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No one said Gimmel is against working people. Where do you get that from? (Remember I live in EY , am part of the Charadai community and even vote Gimmel)What they are against is going to the army because what goes on there is ??? (I have two brother in laws in the army, one of them in a charade unit)
Also most arabs are not against suicide bombers (read the PA school books and curriculum) and The dati Leumi movement is not judged but the price tag elements.
Please get your facts right
So what school district was created specifically to have a majority black demographic?
What they are against is going to the army because what goes on there is ??? (I have two brother in laws in the army, one of them in a charade unit)
Unfortunatly, that is not what they have communicated to the outside world (or the Israeli public). Let them come out and say “We are willing to go to the army as part of Nachal Charaidi (segregated with no Shmad, even L’Shitascha) at age 21”. (Wait, that is what the government is proposing).
Also most arabs are not against suicide bombers (read the PA school books and curriculum) and The dati Leumi movement is not judged but the price tag elements.
OK. Can’t argue with someone who believes everyone wants to blow him up. The settlers are judged that way, at least here in the states (I imagine the Charaidi world may not, due to their own issues with extremists as you point out).
GrowUpAlready: You only have to look at what you write to realize why so many people are pushing back and fighting the chareidi dictatortship. You write that what goes on in the army is “shmad”. Do you truly think that any sane person would even believe that outrageous and ridiculous accusation? You write that this is a “war against Torah”. The hyperbole is so “over the top” that even the ones who may be sympathetic to some of the chareidi arguments dismiss the chareidim as unreliable, unrealistic and impossible to deal with.
When you and the extreme chareidi leadership that you support would come down to this earth, maybe we could talk then! Till then, we shall try doing what we feel is right.
GAW and ROB
You REALLY have NO IDEA of what goes on here. even the nachal hacaradi is being forced to do thing against Halacha (again I have inside information from my brother in law)the promises made before joining the army are not kept to because when in the army we can change the rules whenever we want we don’t have to keep promises. The Rabbi who started the Nachal hacaradi has come out against it because promises are not kept! and BTW the hesder units have the same issues.
ROB I assume you too don’t live in Israel. When you move here and go to the army – we can talk again.
Grwo up Already: NO, I do not live in Israel now but there are seven million Jews living there- kein jirbu- and I just don’t believe for one moment that there are jackbooted soldiers going around israel making you eat chazzir or ordering you to smoke on shabbos or anything else you may say.I do not believe it for one moment. And quoting anonymous sources making vague accusations is no way of proving your point.
I doubt that hayalei tzahal are being “forced” to violate halakha. The army even goes out of their way to get Haredi kosher food for those who won’t accept normal kosher food.
ok you don’t have to believe me.
Halacha is not only things like eating chazzir. It is being forced to hear women singing and not being allowed to daven Mincha just because that is what the commander decided and yes being told to do things that are mechalal Shabbos (agreed the commander thought it wasn’t mechalal Shabbos but even when told he refused to budge). and no the army does not go out of the way to get mehadrin food. Many soldier in the nachal were stuck with nothing for Shabbos and when the charadaim from Kiryat Sefer got organized to get then food for Shabbos the commander decided they cannot take the food. (this story was in the charadi press at the time)
But then again I can’t make you believe something you don’t want to.
So, in a nutshell, the Zionists are up to shmad as they always have been (even if they do provide kosher food), and the MO and “Religious Zionists” are either in denial or worse about even the latest Zionist shmad, because the respective MO and RZ theologies require belief in Zionism as part of their faith.
As the Brisker Rov said, “The Zionists’ state is the Satan’s greatest achievement since the eigel”.
