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May 17, 2009 6:01 pm at 6:01 pm #589788I can only tryMember
What do you think?
1) Yes
2) No
3) Undecided
4) Depends on…
What issues is your decision based on?
(so as not to affect any answer, I’m not listing my preference just yet)
May 17, 2009 6:14 pm at 6:14 pm #672727chaverimMemberBloomberg for sure since he is the lesser of the evils, as any of the Dems would be far far worse than him. Not to say that Bloomberg has been too bad anyways.
May 18, 2009 5:02 am at 5:02 am #672729JaxMemberICOT: 3) Undecided
who’s else is in the running for mayor?!
May 18, 2009 5:31 pm at 5:31 pm #672730mepalMemberI’d really rather not vote Bloomberg but first ya gotta check out whom he’s running against.
May 18, 2009 8:08 pm at 8:08 pm #672731areivimzehlazehParticipantwas he that bad?
May 19, 2009 5:34 pm at 5:34 pm #672732mepalMemberWell, he’s a filthy rich bachler who has a hard time understanding me & you middle class kind of people. Check out what he plans on doing about the economic crisis and YOU determine whether he’ll be good for us or not. But like I said, I have to know who he’s running against to know whom to vote for.
May 19, 2009 5:50 pm at 5:50 pm #672733squeakParticipantPeople of NYC have short memories, or don’t you remember his first year in office? We called him Mike Taxberg then, because every tax that exists in NY was raised shortly after his election. From the 25% property tax increase, to the huge increases in parking fines (and meter maids to hand them out), to the increase in State sales tax that he was instrumental in bringing about.
Well, he’s a smart guy and he did the nasty stuff pretty early on, so he was able to live down the nickname of Taxberg in time to get reelected. But now he wants the sales tax to go up again, and who knows what else he will pick on if you reelect him – because he will have nothing to lose.
The only people whom he spared from taxes are the real estate developers. So the next time you see a 50 story high-rise building in Manhattan that is full of rich yuppies who paid $1-$2 Million+ for their loft/duplex/penthouse and who are straining the natural resources of NYC (think of your water bill now), realize that they and the guy who put up that building are living in a tax haven and the lost revenue is coming out of your pockets when he raises taxes. </rant>
But what do I care, anymore? 😉
May 19, 2009 6:07 pm at 6:07 pm #672734areivimzehlazehParticipantyeah squeak- you’re not in NY anymore, so why do you bother?
May 19, 2009 6:58 pm at 6:58 pm #672735mepalMemberSo, who’s he running against? Anyone?
May 21, 2009 12:59 am at 12:59 am #672736I can only tryMemberMayor Bloomberg has been a decent if unspectacular mayor.
I would say that his major accomplishments are:
1) Mayoral control of schools. The public school system is clearly better than it was before he took over.
What he did with term limits is the deal-breaker for me.
Mayor Giuliani, who was an excellent mayor (remember the chaos he inherited from Mayor Dinkins and how he turned it around), and had a great reason to have his term extended (a continuation of the leadership he showed after the 9/11 terrorist attacks), and clearly would have won a landslide victory had he been able to run again was forced to leave office by the term limits law.
Now that he is in office, he strong-armed, and in some cases bribed (not illegally) several council members who originally would have voted to retain term limits into extending the limits to include a third term.
In summary I select options:
2) No
…and…
4) Depends on…
If anyone actually read this all the way thru, Thank you 🙂
May 21, 2009 1:09 am at 1:09 am #672737I can only tryMemberModerator-
I omitted two key sentences from my earlier post.
Please (assuming you approve the earlier post) insert the following two sentences right before “One of the worst perversions…”
Thank you.
May 21, 2009 3:19 pm at 3:19 pm #672738squeakParticipantICOT, it’s a good thing that you omitted those two sentences. Ideally you are correct, but in practice it is no longer so.
May 21, 2009 4:05 pm at 4:05 pm #672739chaverimMemberi can only try: None of Bloomy’s possible major opposition candidates are good, and in fact are all a lot worse than Bloomy. You already know the handful of candidates who have a real chance to be the democrat nominee. Do you think ANY of them are ANY good?? I think definitely not.
May 21, 2009 4:11 pm at 4:11 pm #672740mepalMemberchaverim, care to be more specific? Do you know who’s running?
May 21, 2009 4:44 pm at 4:44 pm #672741moti107MemberYou all remember how he got in to office in the first place, it was “MONEY” and now the only reason he was able to push for a third term is also “MONEY” regarding his opponent, why should a normal human being run against a man who has resources to spend $15,000,000,000 with a “B” and flood you out via TV the last couple of weeks of the campaign, Remember Mark Green?
