A Woman's Place in Frum Society

gavra, the position you attribute to the RY of Lakewood is incorrect. (It is at best only half correct in what their position is.) Also see the third comment made by a poster on this thread, a point you haven’t acknowledged.

tickle toe eitus:

gavra, the position you attribute to the RY of Lakewood is incorrect.

OK, so what is their position? Any quotes (not Boich Svaras, once again). Why do they promote women working out of the home?

Also see the third comment made by a poster on this thread, a point you haven’t acknowledged.

Kol Kavod Bas Melech is Halacha, and we have dealt with it many times here in the CR. I have nothing to add to that point.

My question to you though, is does it apply now (either at all, or with the alternative being taking Tzedaka).

“A woman’s place is at home.”

I wonder what every female who teaches in every pre school, elementary school, high school and seminary has to say about this? Once we have their response, we can then ask every married woman who works in a Yeshiva office what their reply is. We can then ask every Yeshiva administrator who employs married women in his yeshiva office what their answer is, or perhaps we can ask the Roshei Yeshiva of these very same yeshivos what their reply is.

Who cares wha the hamon hoam’s reply is? We know what Shulchan Aruch says. The fact their are extenuating circumstances that unfortunately make women leave their home, does not make it anywhere near the ideal.

Please a) quote the shulchan aruch that is relevant here and b)apparently these extenuating circumstances are legitimate enough that despite whatever shulchan aruch you might quote Roshei Yeshiva are willing to not only look the other way, but actively employ these women for their own offices.

There shouldn’t be female doctors, nurses, therapists, teachers, salesladies. All poffessions and all kinds of employment should be filled by men. Even women’s clothing stores should be run by men.

And why limit it only to work? Grocery shopping should be done by men. They should even put their kids on the buses, because women cannot be out on the street. Doctors appointments, you guessed it. Men have to take care of that too. Shopping for clothing and shoe for women and children ought to be done by men too. Of course the women won’t need much clothing, since they will always be indoors. And oh, yes! what about simchas? Bar mitzvahs is no problem. It will be all male affair, but what about chasunahs?

And oh, what an ideal world!! Your wife is depressed because she locked up inside the whole day? Just explain that this is the way the Torah wants and her disatisfaction is just the yetzer hara in the form of feminism.

gavra: does SA say not to take tzedaka? SA says they shouldn’t go out the house much. It’s obvious from SA to rather take tzedaka than go out.

apy: The CC’s store was in the back of his house. She didn’t have to go out. And the SA is 73:1.

apushatayid: Your right! I can’t answer your question as I do not know the parameters of how a ????, especially one of the stature of a ??? ???? paskens. The wife of the ???? ??? ran a business as well. However I think it very disrespectful to label these holy women feminist.

The store was not located within the confines of his small home. No, he wasn’t in the real estate business, he rented the property ?. The people of Radin DID know that he and his wife owned the store, and that is why people flocked to his store, in order of hoping to catch a glimpse of him. A ????? ?????? ????.

Sam2: All I know is that it is far from true that the Chofetz Chaim only entered his store to check the weights.

I brought down my source, you can’t. “All I know” is not an answer. Which leaves me with one conclusion. You made it up!

End of subject!

Actually I also heard the story that the Chofetz Chaim’s wife ran the store and when the entire community heard who ran that store they all wanted to shop there and he had it only opened for as much time as needed for his basic living expenses

This thread is entertaining.

Chanie: There are many stories told both secondhand and by those who met him about times when they bought stuff directly from him in the shop. And ArtScroll Gedolim books are not a source. They are amazing compendia of inspiring and uplifting stories, not historical facts.

Sam2: In theory you are correct. As someone who is privy to the inner workings of Artscroll, I can tell you with certainty that when they come out with a biography of someone, they will only print stories about that person that is historically true. My husband knew 2 Gedolim who are no longer alive who learned by the Chofetz Chaim and/or Rav Elchonon Wasserman, and were there ???? ????, and they in turn told their son’s the stories, or confirmed their veracity. In fact, when “The Vilna Gaon” came out years ago, I personally spoke to the author and asked if all the stories are factual. He replied, “I only print material that is verifiable through either Seforim on him, or stories that were handed down from his talmidim though today”. He continued, “If I were to write all the unverifiable stories, and legends, the book would have 3 times the pages”!

