage you as the terrorist you are. Because you are.
It’s only a matter of time until the frustration you are creating for drivers by blocking and delaying them will explode in your face. It will only be a matter of time until a frustrated driver runs you down. That anger was demonstrated already in the city of Bnei Brak as a furious driver came out swinging with a stick. How much longer before someone cracks your head?
In addition to your grotesque behavior, you are a total hypocrite. You are demonstrating against the draft because the Torah is what you are concerned about. Right? Not so fast.
What you really want is to be left alone to continue on your merry way of doing absolutely nothing with your life. Because you are obviously not learning. Seeing the hundreds of hours you’ve wasted, learning is the last thing on your mind. How many precious hours, days, weeks have you already squandered in this manner? How many enemies to the Torah way of life have you created during that wasteful time? Can’t count, can you?
The audacity and ugliness which you portray, have no limits. In your audacious chutzpa you have no qualms about calling our soldiers and police officers the vilest of names. How dare you spit the word Nazi and hurl it at a Jewish son, my nephew, your neighbor? These are the same ‘Nazis’ – you moron – who’d sacrifice their lives to protect your worthless one. These are the same ‘Nazis’ who will not hesitate for a second to save you, the one who vilifies them with vile epithets. When you need them, you appreciate their presence and sacrifice, don’t you? Shameless ingrate.
Were I in a position to do so, I would treat you quite differently, my young idiot. I would give you an hour ultimatum, sixty minutes exactly, to cease and desist and if you don’t, I would then follow up with riot-control methods you haven’t yet experienced. Believe me, your eagerness to riot and damage and sit in front of cars will quickly dissipate as you and your colleagues disappear like smoke in the wind.
And then….I would send my ‘Nazis’ to knock on your door and your friend’s and his buddy………every single, rioting young man. There will be no more extensions or postponements for you and the rest of your gang. You will be drafted immediately and sent for training, not to be furloughed for the next number of years. You will be cured of your sickness, believe me.
And your brother, when he reaches the draft age, will meekly, politely and precisely sign the registration papers without a whimper.
That time is coming.
Isaac Kohn is SVP of HealthPoint Acquisitions.
edited
PHOTOS: Yitzhar Residents Take To The Streets Following Fatal Car Ramming Attack
Just curious if ubiq & avi k think that this is also “to provide an outlet and let off some steam”, “time to play in the street and inconvenience others”, etc?
mw- i don’t believe for a second that you think the two are comparable. the question isn’t rational or even worth answering.
MW, all the residents of Yitzhar did was stand around with signs and shout a bit. While they did block Arab drivers according to polls the Arabs in Yehuda v’Shomron overwhelmingly support terror attacks.
SL:
So now we can get to the crux of the actual issue instead of just lobbing insults at each other.Is the means of protest really the issue here? Do people really think that blocking traffic is an absolutely illegitimate and reprehensible form of protest?
If that were true, then they should be saying the same about the protests in Yitzhar as well.
(Also realize, the protests in Yitzhar have even less of a chance of actually being effective in stopping terror attacks than the Peleg protests have of getting the draft rescinded.)
Or is is the complaints about the means of protest a straw man, and what the protest are about is the real issue?
mods, I think that volley of pure hate that was reposted was a little much, even for this place… some insults just should not tolerated.
I will also yet again express my amazement how the same people who react (correctly) so viciously to Jews being called Nazis, have no problem with turning around and calling the Jews that they disagree with “terrorists”. I think it says alot about how much they actually care about the language people use, or if it’s all just a sham to browbeat people they hate from the depths of their being. Tthis is sinas chinam at its worst.
But SL, while we’re on the subject of non-rational comparisons, as you so politely put it, I’m wondering what your thoughts are about comparing blocking traffic to murdering innocent people, aka terrorism?
I’m with mw13 on this one.
All those who are upset because “blocking traffic” is not a peaceful way of demonstrating and is wrong should be equally disturbed by the Yitzhar protest. And I guarantee you, you would never find any of the posters who complained above condemning this.