May 21, 2009 4:45 pm at 4:45 pm #672742chaverimMembermepal, icot mentioned some of the names – like weiner (who would like to be schumer), and thompson, both highly unqualified to be mayor. One of those 2 will almost definitely be the democrat candidate.
May 21, 2009 5:21 pm at 5:21 pm #672743I can only tryMembersqueak-
Nonetheless, the law itself is not different for them than it is for the average person.
chaverim-
mepal-
moti107-
Mark Green would have been the Mayor if not for the 9/11 attacks.
Why did he change his mind?
Lauder has agreed to stay out of the expected legal battle over term limits in exchange for a guaranteed spot on an influential city board that would put the matter to the voters in 2010, officials said. (NY Daily News)
In other words, Lauder would make an exception for Bloomberg only.
In return, Lauder would have power to revert the law to what it was.
Illegal? No.
Realistically, Mayor Bloomberg is a shoo-in for a third term.
The way he has manipulated the system into getting it is what makes it so wrong.
To “borrow” “squeak”s concluding line:
</rant><rant></rant></rant></rant>
May 21, 2009 5:32 pm at 5:32 pm #672744mepalMemberThanks for explaining, ICOT.
May 21, 2009 5:35 pm at 5:35 pm #672745chaverimMembericot, gotta disagree w/one point you made. Clinton would never have one a 3rd term — in face even Gore blamed HIS loss due to his association with Clinton (as Clinton’s Veep) due to all the horrible personal things Clinton did.
I also think that it was good to allow bloomy to run again since otherwise the Democrat whoever it would’ve been would’ve been a shoo-in. And we all now what problems the city always has under democrat mayors.
May 21, 2009 5:44 pm at 5:44 pm #672746proud tattyMemberBloomberg has a LOT of chutzpa going for a 3rd term. He was only elected since Guiliani turned down a 3rd term out of respect for the law. Guiliani would have run away with the post 9/11 election. Yet he said law was law, vote Bloomberg, now the law that got Bloomberg elected gets shredded since it is now in his way.
Shame
May 21, 2009 5:57 pm at 5:57 pm #672747I can only tryMemberchaverim-
Those who voted for Gore largely did so on an intellectual level, while they would have voted for Clinton on the emotional gut-level.
May 21, 2009 6:12 pm at 6:12 pm #672748I can only tryMembermepal-
My pleasure.
chaverim-
(all grades subjective, of course)
October 18, 2009 2:14 pm at 2:14 pm #672749I can only tryMemberRegardless of my feelings re: the term-limits issue, voting an unknown whose competency is questionable into office would be cutting off our nose to spite our face.
This may be unfair to Bill Thompson, but the last time New Yorkers were fed up with an incumbent mayor and voted an unknown into office we ended up with David Dinkins.
October 18, 2009 2:16 pm at 2:16 pm #672750JosephParticipantICOT: How do you believe we can constitutionally remove the unfair advantage the rich have?
October 18, 2009 2:25 pm at 2:25 pm #672751I can only tryMemberJoseph-
By allowing unlimited campaign contributions from individuals.
The reason this is not allowed is due to the fear of unsavory characters or companies making large contributions and having undue influence.
This can be addressed by mandating that all contributions must be publicly declared before the money is used. For instance, imagine the political hay that can be made by someone who can say “my opponent took $1,000,000 from Phillip Morris”.
I question the constitutionality of many campaign finance laws currently in place, including McCain – Feingold.
October 18, 2009 2:43 pm at 2:43 pm #672752JosephParticipantI don’t see how “campaign contributions” differ from bribery. The “donors”, especially corporations or unions, have ulterior not altruistic motives when donating. IOW, I think ALL so-called contributions to campaigns should be outlawed as bribery.
October 18, 2009 3:30 pm at 3:30 pm #672753NY MomMemberJoseph: Outlawing campaign contributions would, by that very fact, give rich candidates the upper hand. There would be no way for poorer candidates to compete in the publicity dept., which is a major factor in winning elections.
Also, regarding the constitutionality of McCain-Feingold, there is a strong argument to be made that it is curtailing our freedom of speech.
From Wikipedia on Campaign Finance Reform: Most opponents claim that CFR infringes on free speech and violates First Amendment rights. The argument is that the purpose of the free speech clause of the First Amendment is the guarantee that people have the right to publish their political views. Under this view, when the laws prohibit people from advocating for or against political candidates by restricting the content or the amount of political advertising, the laws are in conflict with the constitutional guarantee of freedom of political speech.
