about the protest in yerushalaim

” I don’t feel a פחד מות when I walk past a Zionist policeman.”

I’m just wondering: Do all not-Frum Jews today fall in the category of tzionim in the context that you are talking about? Or do you mean specifically because they are policemen? If so, do all policemen today automatically fall in that category? Most policemen today are just regular Israeli Jews who happened to have grown up as chilonim in Israel and decided to become policemen. Would he consider them to fall in that category? Or was he only talking about the original tzionim – those people who chose to be secular zionists as an ideology and were fighting for a secular state (and fighting against Torah) as opposed to most chilonim of today who are not really tzionim in the same sense?

Lilmod,

1. Who are these anonymous poskim? Rav Ovadia (Yechaveh Deah 5:4) says the opposite. Not only that he says that one cannot say “kim li” (I hold like others) as both Rambam (Hilchot Melachim 3:8 – where he says that a violator can even be executed by the government for minor offenses such as failing to make turn when instructed or violating house arrest) and the Mechaber (CM 369:6). Rav Shlomo Ishun even goes so far as to say that if taxes must be raised because of evasion the evaders are guilty of robbery (see העלמת מס by Rav Zalman Baruch Melamed on the Betel yeshiva website).

2. It think that they were pulling his leg. You and your brother are in good company though. I know an talmid chacham who has never been outside Israel. He actually believed an American who told him that there a red light is only a recommendation and not a law. I, in fact, know a rav whose sons and son-in-law have been in the army and he says the opposite. For that matter, I have a friend who did his miluim making a base kosher for Pesach (this is called מבצע פסח).

You are correct though that there is much room for improvement. The way to effect that is from within. Thus Rav Tau rebuked MK Smotrich for calling for guys to stop enlisting. The same goes for other areas of society. In fact, Rav Yaakov Ariel explicitly stated that it is a mitzva for those knowledgeable in both Halacha and secular law to become judges.

3. Many boys stop being frum in many places. Some stop in yeshiva because they are not suited for full-time learning but do not have any other alternatives in Chareidi society.

Lilmod, see “How Does the IDF Celebrate Passover?” on the IDF blog. Do you really think that a soldier would dare to bring a roll to the seder right in front of the rav of the base? A soldier brought a ham sandwich onto the base for private use. At first he was given 21 days in the stockade. After a certain radio personality reported it it was reduced to confinement to the base (also not very pleasant). Once a secular officer caught a soldier about to treif up a utensil. He told him that if he did he would be assigned to clean every utensil on the base.As for the “required hashgacha”, not having a Badatz hashgacha does not make it treif. There is no right to compel others to accept chumrot.

Regarding guys going OTD in the army, guys go OTD in many places. They also became closer in many places. Both the OU and hesder yeshivot have programs in cooperation with the IDF.

“Many boys stop being Frum in the army.”

Tragically, many become not frum and have never been within 100 miles of an army base.

Apushatayid, not only that, the do those things in their own neighborhoods. This shows that the protests are not against the IDF per se but an attempt to take over.

There has not been alot of Torah written about running a government in a modern society, In fact almost none.

I think most people agree , Israel needs an army (Most countries need an Army , unless you are some isolated Army in the middle of the Ocean ) There is no concensus exactly how to go from there

“Many boys stop being Frum in the army.”

Tragically, many become not frum and have never been within 100 miles of an army base.

A hugely larger portion of frum people joining the army become not frum R”L, than those who were frum and never within 100 miles of an army base who became not frum R”L.

ZD: There has not been alot of Torah written about running a government in a modern society, In fact almost none.

What was this in reference to?

The main reason the Poskim haven’t written extensively about running a modern government is probably because (a) it’s never been Nogea; there has never been anyone Frum (Read: Observant to Hashem and the Torah) in a governing position over Klal Yisroel; (b) Halacha may not permit running a modern day government.

Enough Torah has been written, however, about going to the Army.

“You are correct though that there is much room for improvement. The way to effect that is from within. Thus Rav Tau rebuked MK Smotrich for calling for guys to stop enlisting. The same goes for other areas of society. In fact, Rav Yaakov Ariel explicitly stated that it is a mitzva for those knowledgeable in both Halacha and secular law to become judges.”

Again, my point was not about what the response should be. I happen to disagree with you on that, but that wasn’t the point. My point was simply that the government is doing something wrong. Apparently you do agree with that point.

One’s disagreement with the way that people deal with the government should not blind them to the fact that the government is doing something wrong (by having an army that is not run according to halacha and drafting people to that army).

Yekke,
1. On the contrary, joining the IDF is avodat Hashem.
2. On the contrary, much has been written. The Tzitz Eliezer wrote a set called “Hilchot Medina”. Rav Herzog wrote several books. There have been many articles in “Techumin” and other Torah journals.

Lilmod, fighting our enemies is a Torah obligation. So is engaging in civilian rescue (e.g. people who get lost while on tyulim). While there is much that needs to be fixed (including in each one of us) there is much that is done according to Halacha. In fact, Rav Asher Weiss mentioned in several shiurim that he receievd questions from the IDF that were relevant to the shiur.

Avi K:1. On the contrary, joining the IDF is avodat Hashem.
2. On the contrary, much has been written. The Tzitz Eliezer wrote a set called “Hilchot Medina”. Rav Herzog wrote several books. There have been many articles in “Techumin” and other Torah journals.

Joining the IDF is most certainly not Avoidas Hashem. Do you think that something can be considered Rotzon Hashem if it involves putting oneself in a situation where adherence to Shulchan Aruch is impossible?