I will tell you a story that my father in law tells about the time in the late 1950’s when he learnt in Bais Medrash Elyon.

There was a friendly argument between the Litvishe and Chasidishe bochrim on which is the more choshuv aliya, ????? or ???. They decided to ask a grandson of the Chofetz Chaim who learned there which aliya his grandfather took. After much deliberation he said I think ?????. The Litvishe were estatic until one Chasidishe bochur asked; “Wasn’t your grandfather a ???”?

Everyone is entitled to his/her opinion, and can believe what they wish. It’s not one of the Rambam’s ???? ??? ?????.

A ????? ?????? ????

Ive read Art Scroll Biographies and regular biographies and the art scroll are not written in the same way. There may be historical license as opposed to fact with them.

Pretty much all say the same………..

At 3 years old when everyone else was learning Alef Bais, the Gadol had already finished Chumash

At 10 years old everyone saw the Gadol was an Iluy and he finished SHAS for the first times

At 13 years old the Rosh Yehsiva gave the gadol Semicha and learned Chavursa with him and at 18, the Rosh Yeshiva gave the gadol his daughter for marriage.

zahavasdad;

Not to worry. If and when they write your biography they will not say…..

At 3 years old when everyone else was learning Alef Bais, Zahavasdad had already finished Chumash

At 10 years old everyone saw the Zahavasdad was an Iluy and he finished SHAS for the first times

At 13 years old the Rosh Yehsiva gave the Zahavasdad Semicha and learned Chavursa with him and at 18, the Rosh Yeshiva gave the Zahavasdad his daughter for marriage.

In all seriousness, my husbands Rosh Yeshiva once gave a schmuess and he stated that he is not impress by this one or that one who was born with a photographic memory and accomplished such and such. What made an impression on him was a masmid of average intelligence who worked his way up to becoming a Godol in Torah and middos.

soliek -“she shouldnt…her husband should either get a job…or make arrangements”

Most Naarish a thing I ever heard. Let’s say the husband gets a job and they still can’t make ends meet? Of course the woman should work. If you said she should preferably work from in the house as opposed to working in the street, this I would agree. But you said she shouldn’t work at all. This is K’neged Chazal whom in many places say a woman is Mechuyav to work. Do you know the definition of Masay Yodeha? They even say she is Mechuyav to work, even if the family doesn’t need the money because of Batolla Mayve L’yehday Shemum! In this case she can do some minor work at home. Having to work in the street is not a Patur to not work at all, if she can’t do a Parnossa from the home.

“It’s obvious from SA to rather take tzedaka than go out.”

This is implied in 73:1?

73:6 (Siman Vav) clearly contradicts this. Of course a woman has a right to be mochel any “rights” guaranteed by her kesuba, and I suppose the children can be mochel whatever support the father is obligated in too, but the question then becomes, should the wife/mother become the breadwinner (which 73:1 comment of the Tur surely would not be happy with, I think) or should the family rely on tzedaka? You have paskened take tzedaka. What is your source for this psak?

There is nothing in SA that says 73:1’s admonitions for her to not go outside (Rambam says once or twice a month is good but SA just says not too much) becomes inapplicable if she otherwise will accept tzedaka.

shmoel -“becomes inapplicable if she otherwise will accept tzedaka.”

“It’s obvious from SA to rather take tzedaka than go out.”

Stop with the mind playing. There is a big difference between willing to take Tzedaka and having to take Tzedaka in order not to go out. Why can’t you just admit your first statement is wrong?

The Rambam also writes she shouldn’t be a prisoner in her home. Therefore, writes the Rambam, her husband should allow her to visit her father, etc. once or twice a month. Like gavra wrote, the halacha is based on Kol Kevuda Bas Melech Penima.

The question is not one of “why”, rather one of practical application.