There also other criticism of CFR in McCain-Feingold: In addition, many opponents point out that campaign finance regulations are excessively complicated. This, they say, prevents ordinary citizens from participating in the election process (especially from running for office) and limits participation to a wealthy elite who can afford the legal apparatus necessary to run. In modern campaigns, legal and accounting expenses are significant percentage of the overall budget. Opponents also claim that excessively complicated rules discourage participation more generally by dissuading people from even attempting political work or activism.
Personally, I think John McCain’s own law limited his chances to win the 2008 election, unintentionally of course.
October 18, 2009 4:19 pm at 4:19 pm #672754JosephParticipantI agree that by itself outlawing campaign contributions would help rich candidates. Nevertheless the evil of campaign contributions, IMHO, is far greater than any other “legal” campaign issue.
I would in addition to outlawing campaign contributions, provide each candidate free broadcast time. The Federal government “owns” the airwaves, and can require than say 2% of all airtime belongs to the government for its own use, as part of the broadcasting license to all broadcasters – who BTW do not pay for their license – neither at the outset nor ongoing fees. Then the gov’t could give its airtime to political candidates.
October 18, 2009 4:23 pm at 4:23 pm #672755NY MomMemberJoseph: As stated above, In modern campaigns, legal and accounting expenses are a significant percentage of the overall budget.
But then what about the other expenses in the campaign? The rich still have the advantage.
October 18, 2009 4:27 pm at 4:27 pm #672756JosephParticipantBribery is a greater evil. Campaign “contributions” determine legislation. It is bribery plain and simple.
October 18, 2009 4:30 pm at 4:30 pm #672757I can only tryMemberJoseph-
I don’t see how “campaign contributions” differ from bribery. The “donors”, especially corporations or unions, have ulterior not altruistic motives when donating.
There are several reasons to contribute:
3) You want to influence your candidate.
IOW, I think ALL so-called contributions to campaigns should be outlawed as bribery.
This would abolish all political parties, as well as excluding all candidates except those rich enough to self-finance.
The existing campaign finance laws have already caused all sorts of shenanigans, such as 527 groups, families all maxing out donations to a particular group, left-wing filmmakers with an agenda, and soft dollar contributions as well as allowing super-rich candidates to overwhelm their opponents.
Although those laws were well-meaning, I think they cause more problems than they solve.
October 18, 2009 4:43 pm at 4:43 pm #672758I can only tryMemberJoseph-
Bribery is a greater evil.
Can’t argue with that. But…
Campaign “contributions” determine legislation. It is bribery plain and simple.
No more than than a community leader pledging a “bloc vote” for a candidate. This is not cash going into the candidate’s pocket, but towards his campaign to help him get elected.
October 18, 2009 4:44 pm at 4:44 pm #672759NY MomMemberICOT: That is very well said.
October 18, 2009 4:52 pm at 4:52 pm #672760I can only tryMemberNY Mom-
Thank you.
The opposing view clearly has valid points as well, but after factoring the pros and cons of the differing positions this is my conclusion.
October 18, 2009 5:12 pm at 5:12 pm #672761NY MomMemberICOT: There are valid points on both sides, but I feel that the risk of not having a political voice in the greater society is the greater evil. Politics is a dirty business, but there are many issues that affect the frum community which call for political influence.
What would be, if we didn’t have this influence to defend ourselves from our adversaries and to advocate for our concerns?
October 18, 2009 6:06 pm at 6:06 pm #672762JosephParticipantReason 4 is bribery. This is the most powerful reason of campaign contributions. It should not be allowed, whether open or closed? Should we allow bribery so long as it is open?
This would abolish all political parties
Not too bad an idea. Sounds like something George Washington would have liked.
Better the rich than the bribed. I think Yisro’s idea IS applicable here.
October 18, 2009 6:24 pm at 6:24 pm #672763NY MomMemberJoseph: And yet there are countless stories of when our Rabbonim utilized bribery to influence govt. officials in the past, whether in Europe of the Middle East. Were they incorrect to do so?
This political system isn’t perfect, but it is better than any of the other goyishe models out there, IMO.
October 18, 2009 6:30 pm at 6:30 pm #672764JosephParticipantNY Mom: Are you suggesting therefore it is okay to allow bribery? If that isn’t what you are suggesting, what was your point about that?
