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Dating younger is NOT the main cause of divorce or shalom bayis issues, although it is definitely a contributing factor. When younger people go into a marriage with the wrong ideals, they often need assistance to be “brought down to reality”
But immaturity alone can be worked on more easily than other BIGGER matters that can break a marrriage. I know of many immature people that needed help but definitely were on their way to a strong marriage with the proper guidance. Obviously there are always exceptions (though these people tend to have more problems than just immaturity).
Perhaps immaturity has to be clearly defined.
There are more problems when the spouses are too “mature”. Better they have their maturity grow with their marriage.
Pac/Man, I agree. It’s better that the couple should grow together, rather than that they should each be set in their own independent, mature ways.
Joseph,
“Doesn’t inquire” is not the same as “doesn’t require”.
Either way, it would be a massive C”H.
DY: the average incoming age to the largest post EY yeshiva in North America is almost 23 years old. The boys in that yeshiva do NOT on average get married at 22. If they did this problem wouldn’t be what it is today.
That’s what i’m after. IF insted of guys getting married at 23+ they got married at 22.5 it would do wonders for the shidduch crisis and I don’t even think hello99 can argue nor show any datat that the difference between 22.5 and 23.25 is at the root of major shalom bayis issues.
If anything, i’d posit that girls getting married at 18/19 vs. 20/21 are at a higher risk for SB issues. However I have no studies on this, so it’s not a point i’ve made nor promoted, but it’s certainly something worth contemplating.
Pac: I see you totally ignored my response to your questoin regarding if we can save the “next generation”.
It’s better that the couple should grow together, rather than that they should each be set in their own independent, mature ways.
There needs to be a balance. Too young is no good, but there’s an easy solution: wait. Too old can also be a problem, that they’re too set in their ways, but you can’t very well tell the older singles not to get married!
Like Goldie Lox, it has to be juuuust right.
AZ: I hear your point about a total fix for the next gen (i.e. this year’s seminary) girls. But I don’t think even you believe there will be enough of a groundswell of change, that fast, for your fix to *fully* fix it for that gen.
DY: Incorrect, there is absolutely no C”H by getting kedushin but not getting a civil marriage registration. It is fully legal to not be legally married while being religiously married, and it is totally kosher and legal.
And re: the R”Y, I was specifically told he doesn’t care whether there is or isn’t a civil registration (and if there is he would prefer to not be bothered to sign it as the officiating clergyman.) BTW (as a side point), regarding someone not being mesader unless there is a civil registration, in NY State you can only file a civil marriage registration AFTER the clergyman (i.e. mesader) officiated at the wedding. (You must get a license to marry before the ceremony, but if you don’t follow it up with a signed registration within 30 days, the license expires without any legal effect.) So it would be a bit difficult to refuse to be mesader without civilly registering the marriage , other than to inform the groom at every wedding that you insist he file the registration and then trust he will.
DY, of course not!
Older singles should most certainly get married. The point I was trying to bring out is how foolish it is connect shalom bayis issues with immaturity. Each age has its own pros and cons.
I do however feel that it is more difficult for an older single to get married than say a “fresh out of sem or ey”, simply because older singles are usually less flexible and more set in their ways. That is a challenge for older singles but I certainly can’t imagine it stopping one from getting married.
Too young is no good
What do you refer to as “too young”? 15? Who would disagree. 18? Many successful marriages at that age, and in fact there is no evidence any less successful than those marrying at 22.
the average incoming age to the largest post EY yeshiva in North America is almost 23 years old
I thought it was younger, but I never did a study. I still don’t think that getting boys married younger is so pashut; the clock starts ticking faster on leaving the b.m. full time.
You mentioned earlier that there’s a thought that unplugging the freezer wouldn’t be of any benefit. Why not? (I’m not advocating it – there’s a good reason for the freezer – but I’m curious how it could possibly not close the gap).
