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Ok. Dr. Pepper, if I understand correctly – it seems to me that you’re saying if guys (and girls) are not wasting their time going out with people that are clearly a waste of time for them, they then can spend more time going out with what they really want and can sooner get married. The sooner they get married, the less possible age-related effect can occur.
From a psychological standpoint, i also agree with you. This is my own opinion, based on my own observations of tons of older and not older singles. In psychology, there are various stages as most of you well know, such as trust vs. mistrust, etc. If a person goes through that stage without gaining what they were supposed to, they still can go back and fix the issue – but it will be much, much harder. can even think of it in terms of one’s physical development. there seems to be a certain stage where a kid will learn how how to walk or crawl. at that stage, it is relatively easy for them to learn, or rather, they don’t seem to mind at all the work involved in that activity. they fall down, they laugh, pick themselves up, and start again. However, if for some reason a kid had to be in bed during that whole time or was forced to not develop at the right time, and then try to start walking at an older age, it is much, much more difficult and painful. Similarly, a kid generally enjoys the process of learning to read at around 5 or 6 – they don’t mind sounding out the words. it gives them great pleasure to read, even though they are laboriously sounding out the words, and if they go at their own rate (without undue pressure), they will read and read to themselves. If a kid would start much later – past the developmental stage, (ex. learning to read a second language), the process is much more laborious and not enjoyable – it seems like psychologically, they are past that developmental stage and have no interest in going back to it.
So too, does it seem like this process occurs with shidduchim. i don’t know the exact age range, but it seems that boys and girls in their early 20’s are at the developmental level to get married – to become a one, instead of just a two. Even though it still is difficult, it seems that it is easier to do the process at the right time. If for various reasons, the shidduch did not occur until a later point, it seems like it is much more difficult for both parties. (I know that there are environmental factors that take part also, but i think that those are generally more often the excuse, rather than the cause in and of itself.
So, in short, I agree that getting people married off sooner, rather than later, is crucial for the most part. (There will always be exceptions).
What can we do to get people to find their shidduchim quicker?
1. get rid of incompetent shadchanim
i agree, but that is certainly not the only problem. (as virtually everyone i know met their bashert not through a professional shadchan).
other problems:
1) finding all the boys and girls who are available. as many posters said, a guy in yeshiva has an easier time generally than a guy working. I don’t believe for a second that it’s because girls don’t want a working guy – many still do.
let’s go back to Dr. Pepper’s island analogy.
What if on this island there were a few big huts with tons of males, and other individual males were all over the island, like on some tree or in some little cave somewhere. A girl who wants to get married would be wise to look into the huts where there are 100’s of boys – thus those boys generally get found right away, and the boys all over will only be found by the ones who accidentally and/or the right shadchan matches them up.
the girls, because they have no hut to belong to are much harder to find. If their father, (even if he does not have money), is friends with some of the hut leaders or works in a hut himself, he can look around more easily and find the boy that’s right for his daughter. an unknown girl coming to the hut may not be able to easily get a guy to go out with him, because all the girls are going to the hut, so he is overwhelmed with all of the possibilities.
furthermore, some parents of the girls don’t know anything about shidduchim and are waiting for people to find their daughters – they don’t realize that it may be “easier” if they would actually go look at the huts, forge the proper contacts so the boys would pay attention, and learn how to successfully search and find the right boy for their daughter.
So, some of the problems are:
1. hard to find the working boys
2. hard to find the girls, unless they go and have connections with yeshivos. (a wealthy girl is worth a hut of her own, and boys do circle around such a hut, as they would like a hut of their own).
3. shadchanim will generally do creaming – getting the easy girls married off, not paying attention to girls who have more unique need, and then we have Dr. Pepper’s problem – the next batch of girls come, and the story repeats itself, exasperating the problem with each new batch of girls.
other problems are that the boy and/or girl are not ready at the proper stage: they should not be forced to go out; that just prolongs the problem and doesn’t allow the solution to evolve. Parents need to be aware of these problems, and do whatever they can to prevent them and try to help them, when the problem occurs.
(i can get into these problems also, but i think i’ve written more than my allotted time and space.
pacman: off-topic, but what exactly is the question:
is it?
1) if i wanted a working guy, why did he need to be able to learn?
2) if i wanted a learning guy, why would i want that?