ROB- it appears that the fact that seven million jews, ken jirbu, living in EY is areason the army must be interested in allowing chayalim to keep mitzvos while on duty. you heard info from someone who’s BIL is in nachal chareidi, yet tou refuse to believe him. a guy in my shul grew up frum/yeshivish, and then went hardcore off the D. He still makes fun of bochurim and mocks RYs. he laughs about frum shtussim and denigrates black hatters. he was in nachal chareidi while he was totally anti religious, and he openly told the members of our shul that the way the army presents N’CH as an option for frum people is a joke. wake up. take your head out of the sand. maybe take off for a few weeks and check out what people look like after N”CH. or, better yet, move here, stop bluffing, and join the IDF. and stay frum.
Grow up Already, HaKatan:
Once again, that is not the argument that you are giving in the press. I believe you when you say being in the Army is hazardous to spiritual health (Why is an interesting question, and I have posted about it before (see: Rav Dessler & Chinuch)). According to you both, the argument the Charaidim should be advancing is that we are objectors to the Army/State because it forces us against our religion (and internationally, that is a better argument than “Torah protects us and them”).
P.S. to Grow Up: If even Nachal Charaidi is Shmad, what right do your BIL have to attend? They should have to move or kill themselves rather than attend.
” not being allowed to daven Mincha just because that is what the commander decided”
Actually, the halachah is that if your employer doesn’t give you the time off, it is asur to daven minchah! You can probably make it up with tashlumin; consult an IDF rav.
“being told to do things that are mechalal Shabbos”
IDF being mechalah Shabat in many if not most cases would be pikuach nefesh. We learned this one the hard way with the Maccabees as they originally decided not to fight on Shabat, and got massacred.
“the army does not go out of the way to get mehadrin food”
So eat the non-mehadrin food! When you are in the IDF you no longer follow the halachic rulings of the community you are from; you follow the IDF’s rulings. And you don’t call your former rav to ask whether you should obey an order.
That said, the IDF really should do more to respect the religious traditions of all soldiers. Even though many rabbis (including mine) are meikel on kol isha, there was no excuse for prohibiting frum soldiers from quietly excusing themselves when a female singer was performing. Ten minutes for a minchah minyan should rarely be an issue unless someone is shooting at us. And Rabbinut Mehadrin food is readily available throughout Israel; why can’t the IDF offer it? The IDF has well qualified Orthodox rabbis; why can’t it follow them?
Charlie:
I don’t concede your halachic opinions, but even if they are true, I agree with you that the more important point is as you make in your post, and I’ll embellish:
Don’t you think a govt that cared about its citizens and cared to allow them their religious observance, would make such reasonable accommodation within the context of a forced 3 year army service?
To the contrary, they try to make it hard to keep halacha there. When the kol isha issue came up–they made it a womens rights issue to force them to listen.
I think I reasonably do not believe that they are ready to accommodate us in the army in good faith.
Charlie- I think GUA’s post clearly indicates that the soldiers are forced to give up on religious practices based solely on the whims of a commanding officer.
Gavra,
Could be that is a better argument. It is being told to the press however they cut and paste as they see fit.
My brother in law is in Shacahr.(a unit for married charadi men who work in the army offices, not in the field, and go home at the end of the day and are home shabbosim) The nachel Charadai examples were all in the press and from friends of his. My brother in law would drop the army in a second if that is what Rav Steinman tells him to do so.
In the meantime anyone who asks him if they should join the Sachar unit he tells them no because of all the problems he has encountered and that is even before the current anti charadi theme.
Charliehill you write
“When you are in the IDF you no longer follow the halachic rulings of the community you are from; you follow the IDF’s rulings. And you don’t call your former rav to ask whether you should obey an order”
And is the ESSENCE of the issue at heart! Charadaim believe Torah and what their Rav says come first not what the army says…..
And the US has the same rules. A frum person got in trouble for not taking off his yarmulka and SCOTUS ruled against him.
Should we now protest the US Armed Forces?
anti semites bec they r jewishjews r the worst jew haters
Charlie, your positions seem very difficult to understand, though I will limit my comments to a few of those. Presumably, you arrived at these strange ideas because of MO/RZ’s blasphemous merger of Zionism and lihavdil Judaism.