DY: My R”Y (a member of the Moetzes) never inquires about civil registration when he is mesader
As has been proven, the Moetzes is not a rayiah when gelt is involved. 🙁
AZ – “2) Encourage repudiation and in fact there are many girls who go that route once they hit the high 20’s/30’s (not that this really help anything, because the women of those first marriages, divorces or widows end up even more stuck since the men who have previously been married have the opportunity to look for women who have never been married instead of women who have been married)”
Yes, I agree with this one. I actually alluded to it in the topic of “Who wants to be a Tzaddakes like Rus”.
Your misgivings are not the reality. There are two types of second marriages one is middle age and one is older age. The older age people tend to marry usually because they don’t want to be alone in their older years. These aren’t interested in more kids as usually both have from previous (even if biologically it’s possible). The second type are the people in the middle age. Unfortunately the women don’t always want to get remarried, some because they are busy raising their kids or some because they went OTD. So there are more men in this class looking for marriage than women.
“in fact there are many girls who go that route once they hit the high 20’s/30’s”
This I disagree with. Maybe there are a few, but definitely not many. If there were many -this class wouldn’t have problems with Shidduchim. The fact that there are so few is because I believe it’s a strong stigma not to marry older guys esp. those whom are divorced! So now we have two stigmas to contend with -this and marrying s/o your own age!
gaw: There is no gelt. It is equally the case for those who don’t give any financial support. I’m surprised though you would insinuate the R”Y bends from what is correct based on financial considerations.
Joe: Chashud. 🙁
Also, the couple can get more money from the government (and/or stay on the parents’ insurance) if not married, thereby enabling them to stay in Kollel longer. It is the same principle.
In any event, as I explained to DY above, there is nothing untoward, unkosher, unethical, or outright illegal in getting kedushin without a marriage certificate. The State doesn’t want to know your religious or personal life.
Pac: it is easily sovlable and we are well on our way. In addition it is a very real possibility to really help almost all the girls who have started dating in the last few years. very very very real possibility. I fully believe we will get there…
DY: you say you didn’t do a study…. I’ve seen the actuall numbers. You concerns as to whethter it is a good idea or not is exactly the reason why all these ideas go forward ONLY upon serious consultation with leading R”Y.
Pac-Man, while there may not be any problem with neglecting to obtain a marriage license, one must report total household income when applying for most (if not all) government benefits. So even if the married couple has no marriage license, if they are living together they must report the husband’s income. Given that this is the case, how exactly does the couple benefit by not obtaining a marriage license?
Unless you are referring to a polygamous marriage. In that case, by marrying without obtaining a license the husband could avoid prosecution for bigamy, but all household income must still be reported.
anon: Exactly. I’m glad you agree with me there is nothing wrong by not filing for a marriage certificate. (Yes, the discussion was regarding religious but not secular polygamy.) I agree with you about reporting the household income, even if not married. BTW, no one has any problems with non-religious men and women living together, having children even, but never getting married. The State couldn’t care less as a legal (or otherwise) matter.
In any event, as I explained to DY above, there is nothing untoward, unkosher, unethical, or outright illegal in getting kedushin without a marriage certificate.
You didn’t explain it, you asserted it. You’re wrong.
You refer to the moral decay in our society as if it’s an excuse to do things which look wrong. It doesn’t work that way, it would still be a huge C”H.
Have you dug up the tape of RAM calling for polygamy? (BTW, how many wives did he have?)
The religious issue would be “Baanu MiKidusha Chamurah LiKidusha Kala”, Chazal were concerned that frumkeit shouldn’t come across as a kulah.
The Litvish have surplus girls; the Chasidim have surplus boys. Right there you have a partial solution. (Even with acknowledging the Litvish have a greater surplus.) The surplus girls will be married to the surplus boys.
Is NASI promoting this yet? Let’s move forward on this!
Pac-Man, I don’t agree that there’s “nothing wrong” with frum couples not applying for a marriage license (even if it’s not illegal), which is why I wrote that there “may not be” any problem with that. But I am glad you agree that even couples who are not legally married are required to report all household income.
However (and this question is for GAW or anyone else familiar with the practice of not obtaining marriage licenses for monogamous marriages), if the family reports all household income as they are legally required to do, how does not getting a marriage license entitle them to greater government benefits?
