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ok living in kollel is very nice i also plan to do it for as long as possible! but everybody grow up look into the future! in the long term how many years of your life are you actually sitting and learning in kollel most ppl are not able to do it for 40-50 years after they are married. you learn for a couple of years and then you go out to work! so does it really matter?
binahyeseira & Ofcourse-
The two of you asked me for my opinion as to what can be done to help the situation. After thinking about it for some time I decided to put some ideas forward. Please keep in mind that everything I write is my personal opinion (and may or may not be correct). I represent no one besides myself nor have I discussed this with anyone else on a serious level.
Also, if I offend anyone please forgive me in advance, it is definitely not my intention.
The biggest issue (again, this is strictly my opinion) is that Shadchannim are out of control and needed to be reined in. One can think “What’s the big deal, if I don’t like the idea I can always say ‘No’ right?”.
Not so simple! With the terror tactics many Shadchannim have been using (at least when I was dating) it’s not so easy to just say “No”.
It came to the point where my friends and I had to break off all contact with specific “Professional” Shadchannim. A guy in yeshiva has the liberty to tell a shadchan to never call back, but take a girl from an out-of-town city with no yeshiva for guys over 21. If she doesn’t have any older brothers or cousins then shadchanim are her lifeline, guys breaking off contact with shadchanim sever the lifeline for these girls.
My idea would be for a board or committee to set a list of guidelines that shadchanim have to follow in order to be certified. Any shadchan breaking any of the guidelines will be banned from practicing for a certain amount of time up to and including a lifetime ban for serious or repeated violations. There would also be a monetary fine to pay for the date in a case where the shadchan lied about something where the date could not have worked out to begin with i.e. telling a Kohen that a Geyores is an FFB.
The list would consist of some rules which should be obvious but apparently isn’t. (If someone wants to start a thread about “Shadchannim Horror Stories” I have some to share but it is out of the scope of this thread.)
1. Don’t lie- If someone asks a question it usually means that it’s important to them. It’s not up to you to decide what’s important or not.
2. Don’t stalk- I found it creepy when Shadchannim found out who I previously dated and who I was currently dating. It’s none of your business and if you “happened” to have found out somehow you are not allowed to share this information!
3. Don’t give my name out without my permission- If I never asked you to put my name on your list but you got it from my yeshiva please ask me before distributing it. It’s not fair to my friends, neighbors, Rabbeim and relatives to get numerous calls about me when I can’t possibly date all of them anyway. It’s also not fair to me to get a reputation as a guy who says “no” to everyone.
4. Don’t use excessive pressure- If it’s a “no” then it’s “no”, if I need more information then I’ll let you know.
There were times that I had to agree to go out just to get the Shadchan of my back. Those dates never helped anyone and just worsened the age gap.
Let me bring a simple example with extremely exaggerated parameters to amplify the situation.
An island starts out with 100 males and 100 females all aged exactly 21 at time t = 0. At the end of each year an additional 100 males and an additional 100 females (all aged exactly 21) join the island. Males can only marry females their age or younger. Consequently, females can only marry males their age or older. Each person is only allowed to date one person at a time and is limited to one unique date every two months. Mortality, growth and the divorce rate is 0.
Let’s say after one year 50 couples get married, that means that by t = 1 there are 50 males and 50 females that are 22 and 100 males and 100 females that are 21.
The pool size for a 22 year old male is 150, while the pool size for a 22 year old female is only 50.
So time is of essence. By Shadchannim forcing dates on others (where at least one party knows it’s not going to work), it just wastes precious time.
Once that timer hits t = 1 and the new crop comes in, the probability of many of those original females getting married is severely reduced.
Again- the above is only my opinion.
Feel free to challenge (or add to) anything mentioned- but in a civilized manner or I will not respond.
There’s a metaphysical benefit to learning which can’t be factored that way.
Exactly why the Roshei Yeshiva tell people to stay in learning.
Dr. P: I don’t see how its possible to enforce bans, or even fines, on them. They will just continue practicing despite them, as long as people listen to their suggestions, in spite of any assesed penalties.
Exactly why the Roshei Yeshiva tell people to stay in learning.
