about the protest in yerushalaim

it’s a kind of lashon hara news for the people who are outraged by this. Lashon news is anything that really doesn’t matter but still generates bad feelings towards others. it sells papers

however, i believe these protests are a kiddush hashem. The gvt doesn’t need charedim in the army and the draft is an attempt to eradicated torah.

YWN is a news website, which means that it is their job to report news.

Bramo and Yekke2 – +1,000!

MTAB – whether they are in fact a Kiddush Hashem or not (I don’t know enough to comment on that), the way they are being reported is a Chillul Hashem.

bklynmom – that doesn’t make it permissible for it to be publicized this way.

bk613 – they hold that the government shouldn’t be drafting them in the first place. The government is certainly not acting correctly. The army is not run according to halacha. It should not be run that way in the first place, and certainly, those Jews who do follow halacha should not be drafted. No Gedolim disagree on those points, to my knowledge. As far as I know everyone agrees that the government is acting incorrectly; the only disagreement is regarding what our response should be.

I am not discussing whether or not we should judge them favorably since perhaps they are tinok shenishba, etc. I don’t want to get into that. I am not judging them – I am simply judging their actions. Their actions are clearly wrong.

In todays society with almost everyone having a smartphone with a video camera. Its not very hard for someone to video some of the protests, Post the video online and send the link to a news service.

Some of those news sources are very anti-torah and will use this news against the torah community as a whole.

Better to show this news on a torah site for people to read it there than read it on an anti-torah site.

You cannot expect news to be censored anymore. You cannot cover up things easily anymore

I wonder what percentage of those out protesting since Rosh chodesh are chutzniks with nothing better to do. An exciting day at the hafgana is way better than helping wherever you may be for the chag prepare.

ZD – even if what you are writing is true (which I’m not sure about, and a sheilah should certainly be asked), the way it was reported is problematic. For example, the headline, “Peleg enjoying Bein Hazmanim shutting roads down” was completely inappropriate!

What right do they have to say that they are enjoying it? Who says that they are not seriously distressed over the possibility of yiddishe kinder being forced or pressurred to stop being Frum and that they are not acting l’sheim Shamayim and following a Gadol who is their Rav? They are not doing this out of enjoyment, but rather out of distress and out of a desire to follow Daas Torah. You can disagree if you like, but you don’t have a right to criticize their motives and defame them that way!

One of the many conditions of lashon hora l’toeles is that you are not allowed to leave out information that would minimize the severity of the person’s actions.

If what you are writing is true, that would only be the case if they made sure to write the article in such a way that it explains why they are doing this and what other Gedolim say and why others disagree (but in a respectful intellectual fashion, not a negative name-calling one).

ZD – another point: many people do NOT own smartphones and do not view goyish news sites. For many people, this IS their only source of news. Personally, I fall in that category, and I only know about these demonstations from YWN. And yes, I live in Eretz Yisrael, and yet, I would have known nothing about this if not for YWN!!! (which goes to show that it may not be so necessary even for Jews in EY to know about this).

lesschumras – I’m sorry, but I think that you are the one lacking knowledge here. I have been living in Eretz Yisrael for nearly 3 decades so I am fairly familiar with the way the government and army work. All boys and girls who are Israeli citizens get drafted when they are 18.

If they have a reason for exemption or deferment, they have to obtain an exemption or a deferment. Yeshiva Bochurim get a deferment, not an exemption, and they have to go back each year to reregister until a certain age at which point they are exempt. During the years of the deferment, they are still subjagated to the army (since it’s a deferment and not an exemption), which means, for example, that they can not leave the country unless they request and obtain permission from the army/government, and even then, they can only leave for a set amount of time.

If I am incorrect about anything I wrote, it was semantics and irrelevant. It is possible that I was wrong in using the terminology “drafted”. I don’t think that I was, but if I was, it does not take away from anything I wrote in my above posts.

I just reread your post, and if what you wrote was correct, then I certainly did not err even regarding semantics. You yourself wrote that they would be considered “draft dodgers” if they didn’t register. That was precisely my point – that they are drafted unless they register. That is against halacha. According to halacha, no Jewish boy should be drafted into an army that does not keep halacha. That is assur. And by the way, this is true regardless of whether or not they are capable of learning full-time for many years.

“However, if I was living in Israel, I would have to decide between two very different options:
1) report to the draft office, receive a deferment, and go back to learning; or
2) go protest in the streets.”