Pirkei Avos says “Asei Licha Rav”. It does not say to allow the IDF to replace or supersede your Rav.
Regarding Chilul Shabbos, even “Religious Zionist” Rabbanim, never mind the IDF, have made psakim regarding chilul Shabbos and pikuach nefesh than have been roundly condemned by great rabbis outside Zionist circles.
GAA, when you’re in the army, you can’t follow your own personal chumrahs.
truthsharer:
There are a number of differences between the IDF and, lihavdil, any other army including the US army.
One key difference is that the IDF is mandatory. So if they are requiring everyone to serve, then they have to reasonably accommodate everyone’s religious beliefs.
Another key difference is that Israel lies that it is a “Jewish State”. So, to make that lie more believable to the uninformed, they should be accommodating religious Jews (of all stripes).
But Israel is a Zionist state, not a Jewish state. And Zionism is shmad. See above.
Grow up Already, Toi and others: from the items that you mention , you can see how ludicrous the uncompromising stand of some chareidis is. Charlehall wrote eloquently abou the (non) halachic issues that you mention, Not only are they insignificant (no mincah on time? hsve you learned hilchos krias sheam and wha the Poalim do?)but they are in total contrast to the truth (how many photos do we have of jews davening in talis and tefillin even as they are preparing for battle?). You bring up the non-mehadrim food- well, which hechsher are you talking about? Badatz? Chassam Sofer? Agudah? And can’t you even eat cheese, eggs, bread? Preposterous.
Anyway- I am not here to go through the whole litany of arguments. Can there be improvement? Of course! But, until the chareidim show that they are part and parcel of the population and shoulder their responsiblities, why should the rest of the tsibbur bent over backwards-as they will be kickied in the teeth anyway?
On kol isha, the psak of Rav David Bigman, Hakham Avraham Shammah, and quite a few others is that kol isha is entirely contextual.
When you are in the IDF you no longer follow the halachic rulings of the community you are from; you follow the IDF’s rulings. And you don’t call your former rav to ask whether you should obey an order.
You’ve just made a better case for not joining the army than I ever could have.
I didn’t know that adherence to Halacha = “ludicrous”
And yes Halacha is uncompromising.
rebdoniel, you can also add the Seridei Aish to the kol isha ruling.
DY, halacha and chumrah do not mean the same thing.
GAA, not necessarily in this case, but I wouldn’t say halacha is uncompromising. That’s very black and white, and not true.
DY, halacha and chumrah do not mean the same thing.
Of course not, but that has little to do with the discussion.
No matter your halachic opinions, it is way out of line for someone to be forced to change from whom he seeks halachic guidance because it’s inconvenient.
And Rav Soloveitchik.
Grow up Already: I did not say that adherence to halacha is “ludicrous”. Please don’t misrepresent my posts. I said that “the uncompromising stand of the chareidim” is ludicrous. And I illusrated it by showing how extreme some of these positions are. Lastly, What do you mean by “halacha” is uncompromising? No attempt to be “meikel”? (koach de-hetira odif) No attempt to have a “pshoro” (compromise)? No attempt to find a way that thr tsibbur can live with something? (“gezeirah sh’eim hatsibbur jochoim la-amod bo). Your comments are ludicrous.
No attempt to be “meikel”? (koach de-hetira odif)
Do you have a source for your understanding of koach d’heteira odif?
DaasYochid: See “Bei-t-zah” 2b in Rashi for a very succinct explanation and this klal is mentioned many other times in Shas.
ROB- i hear, so pictures are more convincing then first hand testimony of what the army allows/forces people to do. thats ridiculous. zionist propaganda machine.
TOI: “eineh domeh shemiah leri-ah”
ROB- are you high? the idf lets you see pictures to enforce the way they want you to perceive them. first hand testimony is what they dont want you to hear. dumb dumb.