The difference is that it’s not just a benfit for those learning, it’s a benefit fot Klal Yisroel as a whole (I’m not talking about “sitting in Kollel”, I’m talking about learning).
Mah she’ein kein with the shiduchim, where what might be better for a particular individual (or many individuals), is not necessarily a benefit for the broader society.
Dr. Pepper – thanks for responding. i agree with almost everything you wrote, especially about the shadchanim. the same pressure to go out and to go out again when it is not appropriate, and the lies, are told to the girls’ side also. Not only does it keep the boys and girls busy with dates not appropriate for them, it can cause them to get depressed and/or burnt out and not date effectively, which is not good for anyone.
my only comment about the island situation is that in “real life”, people do get divorced, widowed, come in from other islands, swim to other islands, change what they’re looking for, etc.
but your point about licensed shadchanim is excellent.
about the don’t stalk – i once had a shadchan who knew a boy who flew to my city to go out with me. she wanted to figure out who he was dating. since she suspected it was me, she called me up to find out if i was busy (claiming she had someone for me).
after we broke up, she never called back with her idea. it was all a ruse so she can know who is going out with whom.
and the don’t lie statement: i agree 100 percent.
veteran: lol!
sorry, re-thought about what you wrote and realized that my comment about the island is irrelevant to the point you were making. my island point is only for those who insist that they will solve the shidduch crisis if a guy would only go out with girls who are within a certain age range.
Pac-Man-
As far as enforcing the ban goes- the guys would happily say “I’m sorry but your credentials have been suspended/ revoked. Unfortunately I can’t take any names from you or I’ll be going against Daas Torah”.
Hopefully the girls and their parents will see that it is in their long term best interest to avoid dealing with any Shadchanim who violate the policies.
Concerning the fines- my father has a novel approach for the illegal immigration problem that he will implement as soon as he is elected president. The Pepper Administration will provide a large amount of cash to the leaders of each country every year- say $10,000,000. Every time an illegal immigrant comes in $1,000 is deducted plus all expences (hospital, jail…). Let’s see how fast the leaders stop their citizens from skipping the border.
There are many cities that offer cash incentives to shadchannim to find husbands for the single girls in their communities. If one doesn’t want to pay the fine then just hold it from their next bonus. (Or there could be a system of having them be fully bonded, like your plumber and electrician, before being certified.)
I agree it’s easier said than done, but there are painful steps that have to be taken.
binahyeseira-
OK,
Here’s where I got stalked…
A neighbor had a suggestion for me at the same time that the most dreaded shadchan I ever dealt with also had an idea.
In all fairness to both girls I took all their information and did a normal amount of research. The girl that the neighbor suggested, despite being a 3-4 hour drive, sounded more promising.
So who thinks you could just say “no” to a shadchan and just hang up? Not me. I answered no, saying that not only did I feel that she wasn’t for me, I was also busy (and refused to give any more information).
So she decided to up the pressure. She found out who I was going out with, where she lived and when I was going out. She had her girl fly out to the same city and she let me know that “just in case it doesn’t work out… while you’re still in the dating mode… still have a rental car… she’s right there, ready to go out on a moments notice”.
I told her that I never think about another shidduch, no matter how bad the current one is going, until it’s over and both parties know about it. (This is just my opinion, but I think it would be very offensive if a girl I finished dating found out I was dating someone else before the shadchan informed her that it was over.)
Anyway, the girl I went out with that weekend said no and somehow the shadchan found out right away. (It wasn’t me that told her.)
Cranking that valve, she upped the pressure even more. (Did anyone deduce that I wasn’t answering my phone when she called?) Next she got a friend involved. This friend had dated her but ended it. She told him that because he said no, “you owe it to her to get your friend Avi to go out with her”.
He agreed with me that she wasn’t for me, but asked for a humanitarian favor from me to go out with her so the shadchan will leave him alone.
Upping the pressure even more, the shadchan got other shadchanim involved until I buckled. It was worth it though- I was able to breathe normally again (albeit briefly…) afterwards.
Ofcourse-
Please reread my original post and the one I just left for binahyeseira.