Just curious. Why isnt there a 3rd option. Listen to “your” Rosh Yeshiva and dont register, get arrested if/when the army shows up. So far, to my (admittedly not the best informed) knowledge Nobody has said to go out into the streets, block traffic, burn garbage and engage in physical violence against the police and others. Civil disobedience is certainly common, but, at a certain point, the government must intervene when it creates hardship for many people.

LU

many people look to this website (YWN) for the torah view on news, Many arent even religious. It is well known

Maybe YWN is your only news source and you dont want to read it, but others are reading here and other news sources and want to know what is going on.

if a person is going to get their news from R’L Haaretz and their Anti-frum slant, wouldnt you also want them to get their news from the frum point of view

Israel is not a theocracy and never claimed to be bound by halacha.

LOL, so if I never claim to be law-abiding citizen, am I not bound by the law?

There is no opt-in or opt-out on God’s Laws. Everyone must keep them, regardless of what they “claim”.

You cannot have a halachic state at this time, Without a Sanhedrin it wouldnt work.

if Gadol A says something is mutar and Gadol B says Assur, whom do you follow. What is the law?

Yekke, is reporting what a gadol says (leaving aside the question of who is a gadol)lashon hara as regards those who have difficulties with the statements/follow other gedolim?

[I don’t profess to know Hilchos Loshon Horo properly, but my answer would be:] No, it’s not Loshon Horo. Like it is not ma’aras ayin to do something halachically permissible just because others who don’t know Halacha think it is assur. As long as it is presented without any additions which display negative opinions of the reporter. If you say it in a way that shows your contempt, that is loshon horo. Not because of the information repeated, but because of the opinion conveyed.

lesschumras- mw13 answered the second point very well.

Regarding the first point, I have already addressed this twice, but in case I wasn’t clear, I will try to explain for a third time. Israel is different than the US. In the US, there is not a national draft, and everyone is not drafted. In Israel, the law is that EVERYONE is required to go to the army unless they receive a deferment or an exemption. They have to apply for a deferment or an exemption in order to get out of going to the army. This is against halacha since they shouldn’t be required to go to the army in the first place and therefore shouldn’t have to request a deferment or an exemption from something they are not allowed to do in the first place.

It has always bothered me that girls (for whom it would be assur to go to the army no matter how the army is run) are required to apply for an exemption to the army based on RELIGIOUS reasons. Like, hello, we all have the same religion!!! They should not have get an exemption based on their religion if the government is a Jewish government!!! They should not be drafted in the first place and neither should boys. Both are assur!!! They should not need an exemption or a deferment for something that is assur and shouldn’t be a consideration.

Whether or not they are specifically told by the army that they are being drafted before they get the exemption or deferment is irrelevant because either way they know that they are and that they need to register in order to receive the deferment (which again is not an exemption). But in any case, I just realized that I know that they are. When my brother was 18, he was drafted by the army, and given 48 hours (it’s possible they extended it to 72, but it wasn’t more than that) to decide if he wanted to go or not.

And again, I think the main issue that Peleg is concerned about is the fact that the government did make a law removing army deferments and by registering, they are in danger of actually being drafted to the army (w/o a deferment) if the law is changed again.

Again, I am not talking about what the response should be. For that, one must ask a sheilah. I am also not judging the government. But the fact is that they are doing something assur, and one’s disagreement with Peleg should not blind one to the fact that the government is doing something wrong. People are so quick to judge other Frum Jews for the way they deal with a secular government that they forget that being a secular government in the first place is a bigger problem.

If you want to be “dan l’kaf zchus” the government (in the sense that they are confused and don’t realize this is a problem) that is wonderful, but don’t let that blind you to the fact that their actions are wrong.

And why not use the same “dan l’kaf zchus” powers towards Peleg as well? Aren’t they also Jews and don’t they also deserve to be judged favorably as well as a secular government that passes laws against the Torah?

“There is no opt-in or opt-out on God’s Laws.”

That is not the discussion here. What is under discussion is whether or not registering with the government and declaring that one is a full time Yeshiva student violates Hashems law in some way. One Rosh Yeshiva maintains it does, numerous others do not. Those who follow the rosh Yeshiva who says it is, the follow up discussion HERE is, is the massive disturbance to every day life allowed, suggested or recommended under Hashems law as well? Again and again, people have asked, did the Rosh Yeshiva tell his talmidim to go out in the streets and cause mayhem?

@MW13:However, if I was living in Israel, I would have to decide between two very different options:
1) report to the draft office, receive a deferment, and go back to learning; or
2) go protest in the streets.