3) since i’m not going to be his chavrusa anyways, what does it matter how well or not well he learns?
ofcourse – you’re right, but still there are many that are out there and should have been found, but haven’t been yet by the right girl.
one more problem:
the black sheep/ white swan problem:
when family is all one type, and child is of different type. same problem with the island. people of same types tend to live near each other and socialize with each other, and don’t know how to find and where to look for those of other types. (if they even admit that their child is different from them – if not, that’s another problem. by the time they realize and/or reconcile themselves to the fact that their child is different, child is already older and problem is further complicated.
DaasYochid-
Getting the nasty shadchanim under control will not end all shidduch problems, but it would solve some and it definitely has to be done.
The 22 year old boys would still be redt (in the most relaxed, pleasant fashion) the 19 year old girls, and would still marry them!
That’s true, this is another problem that also has to be dealt with, I’m not denying that.
Denying that these shadchanim exist doesn’t help the situation. If you never had to deal with any of them- I envy you. But they are out there.
binah – 3.
one of my posts didn’t go through yet – i don’t know if it was because it was too long or just missed, so i’ll try to shorten it.
here’s the edited version.
Ok. Dr. Pepper, if I understand correctly – it seems to me that you’re saying if guys (and girls) are not wasting their time going out with people that are clearly a waste of time for them, they then can spend more time going out with what they really want and can sooner get married. The sooner they get married, the less possible age-related effect can occur. I agree.
From a psychological standpoint, i also agree with you. In psychology, there are various stages as most of you well know, such as trust vs. mistrust, etc. If a person goes through that stage without gaining what they were supposed to, they still can go back and fix the issue – but it will be much, much harder.
So too, does it seem like this process occurs with shidduchim. i don’t know the exact age range, but it seems that boys and girls in their early 20’s are at the developmental level to get married – to become a one, instead of just a two. Even though it still is difficult, it seems that it is easier to do the process at the right time. If for various reasons, the shidduch did not occur until a later point, it seems like it is much more difficult for both parties. (I know that there are environmental factors that take part also, but i think that those are generally more often the excuse, rather than the cause in and of itself.)
So, in short, I agree that getting people married off sooner, rather than later, is crucial for the most part. (There will always be exceptions).
Getting the nasty shadchanim under control will not end all shidduch problems, but it would solve some and it definitely has to be done…
Denying that these shadchanim exist doesn’t help the situation. If you never had to deal with any of them- I envy you. But they are out there.
I’m not denying it, I’m questioning the extent of it (I’m not saying you’re wrong, I’m just countering your bad experience with my good experience; I don’t think we can ever come to a conclusion on this), and questioning the extent that such an issue would have on the gender/age disparity issue.
binahyeseira –
pacman: off-topic, but what exactly is the question:
is it?
1) if i wanted a working guy, why did he need to be able to learn?
2) if i wanted a learning guy, why would i want that?
3) since i’m not going to be his chavrusa anyways, what does it matter how well or not well he learns?
Pac-Man –
binah – 3.
PM, you don’t think how well someone learns has an impact on their middos and religious maturity?
Daas – How well they are able to learn or how well they try to learn? Binah seemed to imply the former; the latter is what counts.
Not always.
No, not always, but it’s a positive factor.
Daas – How well they are able to learn or how well they try to learn?
Both. I agree that the latter is more important to the RS”O, but the former is important as well. Ein am ha’aretz chassid. If a woman feels she needs someone with both aspects, it may be perfectly legitimate.
Daas – Which is why I asked binah to explain herself (something I am still awaiting.)
Both.
You seem to imply that someone who tries his fullest to learn will have lesser middos and religious maturity than someone is better able to learn. I totally disagree.
You seem to imply that someone who tries his fullest to learn will have lesser middos and religious maturity than someone is better able to learn. I totally disagree.
You are oversimplifying my position. There’s obviously more to it than that; you can find two people equal in both, yet one can be greater than the other.
However, don’t deny the ability of the Torah which one has learned to make changes in a person. I reiterate: ein am ha’aretz chassid.
I reiterate: ein am ha’aretz chassid.
Neither a so-so ability learner (who is putting his fullest into his learning) or a strong abled learner is an am ha’aretz. So this am ha’aretz business has nothing to do with the discussion at hand.
I am a BY graduate who does not mind going out with a YU type guy, but there aren’t any in my community. Everyone just assumes that I want a learning guy and thats all I get set up with. Its no wonder I am 21 and still have not gone out on one date. I tell them I want a working guy, and they respond with, “Well, he’s planning to work eventually. Maybe in a couple of years.” I guess it really is hard to find a working boy because I have had no luck whatsoever.