Point # 1. It’s not always possible to “just say no and hang up”, they have their terror tactics and show no sign of relenting. Also, that was just one of the many issues regarding Shadchanim that need to be seriously addressed.
Point # 2. You missed a critical word: Competent. We already have a severe shortage of competent Shadchanim… Getting rid of the ones who don’t belong there will make the crisis better, nor worse.
I’m happy to hear that you found your husband, but as the saying goes “even a broken clock shows the correct time twice a day”.
The vast majority of shadchannim have a batting average of .1 or less. Unfortunately no one takes statistics on them like they do for baseball players.
P.S. If your a shadchan and a mentch then in no way are these posts referring to you.
that is insane!
but why on earth did the girl fly to that city????
sounds like you’re talking about totally revamping the system. People are giving money for every crazy idea, why can’t people figure out what really would help to get many more singles married off?!?
of course – it can be very difficult to say no to a shadchan. i once did research about a guy suggested. i said no because my i found out that he was not able to learn on the level i needed my husband to be on. i refused to give a reason, because i knew the shadchan would just argue with me. the shadchan did research, found out who i spoke to, what they said, and told me that nobody can know how well someone else learns.
Anyways, i felt forced to go out with the guy – easier than arguing forever. i could tell that the guy did not know how to learn just by talking to him on our date.
(and for those who say that if a girl who doesn’t learn can’t know if a guy can or can’t – you’re wrong. there’s a certain amount of intelligence and logic that a person needs to be able to learn in a “lomdishe” way, and although being single, i didn’t know that term, i knew what i needed).
binah – off topic, but what was the reason you needed your husband to be able to learn on a higher level?
In defense of shadchanim, not that I’ve dealt with so many, they’re not so bad, though I had one disconcerting experience I won’t go into.
And yes, learning is what makes the world go round. (And dare I say, even the learning of working men from 5 – 9.) What we need is a climate of chanoch l’naar, and bachurim having someone they deal with on a personal level, instead of just hearing the herd shmooze. Please don’t think I’m knocking such a shmooze. We can’t afford to bash our gedolim, roshei yeshiva, etc. or to add to the cynicism. We have to be machshiv these people to the best of our abilities. But we also have to nurture and encourage our kids to have very personal relationships with good mentors, who will tell them what they need to hear.
Ofcourse-
Good for you & keep it up. If all shadchanim were like that perhaps the situation would be quite different.
A shadchan who twists someones arm like that is (in my opinion) like a doctor who performs a surgery that he’s not licensed to. It may work out well for some patients but regardless of the outcome- the board will revoke his license.
I’m glad it worked out good for your daughter but think about the catastrophic consequences that others may have gone through in a similar case.
tzippi-
Males and females obviously have different feelings towards shadchanim.
From what my wife tells me, the ones I consider the worst of the worst, her friends consider their saviors.
Let me know if you have the same attitude towards them when you marry off a son.
Dr. Pepper,
Having read your post, I want to clarify; do you think licencing shadchanim should replace the encouragement of closer-in-age shidduchim, or supplement it?
Dr. P:
So you are advocating delegitimizing Shadchanim your wife’s friends believe are great Shadchanim. What convinces you that your wife’s side are so wrong that you would revoke those Shadchanim’s license to redt?
binahyeseira-
Sorry I missed your question before.
I was curious about the same thing. On the date I starting talking about that city and asked her if she was ever there. When she said she was just there two months ago I asked her if it was to date or to visit friends/ relatives. She mentioned that she didn’t go on a date then but she quickly changed the topic. I left it at that.
DaasYochid-
I’m not sure what you’re getting at. My position has always been that the “age gap” is a problem but not the root of the cause. It’s my belief that there are many “roots” causing the age gap. I picked shadchanim to start off with because they are the biggest problem.
Hypothetically, if all shidduch issues were resolved, there would be no shidduch crisis and no age gap to close.
Pac / Man-
My wife and her friends didn’t know what was going on on the other side. My wife was shcoked and horrified when she found out.
(How many girls do you think would go out with a guy if the shadchan admitted that “after 2 months of constant harassment, stalking and threatening he finally agreed to go out with you just so that I leave him alone?”)