Just out of curiosity, how would you go about making that decision?

I’ve never actually thought about it; to me, it’s always been an issue of not getting involved when Gedolim are fighting.

What would I actually do? I would ask my Rav shlit”a and my Rosh Yeshiva shlit”a, and follow their advice. I’m quite positive they would tell me to report and receive a deferment.

Option 2, which is “Go protest in the streets”, is something my Rebbes are extremely against – not necessarily because of the anti-violence sentiments expressed above, but for a totally different reason.

The Brisker Rav famously said that the Zionists are חשוד על רציחה. By extension, going to a public demonstration and declaring yourself an Anti-Zionist is Assur because of Pikuach Nefesh. You may think this is taking it a little far? Let me tell you a story. I heard this from R’ Zelig Weinberg shlit”a who heard it from Dayan Grossnass, who heard it from R’ Boruch Be’er Lebovitz direct (I can’t remember if Dayan Grossnass witnessed it or if he heard it from R’ B”B):

R’ Boruch Be’er was by a function, where they began singing Hatikva. All rose to pay tribute to the wonderful State. R’ Boruch Be’er also rose, and then sat down in the middle. They asked him why he stood up at all. He replied that although he obviously didn’t hold of the Zionist regime and would not rise to respect them, he stood up in accordance with the Brisker Rav – if they are חשוד על רציחה, then making a מחאה would be considered סכנת נפשות. He therefore stood up.

The reason he subsequently sat down is because he remembered something R’ Chaim had told him: HaTikva (and the Zionist ideology it represents) is אבוזרייהו דעבודה זרה. Accordingly, standing for it would be considered יהרוג ואל יעבור, and R’ Boruch Be’er was willing to place himself into Sakanah rather than show support.

(The Rosh Yeshiva of Gateshead – R’ Avrohom Gurvitz shlit”a – told me that he was by a dinner in Newcastle when the band began playing Hatikva, and the Gateshead Kollel representatives were unsure of whether to show their contempt or not. They asked R’ Dessler zt”l, who was sitting there, and he told them that because it was only the tune and not the words, they didn’t need to actively make a מחאה.)

Unfortunately, I am self admitted not on the level to be a proper מקבל from my Rebbes; I don’t feel a פחד מות when I walk past a Zionist policeman. My limited intellect does not fully understand the psak of the Brisker Rav. But a nevertheless try my best to follow the psak.

I have seen firsthand those who do take the Brisker Rav literally. My Yeshiva is right by Kikar Shabbos, and when there was a large [peaceful] demonstration on Shabbos afternoon, the police marched right past the yeshiva. I saw one of the Brisker Rav’s grandchildren leaving yeshiva, and when he saw the police, he grabbed his children and ran in the other direction, with an expression of pure panic on his face.

Apushatayid, suppose Rav Alef approves of the protests and Rav Bet says that they are assur. Suppose now that a police officer who follows Rav Bet arrests a protester who follows Rav Alef. Are they both right?

AviK. does protest = break the law? Are peaceful protests against the law? You are confusing several things, and quite frankly I believe you are confusing what I was trying to say. to avoid further confusion, I’m going to wait a bit to see where this goes.

yekke2:
The Brisker Rav famously said that the Zionists are חשוד על רציחה

True. And it’s always been a theory of mine that he took this position due to the DeHaan assassination. But still, it’s a big chiddush to say that we have to suspect every Israeli policeman is out to kill us. Perhaps this is li’shitasso that due to pikuach nefesh concerns we shouldn’t fast on fast days, a position not held by any of the other Poskim.

Apashutayid – you missed what that statement was said in response to. It was not in response to a discussion about whether or not registering with the government violates Hashem’s laws.

It was said as part of a discussion about whether or not the government is doing something wrong by having an army that does not run according to halacha. It had nothing to do with whether or not it’s okay to not register with the government.

Avi: ” Who says that they are not allowed to have a draft? On the contrary, it is a Torah obligation to join the IDF Rambam Hilchot Melachim (5:1-2 and 7:4).”

Having a draft for an army that is run according to the Torah might be okay. The problem is that the army is not run according to halacha so it is assur to draft people into an army that is not run according to halacha and in which they will be oiver on issurim.

AVi K: “Apushatayid, suppose Rav Alef approves of the protests and Rav Bet says that they are assur. Suppose now that a police officer who follows Rav Bet arrests a protester who follows Rav Alef. Are they both right?”

That would depend on whether or not Rav Bet said that he is allowed to arrest the protester.