I missed an older post, so I’ll answer it first.
DY – Do you think Litvish girls with Chasidish boys is a more palatable or appropriate scenario than with YU boys?
That depends on the individuals involved, but my point is that in the vast majority, both won’t work because of the cultural differences, even if we ignore the “frumkeit” issue.
Neither a so-so ability learner (who is putting his fullest into his learning) or a strong abled learner is an am ha’aretz. So this am ha’aretz business has nothing to do with the discussion at hand.
That’s actually relative; I didn’t mean it as an absolute, I was using this statement of Chaza”l to show that how well someone learns is a direct factor in his development as a ben-Torah.
If someone of “so-so” ability will really learn b’hasmodah, with proper bikush haemes, he will eventually learn quite well, in fact better than the lazy genius. If a boy doesn’t yet learn well, his development will be, to some degree, behind (if he’s a harder worker, he’ll eventually catch up and surpass those of superior talent).
pacman: sorry for the delay – wanted to think first.
first of all, daas yochid is exactly right on WHY I wanted a guy very serious about his learning and who would learn for a good part of his day.
I agree with you that for that alone, it would not matter the level of the guy’s learning, except for the fact that presumably someone who is good at learning would have more of a desire to immerse himself in learning and to continue to do so.
The bottom line of why it was so important to me that he be capable of learning in the way I described is quite simple and not so profound and may not even be recommendable, but it’s the truth. All girls need to be able to respect their husbands. For me, although I can respect many different people as people, one of the main things that I needed in order to respect my husband was his ability to learn. I don’t know why. This is still the case even after I’m married. The only thing I can answer about the fact that true he is not my chavrusah, but a guy who spends a good deal of his day learning will be talking in learning, even to his wife (his insights, his divrei torah, his thoughts).
Furthermore, I feel that my husband’s learning is MY learning. I enjoy the way he talks and thinks in spiritual matters and his divrei torah and his insights that he has in his learning (not just gemarah, but also his understanding of the maharal, mussar sefarim, even the parsha).
sorry, if I can’t clarify my reasoning enough, because the real reason is just that I need it because I need it.
snowy – right. that’s the ugly duckling syndrome; there are working guys out there, but your family doesn’t know how to find them. There are also all types of working guys: yeshivishe working guys (they work, but still would want to live in Lakewood and send kids to yeshivishe schools, etc., out-of-town working guys: who generally are planning to work and be kovea ittim – there are certain yeshivas who have a number of guys like that – classic example is ner Yisrael. and then there are YU guys, and even there the field is diverse, such as black hat YU guys, black knitted kippas YU guys, and regular knitted kippas (sorry, I hate defining people by what they wear on their head, but ’tis simpler). All of them may have different ideologies and different thoughts on how they would want to raise their families, send their kids to school, etc.
I think it would be important for you to clarify for yourself exactly (or as much as you can) what you would like in terms of hashkafa and personality, and then do research as to where you would most likely find that type of person.
Then tell EVERYONE you meet in DETAILS, what you are looking for.
I told this modern orthodox girl, PhD student of Columbia University, who just 2 seconds before was making fun of black hats, exactly what I was looking for, including the black hat, and she said, “Oh, I know exactly who you are looking for”. it’s a whole crazy story of how she knew him and knew all these details about him, which I am not going to go into, but she described completely what I wanted.
Also, if you have any ways of getting to know people/shadchanim in Queens, Baltimore, Chicago, etc. where there tend to be more of the type you’re looking for, very wise to do so. Good luck in your hishtadlus and may Hashem help you find what you are looking for very soon.
i think snowy’s problem is a VERY typical problem, and one that causes a lot of wasted time, and then spirals into other problems if a person doesn’t find their shidduch within about 2 years from when they officially started being in the parsha.
As long as people are suggesting that we go back in time (pre- Rabbeinu Gershon) why don’t we take a lesson from the times of the Gemara when they celebated Tu B’Av, and all the girls BORROWED dresses in order for the poor not to feel embarrassed. [I’m sure that the boy who approached the girl did not first inquire how much her side would support.]
I think it’s funny that every frum think the “other” side has a harder time finding a shidduch. In YWN, it’s the working boys and in the other sites (can’t name them since it might be deleted) it’s the learning boys.
I, as a working boy, had a list of 10 girls on it each week. There was no shortage of dates and I never went without two dates a week. While my best friend, who is a learning boy, had a harder time. B’h we are both now married.