If I was a female and got a call from a shadchan who said, “I told this guy about you and he wants to go out. Can you let me know by next week if your interested. Here are some references… if you have any questions feel free to call me”, I’d have lots of gratitude for this person.
Ofcourse-
There are many issues causing the shidduch crisis, and in my opinion the crisis is causing an age gap which spirals the crisis to catastrophic proportions.
(It has been mentioned by others that even if the crisis was resolved there would still be many single girls that wouldn’t find a husband.)
Let’s categorize those involved in shidduchim into three categories,
1. The males (and parents),
2. The females (and parent),
3. The Shadchanim.
All three, in my opinion, are partially responsible for the situation, although they share different percentages of the blame.
The males- they are partially to blame, but let’s face it, they run the market and as long as things stay the way they are, they have no incentive to change.
The females- it’s much easier, in my opinion, to be a “good girl” than a “good guy”. When these girls reject guys because they feel they deserve better- who says they would be better than the guy that they just rejected had they been a male? Eventually most of them realize what they are deserving of, but by that then lots of precious time has been wasted. Recall from above how the pool of guys gets smaller and smaller for a girl as time goes on but the pool of girls gets larger and larger for a guy as time goes on.
The Shadchanim- I started with them because I feel that they are the biggest problem. Please read my above posts again to see why. If you want some more stories about their outrageous behavior please let me know. A guy has the liberty to tell a shadchan to never call back (not that they listen). Once guys break off communication with a shadchan it is harder for certain girls (particularly the ones who live out-of-town and have no older brothers) to get dates with them.
There was only one professional shadchan I dealt with that acted in a proper manner. When I called her to thank her for being honest, patient and non-aggressive she said, “why would I want to lie? these girls where my students, lying would hurt them and I’d never want them to be hurt”.
If you only suggest shidduchim in a respectful manner then please continue to do so. May Hashem help you succeed.
Dr. P,
I wasn’t familiar with your position, but now that I am (at least more so), I will tell you why I disagree.
Since, as you agree, there is a disparity in the number of girls and boys “on the market”, even if every other issue were solved, there would still be many girls unmarried!
The reason the shadchanim harass the boys is because it’s so hard for some of the girls to get someone to go out with them.
With all of the problems in shidduchim (shadchanim, picky boys, picky girls, money demands, unreasonable parents, etc.), the vast majority of the boys are married within a year or two of starting to look. The major issue is that there are just not enough of them for the amount of girls there are.
Even if you were to argue that many boys are being delayed because of pointless dates (and despite your anecdotes, it’s doubtful that this is really such a major issue, as frustrating as it might be), if the mentality would be to marry someone the same age, any boy who was delayed would marry someone his age anyhow, and not contribute to the age gap problem.
Dr Pepper- why do you think its easier to be called a good girl than a good guy?
DaasYochid-
Thanks for your opinion, but I’m not quite sure what you are disagreeing on.
There is a disparity in part because of the “age gap”. In my opinion, if every other issue was resolved the age gap would get smaller and the amount of single girls would go down.
I agree that shadchanim act that way because of the difficulty they have getting guys to agree to go out with the people they suggest. This doesn’t mean it’s right and they are shooting themselves in their feet.
I also agree that the vast majority of boys are married within a year or two despite all the problems (of which I fully agree with all the ones you mentioned). One of the reasons are, like I mentioned previously, that even when a guy starts dating, his pool will be much larger than the pool of a girl who firsts starts dating. In general, his pool will continue to increase while hers will continue to decrease. Another one of the reasons are, again like I mentioned above, is that it is much easier for a girl to fit the mold of what a guy is looking for than for a guy to fit the mold of what a girl is looking for. Hence the guys get married much faster than the girls do.
I even agree with your last point. What you have to realize is that guys run the shidduch market and I can’t think of any realistic way this is going to change. Like I mentioned before- when it comes to finding a shidduch- no guy is going to feel that he was placed on this planet to end the shidduch crisis and therefore he should only date a girl his age. A guy is going to look for the girl that best fits what he’s looking for, whether five months younger or five years younger. What the girls have to do (and I agree that it’s totally unfair and skewed) is to make themselves attractive (not in a physical sense) to guys closer to their age.