DY: Why is it a CH if the State and the IRS couldn’t care less if you live with a woman, have children, but never get married. (In fact, you will make the IRS happy by doing so.) You simply asserted it is a CH, but you are wrong as it is not, and can even be a Kiddush Hashem. (If you are not registering it as not to violate the archaic polygamy laws on the books and to help a girl who needs to get married have a husband.)
RAM has many many tapes, but IY”H I will find the one (at least one) that he indicates he has no opposition to it. (I didn’t say he was “calling for it”. But the Vilna Gaon WAS calling for polygamy, and I can try to find that source too if you’d like. And Rav Ovadia Yosef shlit”a is another proponent of allowing contemporary polygamy.)
Pac: if it was realistic to think that regular 22 year old litvishe girls would marry satmar and chasidishe boys it might work. However, it’s not likely that this will happen anytime soon. If you think you can make it happen by all meant go for it!
The key to alleviating the present situation and solving it going forward is implementing solutions that impact the first five years of when the boys and girls date.
If I can sum up the suggestions on the table lfrom this thread:
Pac: Polygamy and girls marrying chassidishe boys
Health: Girls marrying guys who have been marreid already
AZ: continuing to encourage close in age shidduchim; including implementing ideas that would have the boys begin dating closer to 22 instead of closer to 23.
If I must say so myelf i think the ideas I’ve been promoting are more likely to take root and actually work.
“The Litvish have surplus girls; the Chasidim have surplus boys. Right there you have a partial solution. (Even with acknowledging the Litvish have a greater surplus.) The surplus girls will be married to the surplus boys.
Is NASI promoting this yet? Let’s move forward on this!”
I have some implementable ideas to promote this but I suggest a new thread should be started for it, as this one has become too cumbersome.
AZ: Now, boys begin dating whenever they and their parents and Roshei Yeshiva feel they are ready. If you pressure/encourage them to start earlier, you create a situation where the boys are dating, and possibly getting married, when they are NOT ready!!!
It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to realize that this will cause MUCH bigger problems than you hope to solve.
AZ: The same way you can encourage closer in age shidduchim, you can encourage shidduchim between Litvish and Chasidish. (Chasidish isn’t only the heiser Satmar types.)
I have some implementable ideas to promote this but I suggest a new thread should be started for it, as this one has become too cumbersome.
msseeker: Please start that thread.
Pac: feel free to get involved.
Hello99:
Now boys do NOT begin dating when they their parents their rebbeim feel they are ready.
You want proof?
How likely is it that close to 400 boys each winter and 400 boys each summer become “ready” at precisely the exact same day. year after year after year?
Sounds like collusion? or perhaps they would have started earlier if only they didn’t first return from EY at close to 23 years old….
Hello: R”Y advising the NASI Project beg to differ with you and feel that if boys began dating closer to 22 then to 23 there is no reason to think that would result in shalom bayis concerns.
I was wondering…..doesn’t g-d control who you marry and when you marry? As long as you do your hishtadlus there is no crises. So why are we finding causes and suggesting solutions when it is all part of g-ds plan.
“one must report total household income when applying for most (if not all) government benefits”
Indeed I sat on a federal grand jury last fall and voted to indict someone who appears to have lied on an application for government benefits. She is facing a long prison sentence.
I was wondering…..doesn’t G-d control who you marry and when you marry? As long as you do your hishtadlus there is no crises. So why are we finding causes and suggesting solutions when it is all part of G-d’s plan.
For an imdividual, you’re right. But society’s hishtadlus has to take the whole picture into account, and if that means closing the age gap, then that’s the hishtadlus which needs to be done.
AZ: You could also argue that the 400 boys graduated college in January or June (Winter & Summer months), and thus feel obligated to only start dating when they can AFFORD to be married. I think it is a very smart move that removes the burden of financial support from parents and tzedakah organizations.
Why doesn’t NASI (or anyone for that matter) do a random phone survey in Flatbush, BP, Monsey, Passaic, Detroit, Cleveland, LA, etc. from numbers in the frum directory, and ask the gender and age of all unmarried children (or shidduch age children), to determine how great the gender discrepancy – if any – exactly is? Whatever the participation rate is, there is probably no reason to believe the (scientific?) survey would unfairly skew the results to either gender. Then you would have real data you can present to the community and leaders.