The point is….I think the shidduch crises is a man made crisis created by people who don’t have dates. In reality, there are 107 boys born for every girl (yes, worldwide, not jews alone). In addition, currently, there are also more than 100 MILLION men than women, as reported in the UN Census (http://www.geohive.com/earth/pop_gender.aspx). It’s sad though that Israel does have more women, which can be attributed to deaths from war.
One of the reasons why we have a “man made shidduch crises” is the refusal of both parties to travel to each other. For example, my learning friend refused to travel to Monsey for a date because it was a shlep. He would rather not date then to travel an hour for the girl. Funny thing is, he married a Monsey girl. Or a girl from Baltimore won’t travel for a guy standing on the principle the man should come to her. We stand on too many foolish principles!! The only time both parties are willing to travel is when they start getting older and more desperate.
SO in essence, there are more than enough guys who sit and learn for learning boys and enough guys for girls who want working boys.
agree.
SO in essence, there are more than enough guys who sit and learn for learning boys and enough guys for girls who want working boys.
I disagree. You’re not accounting for the age discrepancy and increasing population.
Daas Yochid:
1) I said ONE of the reasons, not THE reason.
2) Age discrepancies should not make much of a difference. An 18 year old girl would date a man 18-23. As she gets older, so does her age requirements.
3) The census includes population growth. In addition, boys are more common in the frum world. And this is a scientific fact, not opinion.
Ofcourse: you just proved my point where everyone else thinks the issue is with the other side. As noted in other posts by others, they say there is a shortage of LEARNING boys, while you are saying there is a shortage of working boys:)
The point is, expand your horizon outside your 4 amos and you will surely find people to date. So he does not live in Boro Park or Flatbush?! It is not the end of the world! (it might be for the mother in law:) There are tons of eligible bachelors and bachelorettes in LA, Texas, Florida, Israel, Belgium, London, etc.
anon,
1) Any cause for people to not marry would add to the problem. I didn’t argue on this point, just on your assertion that the numbers are equal.
2) If the 18 year old girls would marry 18 year old boys, we would not have the problem anywhere near the extent that we do. It’s the 18 year olds marrying the 22 year olds which is the issue.
3) I have no idea what the census has anything to do with it. There are simply more 18 year old girls than 22 year old boys (and vice versa, but it’s rare for an 18 year old boy to marry a 22 year old girl).
I have no idea if your scientific “fact” has any validity, but it seems from comparing the size of Bais Yaakov enrollment to yeshiva enrollment that it’s not the case.
anon1m0us: You mind elucidating on your theory about how frum people have more baby boys than baby girls? This sounds like sci-fi.
Daas:
An 18 year old girl would marry a boy is 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24 or even older.
A boy would marry any one his age and younger. For example, a 22 year old boy would marry an 18, 19, 20, 21, and maybe a 22 year old girl. Hence, girls have more options of marrying eligible boys than boys marrying eligible girls since girls marry their age and up while boys will marry their age and younger.
In addition, the census is just proof against this misconception that there are more girls than boys in the world; which is totally false based on a census.
Fortunately, a fact does not need additional validity from YWN forum since it is a fact in the nature of biology that increases the chances of having a boy.
Furthermore, there is no statistics or documentation that can help you determine the sizes of Bais Yaakov or yeshivas since that data was never compiled. You can not look at Mir yeshiva in NY or a Lakewood yeshiva enrollment without also compiling the data from Bais Yaakov’s in Cincinnati.
I stand by my statements that 1) There are enough of the male and female genders for everyone. 2) People need to expand their dating circles beyond their 4 amos.
Pizzaman:
it might sound like sci-fi, but it is all backed by studies and research. You can argue with me, but how are you going to argue against the world census? You can argue with me about the numbers in the frum world, but you can not argue against a known science called Biology that dictates the premise of my argument. I would go more into detail, but this is not a Biology course. But feel free to ask your local orthodox doctor or internet provider on how halacha promotes the propagation of the male species.
he tried to post why there are more boys than girls but it was not allowed for reasons related to a mixed audience here.
but it is not a proven scientific fact
i doubt if you can provide any statistics as to the M/F ratio in frum populations
Mod 80:
True, one can not determine the amount in the frum community, but is the frum community any different from the rest of the world? How are our birth rate different or special from no frum or non Jews?