Ofcourse-
Unfortunately from the ones my friends and I dealt with this is far from the case.
Regardless of the percentages, the nasty shadchanim make it harder for everyone else (the shadchanim who try to do things the proper way, the guys and the girls).
It came to the point where I refused to take any names that came from a professional shadchan, I relied on friends and neighbors.
Just curious- I see that you married off a daughter, do you have any sons in the parsha or married?
The problem with shiduchim has nothing at all to with age. The issue is that many of these older girls are way more educated then the yeshivah bachur who is learning in the BM the last few years. The girls seems to be more worldly and way independent than they were some twenty – thirty years ago. When it comes to a date the guy is going to be dicussing a chidush from a Ritvah or a Ran and the girl is going to be discussing the Bio-medical cure for heart attacks (chalilah) or the difference between the white and red blood cells. Let’s face it, today we live in a world where many things are about kesef and if the guy does not move himself out into world (business, law, or medical), he’s going to have major tzaros when it comes to shiduchim.
skiaddict-
There’s lots to say on this and now is not a good time (1:21 A.M.) bli nader I’ll add more later.
For starters, a guy in yeshiva is expected to be at shachris every morning on time, 7 days a week. In a yeshiva setting this means 7:00 to 7:30 or so six days a week and probably 8 something on Shabbos. Very few guys have a perfect attendance, and trust me (I did have a 100% perfect attendance through my yeshiva career) it is very hard.
How would a girl feel about going out with a guy who slept through shacharis twice a month? How about three or four times? Yet what time to some of these girls wake up if they don’t have work one day or if they only have college in the afternoon?
What makes these girls think that if they were males they’d be from the extreme minority that always makes it to shacharis on time?
Someone once asked me to suggest a shidduch to a certain girl, when she found out that he missed shacharis about 3 or 4 times a year she nixed the idea. She told me that her brothers never miss shacharis and neither will any guy that she goes out with.
I’m not quite sure who she was fooling (definitely not me, I was in yeshiva with her brothers and I knew what was going on).
This same girl admitted that she davens shachris around noon when she only has to work in the afternoon, but “I always make zman krias shma…”.
BR29:
The guy discussing a Ran and Ritvah is on a much higher level than the gal discussing bio-meds.
Additionally, the facts on the ground and the reality is that the girls are having a hard time in Shidduchim while the guys, by and large, are having a piece of cake and control the situation.
real brisker-
if you looked in the seforim you would see that the zohar and the kisvei ari both talk about this topic and explain that it is a merit to have ur shidduch said in a bas kol… i.e. those are special people. Also, even if urs was mentioned, you can still change the gezeirah for better or worse thru choiser hishtadlus, aveiros, or tefillah. However, assuming ur main point was that as long as ur trying u shud hav bitachon that everything hashem does is for the best,i agree w u
Furthermore, girls who are way too worldly or independent are hurting themselves. It is like them growing a beard. They are experiencing the problems they are, precisely because of that. A girls place is in the home, not in the world.
Thanks for your opinion, but I’m not quite sure what you are disagreeing on.
I’m disagreeing with what extent of the problem is age-gap related, and what extent is from other causes.
Once faced with the magnitude of the age gap issue, everything else pales (especially considering that, as we agree upon, most boys are married early in their “dating career”).
Hence, while I can relate to your frustration with your experience with pushy shadchanim, I can’t agree that it’s a significant part of the problem.
Similarly, I can also relate to the frustration of a family with a girl who doesn’t seem to get much interest because of a financial issue or something similar, but I can’t attribute the overall shidduch disparity to financial issues (although b’derech hateva, it very well might contribute to the problem for specific families).
I also disagree that all efforts are futile since the boy will anyway go out with whomever he wants. I believe the NASI initiative began with monetary incentives to shadchanim. Hence, faced with more choices of the more mature girls, the boys would be more likely to go out with one. Anecdotally, the stigma of a boy marrying a girl the same age or even older than him seems to have been drastically reduced, and some shadchanimm, at this point only motivated by altruism, do try to redt the older girls first.