Civil disobedience is an acceptable form of protest in democracies, even when it entails disobeying civil law.

Avi K:
The Tzitz Eliezer wrote a set called “Hilchot Medina”

Yeah, in which he paskened that people should not leave yeshiva to go to the IDF. As was the opinion of R’ Kook, R’ Tzvi Pesach Frank, and R’ Moshe Feinstein, to name a few.

Attention Avi K (OK, and everyone else)

Also see:

Winning the struggle for religious rights in the IDF

zdad:
Please tell us what Posek allows for Genevas Zman for someone unrelated to the protest

Just out of curiosity, if I were to name you such a Posek, would you accept his ruling as a valid opinion which people have the right to follow?

I’m also curious if you can bring me a source that shows that there is a specific issur called “Genevas Zman”.

ZD – If someone came late to their chavrusa because there were pedestrians crossing on a crosswalk and they had to wait for them, you wouldn’t blame the pedestrians. If they were held up because there was a lot of unexpected traffic because of a Simcha, you wouldn’t blame the baalei hasimcha or the people attending the Simcha.

If you were late to a chavrusa because the streets were closed off because the President of the US was visiting, you wouldn’t blame the President. If the streets were closed off or blocked because of a Yom HaAtzmaut parade, you wouldn’t blame the people having the parade.

In Israel, protests/demonstrations are a normal, common, accepted practice, and they are held for all sorts of reasons by all types of people – left wing, right wing, secular, religious-zionists, and Chareidim.
This being the case, I am not sure that they are any different than any of the above examples. Of course, one must ask a sheilah since, as you correctly point out, there may be several halachic issues involved. But it is very possible and even likely that there are Gedolim/Rabbanim who allow and encourage demonstrations in certain cases. Therefore, there is no reason to assume that these boys did not ask a sheilah, and in fact, it may be assur to assume that they didn’t.

Yekke, I’m waiting for you to respond to that.

I’ve written an answer to your post three times and all three times I’ve deleted it.

Responding would defeat the purpose of thinking three times before I didn’t post.

ZD: “If you want a proper protest, go to the Beis Medrash and say Tehilim.”

Great idea – maybe you should follow it instead of protesting in the CR against the demonstrators.

Yekke2:

I’m a little late to this thread, and I somewhat regret that now.

I appreciate your recalcitrance, and your commensurate sensitivity. The calls for you to respond may be putting you between a rock and a hard place, but I think I agree with the view that this forum is hardly a platform for any form of protest, or unnecessary offence, if you see what I mean. I trust your judgement, which has proven exemplary thus far. Good luck…

Yekke – you had written that in response to something else, not to the particular post that I quoted.

I deliberately requoted it in response to your post. My position hasn’t changed.

Sorry, but I don’t think I can help with this one.

OK, I’ll say it.

Suffice to say that yekke2 would have almost certainly not said “Kol hakavod” to women serving in the IDF, due to the famous psak of the Chazon Ish that having women serve under the command of men (or vice versa) would fall into the category of אביזרהו דגילוי עריות, which is יהרוג ואל יעבור.

“Kol Hakavod” was referring to the fact that their spirituality wasn’t negatively affected in the army, not to anything else. This applies equally to anyone with the misfortune of being in a situation of nisayon.

But mw13 is spot on that I would not praise any women for any form of national service.

ubiq:
It is hypocritical when a group claims to believe that learning protects them so they dont need to serve (even in a non-military capacity). yet when faced with a “threat” (and it is hard to call having people register a threat) all of a sudden forget about learning, it is time to play in the street and inconvenience others

The Brisker Rov once asked why it is that on Channukah we fought the Yevanim in a physical battle, while on Purim we fasted and prayed. Why the different approaches? He answered that on Purim we were faced with physical annihilation, so we knew the only solution to that was in Hashem’s hand – we don’t control the world, He does. But on Channukah we faced a spiritual danger, and הכל בידי שמים חוץ מיראת שמים, so we had to take matters into our own hands and fight a physical battle to save our spiritual well-being.

(A quick caveat – just because I don’t believe the actions of Peleg Yerushalmi are hypocritical does not mean I support them. I follow the opinion of R’ Shteinman, R’ Chaim, and the vast majority of Rabbonim that these protests are only counter-productive, and that everyone should go get a deferment and go back to learning.)

MW, that is only guys who are really learning and a situation where they are not needed. However, if guys are just lolling about they should serve. If they have time toriot they are not learning at the proper level (Rav Tzvi Yehuda would not allow talmidim to lend their names to political discussions). Rav Nachman Kahana suggested a solution. Have exams at different stages. Those who pass get a deferment. Those who don’t don’t (and BTW, when they instituted exams in Lakewood many guys lost their stipends). Guys at the higher levels will give shiurim to soldiers. IMHO, they should show their lishma and concern for Klal Yisrael by dedicating their learning to the success of the IDF and saying the mishe berach for the soldiers and the state (I don’t see how anyone can object to asking Hashem to give our political leaders wisdom).

Yekke, I am proud of those girls. http://www.hebrewbooks.org/rambam.aspx?sefer=14&hilchos=83&perek=7&halocha=4&hilite=

(I was in BMG until recently, and no exams were ever instituted. Period. Just didn’t happen. I’ve said this to Avi K in the past when he first started with this false claim, but he just on repeating it like it’s Torah MiSinai.)

Yekke, I am proud of those girls.

So am I.