In addition, the world census provides the FACT of how there are more boys than girls in the world. Using that assumption, one can additional assume there are also more boys and girls in the frum world since frum people do not grow horns on their head and most of us fall into a normal range. As far as the explanation in Biology, the Gemorah in Niddah 31A, deals with this a little and there are numerous studies that indicate how halacha favors boys. Again, hamyvin yovin.
i wasn’t agreeing to the population numbers – i have no idea, but suspect that it’s fairly equal. i was just agreeing that many of the problems are man-made problems, though i do not believe that there are simple solutions. i do believe that there may be solutions, if people would address the true problems.
anon1m0us:
Except that frum jews don’t use abortion as a means of gender selection.
(not disagreeing with the main point)
Gavra: Neither does “most” of the world.
anon1m0us: Except where it is most populated (India & China).
anon1m0us – “I stand by my statements that 1) There are enough of the male and female genders for everyone. 2) People need to expand their dating circles beyond their 4 amos.”
You make a lot of sense with this and all your statements.
anon1m0us:
At risk of rehashing what i don’t want to do and i won’t pursue this issue further in this foroum, her goes one more time.
1. data was compiled covering day schools all acroos the country including cincinati not just mir and lakewood.
2. It is not correct that there are 107 male births for female birhts. there are aprox 104 males for every 100 males. that helps but falls far short of compensating for the discrepency of boys dating to the number of girls dating due to the fact that the girls start dating at a much younger age.
at the risk of a significant oversimplification, there are far more girls 18-22 then boys 22-26
104 males for every 100 females? No wonder the men are winning. (It’s a man’s world, as they say.)
anon1m0us,
Your mistake is that you are not accounting for an increasing population.
Daas: the census does take into account population growth, hence you can see the increase from various years. Did you look at the census article? Click on the right side link for population growth.
In addition, there was a study done by the US dept of LAbor that seems to indicate that there is a 51% chance in the US for boys being born. See the Chance Magazine article “Does Having Boys or Girls Run in the Family?” By Joseph Lee Rodgers and Debby Doughty
Why do you think frum people are not affected by the same statistical outcomes as the rest of the world?
AZ: Please provide the article that took a census of ALL yeshiva’s and Day schools and breaks it down by gender. It would be interesting to read. In addition, Global is 107 per 100 while in the US it is 105 per 100 (close to your 104). Either way, there are more boys than girls. Not to over simplify, but lets start from year 1. There are 105 boys born for 100 girls. AT year 18 there are 1,890 boys vs 1000 girls. Argument sake, 10% of the girls marry. That leaves 900 Girls versus 1,790 boys left. Year 19: There is now 1900 (another 1000 girls reach marriageable age after 18 years) girls and 3680 boys. Remember, if girls start dating by 18 so if 10% of girls marry, that means only 100 boys marry those girls. Now lets say 20% got married. That will leave 1520 girls unmarried and while we now have 3300 boys unmarried. As you can see, as the years go on, based on whatever statistics you want to use (104 , 105, or 107) there will ALWAYS be more guys than girls. Of course this does include people going off the derech or dying. The fact a girl starts younger actually helps the girls get married younger. In addition, for argument sake, lets say 100% of all the girls from year 20 to 18 get married, that would mean 2520 girls marrying out of the 5190 boys (remember, each year increases boys over 18 by 1890 boys). That means ALL the girls from years 18, 19, & 20 are now married, there will still be a surplus of 2670 boys who are unmarried. if anything, the shidduch crises is on the boys, not girls.
anon1m0us,
Daas: the census does take into account population growth, hence you can see the increase from various years.
Yes, but you didn’t.
Since the population is increasing, there are more 19 year olds than 23 year olds. Hence, despite overall parity (or even slightly more males), for shidduch purposes, there is great disparity.
Did you look at the census article? Click on the right side link for population growth.
No, I’m granting those stats, and that they apply to the frum world, just not to the shidduch scene (since the boys are generally older than the girls they marry).
In addition, there was a study done by the US dept of LAbor that seems to indicate that there is a 51% chance in the US for boys being born. See the Chance Magazine article “Does Having Boys or Girls Run in the Family?” By Joseph Lee Rodgers and Debby Doughty
Why do you think frum people are not affected by the same statistical outcomes as the rest of the world?
Again, both granted, but there is still great disparity when it comes to shidduchim.
Your analysis to AZ of how the problem increases as they get married is correct (although the numbers are way off). However, the disparity is in reverse, because of the fact that the boys are generally older than the girls they marry.
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