DaasYochid-
It looks like we’re going to have to agree to disagree as to “what extent of the problem is age-gap related, and what extent is from other causes”.
I agree that the “age gap issue” is a significant issue but I still believe that it is not the root of the cause, it’s a byproduct.
If there is a realistic way to get guys to drop their insane demands then that’s good news. If it’s been tried and has been showing some signs of success then I stand corrected and hope it continues. (I’ve been out of shidduchim for many years now so I wouldn’t know either way. Even when I was in shidduchim, my friends and I were not the type to make ridiculous demands.)
Getting rid of the stigma sounds like a great idea, without this I believe that there will always be somewhat of an age gap.
However, the nasty shadchanim and their despicable tactics, have to be brought under control.
OC: Perhaps some like girls with beards. But it cetainly isn’t the norm.
I agree that the “age gap issue” is a significant issue but I still believe that it is not the root of the cause, it’s a byproduct.
If all shadchanim were the most wonderful people in the world (and I’m not saying they’re not, I’m just assuming they’re not for the sake of discussion), how would the age gap issue be solved? The 22 year old boys would still be redt (in the most relaxed, pleasant fashion) the 19 year old girls, and would still marry them!
(I’ve been out of shidduchim for many years now so I wouldn’t know either way. Even when I was in shidduchim, my friends and I were not the type to make ridiculous demands.)
Same here (the difference is I never encountered a nasty shadchan, B”H); I’m assuming there’s some validity to the claims that it’s not that way nowadays, just because I hear it so much.
” why do you think its easier to be called a good girl than a good guy?”
Because if s/o doesn’t like the boy, they have no qualms speaking bad -whether true or false. Been the victim of this, umpteen times!
People usually don’t dislike girls and even if they do, they are quite hesitant to speak bad about them.
I see assertions made here that more close in age shidduchim today are being made than were 5 years ago. Where is the proof that is in fact the case? I don’t see any evidence of it.
While I don’t have the solution to the shidduch crisis, I think there are several factors that have contributed to the situation:
First, there is the issue of going out with more than one person at a time. I know that the Rabboninim have come out against multiple dating, however, if he is free and she is free, I don’t think there is anything wrong with going out for a look/see first date. Many a girl has lost out because she had already said yes to person #1 when another suddenly became available and she had to say no to person #2. Then, by the time she goes out with person #1 and it’s a no go, and she wants to move to person 2, he is no longer available because he moved to the next girl on the list. Months and months are wasted waiting for person 2 to become available again or for another shidduch to materialize. By the time a girl is 25, she could have lost out on a number of shidduchim because of timing.
Also, because person #2 has been suggested and may sound more interesting than person #1 and because the girl might think person #2 is in the wings waiting, she might not give person #1 the same attention she might otherwise have given him had person #2 not been suggested. So she goes through the motions of going out with person #1 and rejects him, thinking person #2 is on the horizon, but by that time, person #2 has moved on to the next prospect on his list. So she is left with no one.
The second factor that has contributed to the shidduch crisis is the tremendous peer pressure to marry a learning boy. There are many fine learners out there who opt for various reasons to go to college and still have a seder at night. These YU types are many times written off and not even considered and many a fine bochur is missed out on because everyone wants “the best boy in Lakewood.” Each potential shidduch should be evaluated on his or her own merits but many times people use their checklist and if he or she doesn’t meet all the requirements, they are rejected. Years down the road, the bochrim and the girls would be thrilled with some of the suggestions they rejected when they were younger.
We need to be a little more lenient permitting girls to go out with more than one shidduch at a time when it is a first look/see date. Much time is lost otherwise.
Lechayim120,
Halevai a girl should have an issue because two boys agreed to go out with her!
Anyhow, it’s not a great idea because it’s hard to really focus properly on one person while simultaneously (not literally) seeing someone else.
I’m wondering why were seeing suggestions that “litvish” BY type girls should go out with “YU types”, but no suggestions that they should go out with chassideshe boys.
DY – Do you think Litvish girls with Chasidish boys is a more palatable or appropriate scenario than with YU boys?
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