;Blocking roads is against the law. It is not “protesting civilly.”
and What posek allows for actual genevas , like someone who because of the street being block is late to work and misses pay or someone being block and is late getting home to the babysitter and has to pay them extra money
If you want a proper protest, go to the Beis Medrash and say Tehilim. You will be asking the proper authority on this matter (and the only one who matters) and not inconvience anyone
Of course the protests cannot be compared, Syag, but only because the issue isn’t blocking traffic.
VIDEO/PHOTOS: 6 Arrested After Charedi Soldier Attacked Walking Through Meah Shearim
Double standard is unfortunately extremely common among the more liberal posters here. In the above example, somebody calls for the death sentence to a boy who was arrested for hitting a soldier. While the boy was obviously wrong for attacking the soldier, I find it disgustingly ironic how someone protesting unnecessary violence suggests the Death Penalty.
“Just curious if ubiq & avi k think that this is also “to provide an outlet and let off some steam”, “time to play in the street and inconvenience others”, etc?”
I dont follow. Are they inconvenencing others? What is the connection?
The real crux of the issue is there is not much that can eb doen about it, which is why People are calling for murder/death penalty and comparing to terrorsim, there is no rational way to deal with these people (of course calling for merder is absurd, which is my point) this isnt a rational protest over a real issue. This is pure mayhem for the sake of mayhem. These people have no interest in reason, they have no job that they are missing and no Torah they are missing either. They can spend their days in and out inconvenencing others who do have to go to work learn etc. And not much that can be done.
There is no comparison to disabled people protesting, who a have a specific goal made their point and moved on. The fact that you provide a report of one incident, with not many people being inconvenienced and ended quickly, highlights how your comparison (much like the comparison to terrosim) is absurdSo you think inconveniencing some people is fine, but inconveniencing many people is comparable to terrorism?
The only thing that I can think of responding to such a thing is:
“there is no rational way to deal with these people… this isnt a rational protest over a real issue. This is pure mayhem for the sake of mayhem”And you’re a terrorist, so there.
I am not sure you want to compare a bunch of Buchrim protesting registering for the draft to people in a wheelchair who need some extra help. You are not going to win many debates with that comparison
All right, I think it’s time to call it quits. For a while there we had an intelligent, if vehement, conversation going. But now we’re just down to nakedly partisan hatred, ridiculous comparisons, vile name-calling, and even what seems to be people calling for the death of their fellow Jews due to political differences. Honestly, I’m saddened to see so much sheer hatred.
Oh, and you’re all of bunch of murderous terrorist Nazis if you disagree with me.
Reductio ad Hitlerum.
Godwin strikes again.
mw13
“So you think inconveniencing some people is fine, ”
I wouldnt say “fine” but sometimes it is neccesary“but inconveniencing many people is comparable to terrorism?”
Um no. I explictly said the opposite. (see: “highlights how your comparison (much like the comparison to terrosim) is absurd”)
“there is no rational way to deal with these people… this isnt a rational protest over a real issue. This is pure mayhem for the sake of mayhem”
Um yeah that was what I said. so we agree?
“And you’re a terrorist, so there.”
Ok, i’ll bite/ How did you reach that profound conclusion?
“ridiculous comparisons, ”
werent you the one who compared protesting for a draft registration that existed for decades to protesting terrorism?“vile name-calling”
werent you the one who called me a terrorist?LU, I’m still waiting for your source that most dati soldiers become not frum.
Blocking traffic is a common form of civil protest in all democracies, including the US.
Let’s not get carried away in describing it as any more than that.
mw, I have to agree with ubiq that you are calling it quits for the direction of ad hominem and hatred but it sounds like you are the one who is angriest and attacking personally. On the other hand I agree wholeheartedly with you that this thread needs to close. As a matter of fact I think I have actually done it already once.
I would think it would benefit everyone who posted here to reread some of the posts that angered you so much and see, when removed, if it really said what you thought/accused it of saying. I believe there were more foaming mouths responding to things they assumed they read then what they actually read. And that prejudice we carry, I believe, is even sadder that the subject at hand.
Good Shabbos all.
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