DaasYochid: If hashem wants the person to marry at 35, can you do anything to change that? Can the individual or society change it? True, if the person is locked in a box there is a lack of hishtadlus. However, if the person is dating, it should not matter what you, as a society does. If Hashem wants them to marry at 18 or 48, that is when they will get married. How is changing the age gap will help? If hashem wants an 18 year old girl to marry a 23 year old boy, or 19 marrying a 35 year old, that is what is going to happen. Changing the age gap should have no affect on the age of the person you will marry.
Hashem doesn’t want them to marry at 35. Hashem wants them to marry at 18. See the Mishna. Barring that, try to get as close to that as possible (in either direction.)
Pac-Man: Ok, if Hashem wants them to get married at 18, shouldn’t they be married at 18? The Gemara says 40 days before the vlad is born a bas kol goes out and says Polni ben Polnis will marry Polnus bas Polnis and the shidduch is born. All that needs to happen is these two people need to date and get married. So if hashem wants them to get married at 18, they will need to meet when they are 18. If hashem wants him to be 23 and she should be 18, that is when they will meet. If he needs to be 35 and she 30, that is when they will get married.
In other words, there is really no shidduch crises. People are getting married when Hashem WANTS them to get married. Unless you feel today’s generation are all not marrying their zivug and that is why 23 year old boys gate 18 year old girls.
Re Pac-Man’s ben 18 l’chuppah: right, because we do everything else the mishna says, or at least try to.
It’s a natural progression, is it not? I don’t think one can pick one stage randomly.
anon1m0us: Regarding the 400 boys: you could suggest what you wrote, except that you’d be wrong because not a single one of those boys graduated college that winter/that summer, they weren’t even enrolled in a college……..
anon1m0us: If hashem wants a peson to die at 34 can you do anything to change that??? So why have a organization like Hatzlah??? Eiether Hashem wants them to do or he wants them to live. Why shold we butt in????
In a similar vein, do you believe that hashem wants 10% of this years graduating class of High School girls to never get married. Without working to close the age gap that is where we are headed, much like without hatzalah many people would die and w/o RCCS many sick patients would Rachaman litzlan not recover and the list goes on and on. Bitachon and Emunah are critical, but not in place of taking reasobable steps to assist others in difficulty situatons.
Pac: why don’t you be that someone.
FYI- NASI has been there and done that (with a similar survey) and that was a major breakthough in getting community leaders to realize the seriouslness of the situation.
AZ: I was trying to be Dan Lkaf Zechus. Since none of the boys were in college, does this mean working boys or girls have no shidduchim issues? Does this only apply the the learning boys?
Plus, your comparing apples to oranges. As you clearly missed, I specifically stated a person needs to do his hishtadlus. But, as you mentioned, if Hashem wants you to die at 18, or 25, Hatzalah won’t be able to help you. The reason why we have Hatzalah is because someone in medical distress can not help themselves with their hishtalus, so they call hatzalah. However, if someone is dating they are doing their hishtadlus. You should be asking, a boy sitting in yeshiva without any interest in dating, should you create an Organization to help him?
I once asked my Rebbe when the lotto was at 300 Million dollars. Should I buy 1 ticket or 100 tickets? The response was 1, since anymore might show a lack of bitachon. if hashem wants you to win, your 1 ticket will win. So when it comes to health, we call hatzalah and doctors because we do not know how to heal ourselves. Our Hishtadlus is calling the doctor. But by dating, going on dates is the hishdatlus and creating organizations or taknah might show a lack of bitachon.
AZ: I assume you are joking. Did you really think I meant the selfsame day a boy decides he is ready he goes out on his first date. Obviously, the first Cheshvan or Iyar after he feels ready he enrols in BMG. This is the way it should be; those who are ready at 21 enter Lkwd then and start dating a couple of months later, those who aren’t ready until 24 enrol then. If they would listen to you and being dating before they are ready, the tragic results will be your responsibility.