I entirely agree this system is better than any other goyishe model out there. But that isn’t saying much. And shouldn’t we improve the model?
October 18, 2009 6:54 pm at 6:54 pm #672765NY MomMemberJoseph: One of the richest guys in the world is far-left radical, George Soros. Do you think it would be better to have him in a political position over us, rather than someone who accepted campaign contributions from different groups, and which were disclosed to the public?
And what about Pres. Obama, who is beholden to the unions, who helped to get him elected. The outcome of the bankruptcy judgments of the car companies is an example of the “political payback” awarded to the unions. And yet the unions’ influence was achieved legally under campaign finance reform, which limits campaign contributions.
October 18, 2009 7:46 pm at 7:46 pm #672766NY MomMemberJoseph: Are you suggesting therefore it is okay to allow bribery? If that isn’t what you are suggesting, what was your point about that?
Of course, it is not OK to allow bribery. I was just trying to point out that even something as bad as bribery had its place. The Rabbonim were not against using it for the frum community’s benefit to influence government officials, when govt was corrupt.
Bribery in government is nothing new, and while it is wrong and distasteful, I don’t think that banning campaign contributions will accomplish what you think it will. That’s all.
Are you saying that the Torah’s system of judges will work in a goyishe society? Review the Torah requirements for judges, and tell me if this could ever happen in golus without moshiach.
And shouldn’t we improve the model?
Yes, but it is debatable whether banning campaign contributions would be a better scenario, due to the reasons I and ICOT have outlined above.
October 18, 2009 8:11 pm at 8:11 pm #672767JaxMemberIf Rudy Giuliani was in the running, would you choose Mike or Rudy?!
October 18, 2009 8:16 pm at 8:16 pm #672768JosephParticipantI’d write in a vote for Jax.
October 18, 2009 8:25 pm at 8:25 pm #672769mepalMemberYeah. Jax would do a good job as mayor.
October 18, 2009 8:25 pm at 8:25 pm #672770I can only tryMemberJoseph-
Reason 4 is bribery. This is the most powerful reason of campaign contributions. It should not be allowed, whether open or closed? Should we allow bribery so long as it is open?
I disagree with that definition, as does the law.
The contribution is going to campaign effort, which makes it no different than:
a) A newspaper editorial, supporting a candidate.
b) A community leader endorsing a candidate.
d) Campaign volunteers who expect consideration if their candidate wins.
Bribery would mean:
a) Benefits going directly to the candidate, whether cash, property, vacations, special consideration in the commodities market.
b) Any of the above benefits going to friends or relatives of the candidate.
c) Any secret agreement made to benefit the candidate in return for special consideration e.g. kickbacks.
a) Men of truth.
b) Men of means (for the reason mentioned earlier).
c) G-dly men.
d) Who despise money (as Rashi explains, who will surrender the money rather than go to din and have it taken away).
In addition, these men were to have been selected by Moshe.
[not a nice story]), and Bloomberg.
It would be a terrible idea to have a de facto restriction of public office to just that circle.
Not too bad an idea. Sounds like something George Washington would have liked.
I have no idea what GW whould have thought of such an idea but:
a) GW is listed as a Federalist in my childhood history book.
Jax-
Rudy, in a nanosecond.
October 18, 2009 8:28 pm at 8:28 pm #672771JosephParticipantJax 2017!
(2017, so its after he becomes old enough to vote.)
October 18, 2009 8:33 pm at 8:33 pm #672772JaxMemberICOT: same here Rudy over Mike!
Joseph: will you help me campaign at least?!
October 18, 2009 8:39 pm at 8:39 pm #672773mepalMemberYou’ll win all the yw-cr posters votes for sure.
October 18, 2009 8:41 pm at 8:41 pm #672774JosephParticipantICOT:
That is why I suggest the law be changed. And contributions outlawed as bribery.
The most corrupt form of bribery is money.
George Washington was not a Federalist (although his positions were reflected by the Federalists.)
October 18, 2009 8:43 pm at 8:43 pm #672775I can only tryMemberJoseph-
It would be a terrible idea to have a de facto restriction of public office to just that circle.
That was a strongly worded statement because I feel strongly about this issue. No offense is intended.
Jax-
I didn’t see your candidacy as an option when I voted for Rudy. Is it too late to change my ballot?
October 18, 2009 8:47 pm at 8:47 pm #672776JaxMembermepel: your on campaign duty as well!
ICOT: neither did i, but have no fear, it’s not too late to change your ballot!
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