Toi- In general, I would not continue this fruitless argument but I’ll do it once more: You don’t think there are tens of thousands-probably hundreds of thousands- of good jews who were perfectly well treated in the Israeli army? You think that the IDF sends around hundreds of photographers who then fake those pictures? So, that you do not believe but the testimony of one solitary voice who may have encountered an isolated case of intolerance -that paints the whole IDF as evil? Sorry, I don’t buy it.
No, i dont think so. i think the army systematically, and quite efficiently, i may add, attempts to quash any real keeping of the jewish faith under the jackboot of the idf sellout rabbis. they have a photography unit, for crying out loud. its not one voice, its the voice of those who are ill-treated and still want to fight for religion, not jewish-esque culture. they dont care about judasim. newsflash. they care about zionism. two separate things.
Toi- You have just perfectly illustrated why anti-zionists and extreme chareidim have engendered so much opposition to their views and stands. Your description of the the IDF is more thsn a caricature, it is a total fabrication. And I think it is scandalous that you even mention the word “jackboot”. Vehamivein jovin.
ROB, that’s what I thought, you don’t have one.
You are learning p’shat in Rash”i wrong. It says it’s easier to be machmir, which is actually a raya that one must do so when in doubt.
Truthsharer: The S’ridei Eish’s Heter (which is actually R’ Ezriel Hildesheimer TZ”L’s Heter) would not have applied in the army situation.
Rob- ya whatever, jovin vijovin. youre saying this from who’s perspective? o right, someone who’s never even seen any of this firsthand. you and your ilk are dangerous to the perpetuation of yiddishkeit, putting zionism and tank units before torah and halachah.
DaasYochid: ?????????????????????
Koach d’heteira odif is in no way license to be meikil.
Toi: WHATEVER.
DaasYochid: No one is saying anything about a licence to be meikel. What the gemoro clearly indicates is that-if you can find a way to be meikel- you should. THAT is the explanation of “koach deheteirah odif”.
No, it’s not. That’s a distortion of the gemara’s intent.
DaasYochid; Tell me how YOU learn this klal.
rob: Koach D’heteira Adif means it’s easier to be Machmir than Meikel. Hence, we have a right to assume, in certain cases, that the Meikel one is more sure of his opinion. It in no way means to look for Kulos. You’re just wrong here.
DaasYochid: And, if you still maintain wahtever explanation you concoct, please look at Pesochim 74B and the machlokes Ravinah and Rav Acha and you will see- clear as day- that the gemoro paskens “lekuloh” when possible.
ROB: It’s true that, in certain cases, the Gemara Paskens L’kula. The reason for that is what I said. And it still applies in certain cases nowadays. But that doesn’t mean you search for Kulos.
rob: For example, the Gemara has a K’lal that when all else is equal you have to go L’chumra. (I don’t remember where it is but the phrase is L’kula Ul’chumra L’chumra Makshinan.)
if you still maintain wahtever explanation you concoct
The gemara means exactly what Sam2 said it does.
Do you really think I was saying that the rule is we are always machmir? You can’t bring proof from specific cases in which we are meikil; of course we are sometimes meikil. We are also sometimes machmir.
Bringing “koach d’heteira odif” to support being meikil in general is wrong, and dangerous. In fact, as Sam and I have pointed out, that gemara actually indicates that unless one is certain of his position, he must be machmir.
Sam2 and DaasYochid: Please!!!
“koach deheteira odif” means exactly what it says (and Rashi says it explicitly): it is very easy to be ‘machmir’: just say no. However, to be able to be ‘meikel” (and allow something), you need more sources and more understanding and (as Rashi says) you are not AFRAID to be meikel! Hence, the reasoning behind a hetter is more authoritative. And the gemoro calls it “ODIF”-stronger and better! Please do not twist the gemoro and Rashi to your wishes!!
And please, check Pesochim 74B (that neither of you mentions) and you will see again that the gemoro DOES pasken “lekuloh”, rather than “lechumro”.
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