A third of Litvish families I know, have one or more single daughters 25 and up

dr. pepper – you’re right that it’s not gonna change anything, but we’d like to hear your opinion also.

sorry guys – no girl will go for polygamy. marriage is hard enough with one husband and one wife.

I would rather share a husband than not have one at all.

binahyeseira – “sorry guys – no girl will go for polygamy. marriage is hard enough with one husband and one wife.”

True, in Western society it would be next to impossible to impose this on women. But you should know in the Middle Eastern society it occurs right now, not to common, but it exists. Middle Eastern doesn’t include E. Yisroel, which is a Western society. I know s/o from Iran (Frum) whose father has two wives and he has families from both and they each have separate houses. And people here in the CR (in the Immoral marriage topic) actually claim who cares what goyim do, we don’t have anything to do with them.

We are so influenced by goyim -you can’t imagine how much. The avg. Jewish woman here in our society could never imagine letting their husband be married to s/o else! Why? Because it’s against the Goyishe society.

Squek:

I’m not sure which letter you are qouting. The letter I posted earlier from 70 R”Y made 3 very clear points

1. the primary cause of the shidduch crisis is age gap

2. They called upon the community to give preference to close in age shidduchim and at the very least to give preference to girls who are age 20 and up.

3. They called upon the shadchanim to focus on close in age shidduchim and at the very least to give preference to girls 20 and up.

as such, your statement “the RY did not say anything other than that “close in age” shidduchim are a good thing” is simply not accurate.

Important post script: it is neither, my data, my analysis, nor my conclusions. Please don’t give me credit that’s not due.

why aren’t the Lakewood rabbeim insisting that guys only date girls within a certain age range?

Because they prefer to recommend, rather than insist; why make a “gezeira” which many won’t follow (they’re not Chaza”l to make a gezeira anyway).

#health — I don’t think that Rabbenu Gershon was influenced by the goyishe society

Of Course: incorrect.

Litvishe girls starting (“becoming desirbable”) at 20/21 would be the solution, not the problem. Girls starting at 18 – that is the problem.

To be clear. I am NOT advocating/asking/instructing the girls to wait, i’m simply making a observation.

AZ: it’s only a problem if the boys don’t start at 18 also. If they do, then there is no problem.

“Take the girls up to YU. Lots of available single males, all shomrei torah umitzvos.”

I suggested this to the mom of an unmarried yeshivish young woman. Mom didn’t have a problem with it, but the young woman herself rejected it out of hand, as she had been brainwashed into thinking that YU is treif.

“Besides isnt that illegal in the US? (not that it cant change at the rate we’re going…)”

It is indeed illegal but there hasn’t been a prosecution for it in decades.

“The basis of the age gap theory is about as statistically sound as charliehall’s quote about Medicare overhead being 1/5th that of private insurance. “

Sorry, but it is a fact.

And it is also a fact that as long as equal numbers of boys and girls are born each year, an increasing population means that girls will have to accept younger husbands if they are ever going to get married.

“Girls (parents) should seriously start with shidduchim at 18 barring extraordinary circumstances, and in any case discuss with g’dolei and manhigei Yisroel how to proceed.”

Boys, too — at least according to the Mishnah.

If 18 years old guys starting dating we would have a divorce crisis.

The reason the takana ended after 2000 years, is because it was a takana for 2000 years (so they say).

Rabbeinu Gershom was certainly not influenced by western society.

They want to marry girls who are shomrei torah umitzvos.

What we have here is a common sense gap.

Fact: There are slightly more boys born than girls. Boys are more fragile medically, so in societies where there is poor health care the ratio at adulthood is basically 1 to 1. In societies like ours with better health care those “extra” boys survive, so there are slightly more adult men than women until late middle age, when men have more heart attacks, etc., and the ratio goes down.

So what are we doing wrong? Some possibilities

1. It’s pretty obvious that if boys start dating at 22 and girls at 19 there are always going to be two years’ worth of girls unmarried.

2. The consumer mentality has taken hold – “Only the best is good enough for my son” which is actually “Only the best is good enough for ME.” It also leads to an unrealistic feeling of entitlement on the part of the boy, which doesn’t help the marriage to work out.

3. The emphasis on money so that the boy – whatever his own talents and wishes – should continue learning indefinitely – is leading to a real inversion of our values.

4. While there are also girls going off the derech, most of those OTD in the early ’20s are boys, amking things even more imbalanced.

5. It’s possible that some single girls are staying single because they consciously (or more likely, unconsciously) don’t want to end up in the “Wonder-woman” syndrome trap – working, having a baby every two years, taking care of the house and putting together fabulous yon-tov menus, and going from one day to the next feeling exhausted, with no end in sight, while the husband either sits and learns or works at some unskilled job which is all he can get because he has no secular education.

