A word on judging Judgement

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  • September 16, 2013 11:41 pm at 11:41 pm #610666
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Mipi Elyon Lo Tetze Hara’os. Chazal use that literally. There is a cause and effect built into the world. Tzaros happen in the form of Siluk Hashgacha. I lost faith because of the holocaust — in the inhabitants of Earth, the perpetrators and the bystanders. ?????? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ???.

    We don’t know the exact reasons for what happens. We didn’t sit in on the deliberations. But we look at overriding factors that were probably discussed and obviously weighed heavily. This is what Chazal did on the aftermath of a tragedy. Hashem’s judgement is complex. When a Navi forewarns about it for years it sounds obvious but when it hits suddenly out of the blue it is hard to back-engineer what went wrong.

    Chazal tell us that when permission is given to the Midas Hadin it doesn’t differentiate between the Tzaddikim and the Resha’im. The Resha’im bring it on but the Tzaddikim get burned first. This world is, after all, a world of Teva and uncertainty. It is run with a system, or many systems. Nonetheless, certain Tzadikim can withstand even this. As it says in Yechezkel: Noach, Iyov, Daniel. Others are judged for very minor infractions, including Bittul Assei.

    When we look in Nach we see both: it is a judgement from Hashem, and an act of Nevuchadnetzar. There wasn’t an attitude toward Nevuchadnetzar of, Oh it was Bashert.

    September 17, 2013 12:44 am at 12:44 am #975396
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    See this for somewhat of an elaboration of the Teva system concept:

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/gemara-question#post-465369

    September 17, 2013 12:57 am at 12:57 am #975397
    Sam2
    Participant

    “Chazal tell us that when permission is given to the Midas Hadin it doesn’t differentiate between the Tzaddikim and the Resha’im. The Resha’im bring it on but the Tzaddikim get burned first.”

    Makor for this claim please? It feels like it’s against a Passuk.

    September 17, 2013 1:18 am at 1:18 am #975398
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    First part is what it says about Makas Bechoros. Second part is from Bava Kama in Hakones on Umatza Kotzim Venechal Gadish. I mentioned the minor infraction of what the Malach told Rav Ketina, as an explanation that it is not completely random. It’s just that a minor infraction is enough not to let the Tzaddik stand out.

    September 17, 2013 3:02 am at 3:02 am #975399
    E-O-M
    Participant

    HaLeivi- since you seem to have a good hashkaphic handle… Care to try and answer two questions of mine?

    1- if g-d exists above time, does olam habah also exist above time? Since it is the eternal world? If so, how does the present moment compare relative to all of history from the shamayim perspective?

    2- since g-d is all good and nothing can be without his will, how can evil and impurity exist? Meaning g-d would need to have willed the evil or impurity into existence which conflicts with his chessed.

    September 17, 2013 3:50 am at 3:50 am #975400
    Anonymous1000
    Participant

    E-O-M

    2- In order to provide us with the most good Hashem set up a system where we would be able to choose it. For this to work He gave us the ability to choose evil. Hashem wants us to choose good and He knows we wont always do that. However in His infinite wisdom He determined that creating the world as it is, is for the ultimate good even if bad things happen. Basically, one approach is that Hashem lets bad things happen for the sake of the ultimate good.

    In kabala there is a concept of Hashem retracting Himself somehow in order to create the world (whatever that means).

    September 17, 2013 4:54 am at 4:54 am #975401
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    One way I try to visualize this interaction is by comparing time to space. If the universe is the surface of a table and you are outside of the table, you can look at any point and be aware of what is before that point and what is after. From the perspective of the point itself it can’t be aware of the points following it, since it is within the surface.

    I don’t know how clear this is, but it is a fun topic to ponder when you are alone and in the mood of pondering.