The R”Ys signed to encourage boys to consider close in age shidduchim. I have no issue with not ruling out a shidduch just because the girl is “only” one year younger. But pressuring boys to date before they are ready will certainly exacerbate the already tragic divorce scene.
FYI- NASI has been there and done that (with a similar survey) and that was a major breakthough in getting community leaders to realize the seriouslness of the situation.
Why hasn’t NASI published it (i.e. on its website)? I never saw any phone survey results from NASI breaking down the unmarried men vs. women demographics that demonstrate more shidduch aged women and to what extent. Where can I see the results from NASI’s survey? And why haven’t they publicized it?
anon1m0us,
According to your logic, Hatzolah never should have been started, since at that moment, nobody’s life was going to be saved.
The reality is that it’s as if (on a community scale) some girls are locked in a box (albeit any specific girl can gett married), and, at least according to 70 R”Y, it’s not a lack of bitachon to try to close the gap so that there’s an opportunity for all of them to get married.
Pac: The data from the girls schools has been published again and again and again. The data for the boys schools was was given with the express condition that only people who needed to see it should see it. And you can be sure they did.
Hello99: You are free to your opinion. Unfortanetly for you the people advising in the situaton feel that if boys wold beging dating closer to 22 than 23 there would be no harm done to the marriages. In fact many many boys would want to start earlier but are unable to fight the societal trend and therefore they start later.
Just to take your exact comment. The first chesvon or iyur AFTER he feels ready… and what would be if he enrolled the cheshvon or iyur right before he was ready and started learning without any interest in dating so that after 3/5 months he will then beging dating – instead of comning when he is ready and THEN waiting for 5 months……..
The present situation is such that the boys move in LARGE groups not on individual readiness and that is resulting in many many boys starting to date later then they really would want to.
As an aside, i take issue to you continous use of the phrase pressure/force boys to begin dating earlier then they are ready to. I don’t think i’ve posted one comment along those lines. I’m simply advocating returning from EY SLIGHTLY earlier and then everyone will begin dating when they are ready. The R”Y advising this course of action are more than ready to “take responsibility” for your concerns.
Are you perhaps concerned that if a boy wasn’t artificially held back, he would beging dating against his/his parents/his rebbeim’s better judgemennt simply because he can?
(this is not to insinuate that this specific course of action was brought before 70 R”Y. It’s obvious that projects can’t be run under advisement from 70 people. However, the R”Y advising the project are well respected by the 70 different R”Y who signed to the age gap concept in general)
anon1mous: The reason i discuss learning boys is simply because they are all together in a few places and thus the most movement with regards to shidduch changes can be made working with them. Working boys by and large don’t move in groups nearly as large and thus its much harder to effect change it that group. The shidduch crisis affects girls looking for all different kinds of boys.
It’s obvious that projects can’t be run under advisement from 70 people. However, the R”Y advising the project are well respected by the 70 different R”Y who signed to the age gap concept in general)
So why can’t NASI advise the tzibur which R”Y provide NASI with their ongoing guidance? I think it is a bit unusual to promote something under “the R”Y advising the project”, but being reluctant to identify who those R”Y are.
Pac: The people who need to know, do know who the R”Y advising the project are, and the R”Y advising the project feel that the desired goals are NOT best served when this info is publicized in forums such as YWN CR.
If that doesn’t do it for you, i can’t help.Feel free to contact them directly. Just remeber about two years ago in this forum doubt was raised re: their claim that a letter would be signed by tens of R”Y regarding Age Gap being the primary cause of the crisis etc. and the doubters didn’t believe it, but lo and behold it was true.
feel that the desired goals are NOT best served when this info is publicized in forums such as YWN CR.
Please, pray tell, HOW, and in what way, classifying the identity of the alleged R”Y’s as top secret furthers the mission. Have the fanatical proponents of 10-year average age gaps in frum marriages C”V threatened harm to these R”Y if they promote close in age shidduchim? Really, even if you don’t tell me who they are, please explain why or how it helps to keep their names a secret.
Feel free to contact them directly.
How? Who?
Unfortantely for you pac you aren’t on a need to know basis and the R”Y feel that you don’t need to know.
you can contact NASI at [email protected] i’m sure they will be happy to help you.
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