While I don’t have any solutions that are workable in our current state of mind, I can make one prediction: as the generation of “older girls” continues to get older, we are going to have a new wave of dropouts – not boys who can’t fit into yeshiva but girls who aren’t allowed to fit into the “wife-mother” role because they haven’t been allowed to. Then, we will have some very bitter souls who rightfully blame us and transfer that blame to Torah life in general. And many, of course, will drop out quietly, perhaps (hopefully) eventually marrying those boys who dropped out ten years before.

Whatever happens, we’re in big trouble. The RYs at BMG and the other BH yeshivas need to do a din v’cheshbon on our social situation, and show some leadership. If the Gedolim after the war could virtually invent the modern yeshiva, surely their grandsons can invent the tikkunim needed to adapt it to the current situation of frumkeit in the US.

Da’as Yochid. the Shulchan Aruch does not pasken like Kiddushin 82. Look in O. Ch. 156. Achronim explain that Kiddushin 82 was meant for yechidei segula.

PBA. I think your comments are made in light of preconcieved notions and biases. My comments are especially true for girls dating 2-3 years whose pie in the sky dreams and hashkafos foisted upon them by seminaries have worn off.

Pac: correct and thus if you are succesful in overhauling the livtvishe yeshiva system to have the boys begin dating at 20 – more power to you. (I am neither agreeing or disagreeing as to whether that would be a good idea, and truth be told my opinion is really ireelevant as that’s for the leaders of the generation to decide and implement. I’m simply pointing out the obvious, that it would greatly alleviate the age gap problem.)

I for one prefer to work with attainable solutions which is why I’m such a big fan of what the NASI project has been doing over the last few years.

Nothing radical – just slowly but surely encouraging close in age shidduchim. Slowly but surely generating more attention for the girls who didn’t just start dating. and coming soon – The boys starting to date slightly younger.

Of Course: of course you are correct 🙂 I was simply re-stating your point. But the girls do start at 19 and many get married then or very early 20.

To realistic guy: here are three words that will close the Moebus strip of endless discussion – Chemotherapy as Metaphor.

Let me preface my remarks by saying that, of course, I am not very familiar with the “shidduch” system. Even the frum people that I know found their mates on their own. So, what I have to say are simply opinions that I have made from reading this, and other threads in the CR.

OfCourse – you said:”Litvishe dont because the guys mothers generallly speaking (outside of Roshei Yeshiva families) want a girl who has completed her education and who brings in a nice salary. This is possibly part of the problem. They become desirable at 20/21 and old at 24/25.”

To me, it seems that 6 months or a year at a seminary, does not an education make. Yes, the girls get well educated in frumkeit and running a wonderful home. This does not make them good “job” material. They have no qualifications to obtain an extremely well paying job that can maintain a household, pay tuitions, etc. in order for their husbands to learn full time. The only way that they can become good earners is by getting some type of professional designation. Of course, to do that they must remain in school for a few more years which apparently puts them past the prime marriage age. It seems that this issue is like a hamster on a wheel – getting nowhere because you cannot please everyone. If it pleases a boy, his wife and family (who need to kick in with some support money), then why should anyone have any objections to how long the boy studies full time. The only problem that I see is the fact that they can study for years and years and in the end, they still aren’t qualified wage earners (for the most part). Again, the hamster on the wheel or a dog chasing his tail. That is all that I have to say for now. Please, feel free to criticize – I am sure many of you will, but this is my take on the subject – and on this topic, I really am an outsider looking in.

minyan gal: A critical point that you are not considering is that many of these people looking to get married have no interest in ever supporting themselves. Their end plan is support from government, Shver and their community (in the form of tuition assistance). It make it much easier for a boy to want to sit and learn when that is the plan.

Nice just means something above zero, but still low enough to qualify for government health benefits and tuition discounts. These mothers don’t want their sons marrying doctor/lawyer types, who will be able to support their family.

OTB: I don’t think you are over-simlifying at all……..

you are just simply not accurate.

In fact what you posit may even be true, as a result of the crisis. Remeber the mashal of musical chairs…

A R”Y signing in favor of the ideas of NASI is agreeing to the societal benefit, but not necessarily that it’s to the benefit of a particular individual.

That is exacly what I have said previously regarding going to work vs. staying in learning.

but on an individual basis, it might or might not be.

exactly. so you, your rav, and everyone in the cr will in the end be hopefully looking for the zivug that is best for your child, irrespective of whether the age-difference is 6 months or 4 years.

ooking for the zivug that is best for your child, irrespective of whether the age-difference is 6 months or 20-40 years.

That adds a whole new dimension to grandparents suggesting shidduchim! I can hear the calls coming in now, “So, Dovid’l, as soon as your Roizy gets back from the seminary plane I vant her to come right down to Boca and meet my neighbor Alter Chaim who nebach just lost his vife a few years ago. She vould be poyfect for him!”