    As for your second question, if the issue really intrigues you it pays to seriously learn through some Ramchal (Derech Hashem, Daas Tvunos etc.) and other Hashkafa Sefarim. Anonymous1000’s answer is true, but still, a short summary of a deep topic doesn’t do justice to the concept.

    September 17, 2013 1:03 pm at 1:03 pm #975402
    E-O-M
    Participant

    Thanks for the answers- If you could be so kind- I would like specific locations for ramhal discussing these matters as I’m not the biggest lamdan (I am a busy business man) but i enjoy that kind of reading when I have some free time…

    Question 1- I can grasp that gd is above time, but do all things spiritual like olam haba and Angels exist on this same plane? I can wrap my mind around the fact that time is a thing created by gd as part of the physical system- my question is – Does the current present time hold an elevated platform (or spotlight if you will) in shamayim? I just feel like the present has to be somehow elevated above the past and future simply because of all the stories and midrashim that use time relative to shamayim (I.e. there are plenty of stories in tanach where the mefarshim or midrash says – at that moment, when so and so did such and such, g-d did such and such) clearly illustrating that time and sequence of events plays some role up there.::

    Question 2- so if all bad is always really for the greater good, then that’s a good standard answer. But are we going to go so far as to say that gd created a system where sins that the Torah considers abominable (erva, avoda Zara) can take place with not only his knowledge but despite his disapproval he has to “will” the evil into existence if man should choose to commit evil? Does this count as part of the same answer- there needs to be sin the the world in order for there to be mitzvot, for reward to exist, punishment must exist too, so gd is actually doing us a chessed by allowing sin to take place because it sets the stage for choosing good over evil.

    So if the above is true, my next question is does the yetzer hara have full control over evil, and gd “stays out of it”? I have a hard time believing that gd could stay out of anything since he is everything.

    September 17, 2013 6:42 pm at 6:42 pm #975403
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Time means change. Hashem doesn’t change and so He is not within time. When it says what Hashem did, even when it sounds like an emotion, it is referring to the manner in which He related to us at that moment. Hashem Himself doesn’t have different moods. Chazal say that at the Yam Suf Hashem appeared like a young worrier, and at Har Sinai He appeared like an elder teaching Torah. It is about what He is doing, not about what happened to Him.

    If you take my example of space further it explains this as well. You can be outside of an area and reach into a certain spot and affect a specific point, all while remaining outside. Hashem is eternal but He does deal with the world that exists within the frame work of time. This would mean that toward a certain time He acts a certain way.

    He always acts that way toward that time.

    September 17, 2013 6:54 pm at 6:54 pm #975404
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    When we speak of us being within time and Hashem being without, this means that we are actually made from time. My current self is a product of all the changes leading up to ‘now’. Now is only an ingredient of tomorrow’s ‘now’. This is all part of one large existence.

    Malachim are created. Therefore, by definition they have time, since there is a before they were created, an after they’re gone, and the present. The Maharal in Drasha Leshabbos Hagadol explains, though, that their concept of time is different than ours — since we are much more based on changes. They don’t live under today and tomorrow but there is a basic concept of time.

    September 17, 2013 7:13 pm at 7:13 pm #975405
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    So if the above is true, my next question is does the yetzer hara have full control over evil, and gd “stays out of it”? I have a hard time believing that gd could stay out of anything since he is everything.

    That’s a wonderful point. There are different mechanisms at play. The substance of the universe is Maamar Hashem. The ability for evil to be played out is set up by Hashem as well. Evil itself is messing with good. It is not an existence all its own. Just like a lie is about true components applied wrongly. I can only lie with a true type of act about a true person. Otherwise, it is a double negative.

    Chazal say that when Hashem said that the world was Tov Me’od it was referring to the Yetzer Hara. The invention of a Yetzer Hara is a great one. Following his advice is not great. Man committed the evil.

    The bulk of Daas Tevunos focuses on explaining the role of evil. He takes it further than being a reason for reward. It will eventually serve to contrast the true and everlasting good.

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