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“I ask: was there ever any person who ever did not get married in their lifetime? “
Offhand, I can think of several people – both men and women, both frum and secular, who never married in their entire lives. Most of them lived well into their 80’s – alone.
Interesting. I would say that less than a third of all families have a daughter over 25 at all.
So if this is true, it means that every family which has a daughter over 25 has at least one single daughter.
Fascinating.
it pains me to say this, but i am not surprised.
this seems a direct resu;t of the litvish situation.
to wit;
1) girls are expected to be money makers. (Smell the coffee) so low earning girls are ejected.
2) Women are expected to work, so those who want to raise their children instead of a “goyte” or at best some unsupervised basement daycare, are also not desireable.
3) after the litvish parents demand a “price” for their son the “tachshit’, they are taken aback when the shoe is on the other foot and they have to fork over mega-bucks to marry off their daughter. (to an alleged mega-masmid)
4) many litvish multi year kollel families were supported by grandparents, it was only a matter of time before the house of cards collapsed, and the girls are the first casuality.
5) I PROPOSE, Support be mandatory EQUAL among both sides. (Let the boys father see if his son is worth it.)( i mean gender equality, if one side can afford more- kol hakovod)
6) Furthrmore, shame on any kollel boy whose combined support of parents, and shver CASH, and wife, and hud and food stamps all this in after tax dollars, shame on you if it is more than your parents and/or shver, and you are still milking them while they shvitz.
i dont think your torah is worth that much, under such circumstances.
If the litvish families will fix the moneey situation, i predict half the girls will get married within the year !1
Baal Boose,
You totally miss the point. There are simply more marriagable girls than boys, but you insist on ranting against the “litvish” system, blaming it, and ignoring the facts.
True, based on the lopsided numbers, the boys (or their parents) can be more choosy, but that’s an effect of the numbers issue, not the other way around.
minyan gal,
I think we all know of people who never marry; that was my point.
When the gemara says that a bas kol (heavenly voice) announces a baby’s future wife, it does not offer a guarantee that everyone will, in fact, get married.
DY. I think it is you who miss the point. Bas ploni, liploni. Nobody was passed over. Everyone born, has a shidduch. The nisayon is finding it, not creating it. Baalboose is spot on that societal stupidity has made it that much more difficult.
The purpose of life is NOT to get married, it’s to serve Hashem, and EVERYTHING is in Hashem’s hands.
Maybe a million Chinese will convert to Judaism and we’ll have too many older boys to choose from! Yes it’s a ridiculous idea, but it’s equally ridiculous to state that an entire generation has no chance of getting married. Who are you to say – are you G-d???
apushatayid,
Bas ploni, liploni. Nobody was passed over. Everyone born, has a shidduch.
Do you know the source in the gemara for “Bas ploni, liploni”? Look at Tosafos there.
Besides, where does it say that bas kol was for everyone, maybe it was just for those who have a “bas ploni” designated, but some don’t.
If, lo aleinu, a young child is niftar, was there a bas kol for that child?
DY. I’m not the ribbono shel olam and I’m not a member of his committee. I don’t know the cheshbonos in shamayim and why things do or don’t happen. I believe that the ribbono she’ll olam created a shidduch for everyone. If you believe otherwise, that’s your perogative.
Why do you assume there was no bas kol for a child that died r’l? If a 20 something jumps off a bridge and dies, do you assume there was no bas kol too? My job is to help someone who wants to get married do so, not wring my hands in despair because someone is 37 years old.
As to what tosfos may or may not say, I have no idea. Why don’t you tell me.
apy: What about the Tosfos DY cited?
Binah”
“and i feel az is addressing probably one of the most insignificant ones.”
Your are of course welcome to your “feelings” however you might be interested to know that 70 R”Y signed a letter disagreeing with you.
the following is the english translation of the letter in it’s entirety- if i was able to post the pdf in the CR i would do so, but i don’t know if/how to do that.)
here goes….
It is well known that our community finds itself in a dire situation in which hundreds of our daughters are getting older without having found their zivug.
With the help of ?’ ??’ it has been recently revealed that the primary cause of this situation is that boys frequently prefer girls who are a few years younger than they. Since every year our population grows, ??? ??? ???, the result is that there are always more girls in need of a shidduch than there are available boys, leaving many girls without a match.
We also call on shadchanim , and all others involved in shidduchim, to see to it, as much as possible, that the ages of the boy and girl are close.
In addition, shadchanim should work primarily for girls who are age twenty and above. Shadchanim who go further and assist older girls will merit ??? ???? ?? ?????.
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One who chooses a shidduch taking into account to help her and her family will be blessed with sons and sons-in-law who are Talmidei Chachamim.
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Why do you assume there was no bas kol for a child that died r’l??
I’m not referring to a case where someone took his own life (which is a shaila in hashkafa altogether if he ca? reduce his allotted time that way; IIRC the Chovos Halvavos says not), but a case where someone was allotted only a few years. It makes no sense that he would have a shidduch set aside if he was not destined to grow old enough to marry.
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I believe that the ribbono she’ll olam created a shidduch for everyone.
I have full faith in the words of Chaza”l, even when I don’t understand them. I just don’t think Chaza”l ever said such a thing.
I PROPOSE, Support be mandatory EQUAL among both sides. (Let the boys father see if his son is worth it.)( i mean gender equality, if one side can afford more- kol hakovod)”
I propose that it be mandatory for ALL men to support their families and learn in their free time. I further propose that parents who struggled to put food on their table while bringing up their kids, be able to finally relax, go to E”Y for a visit if they want, go to a hotel, travel, sightsee, have enough money to take care of themselves, for a change. I propose that the young couples grow up and stop expecting mommy and tatty to be responsible for them, as they are now adults. Otherwise, they are just playing house.
I wonder why the R”Y won’t consider being mevatel the takanah of Rabbeniu Gershom. It would be a cinch to get those numbers evened out. Even pilagshim would go a long way.
I guess that’s why I’m me and not Rav Elyashiv.
Besides R’ Akiva, how many can you name?
look, all i’m saying is that the problem has so many variables; a number of people have listed some of them. there are many more. to solve the problem, we need to create emotionally healthy children and have emotionally healthy parents who know how to and want to look for what is truly best for the child.
az, to me it’s obvious, of course a girl can date a guy around her age, and of course if it’s appropriate the shadchanim should set them up.
i just don’t believe that the age difference is the sole cause or even the main cause of all the unmarried singles. i do believe it’s a great idea to encourage people to think about the older singles, and to think out of the box for what they really are looking for.
my grandmother was older than my grandfather and lived for about a year after he died.
i dated a while ago, but in my experience, once girls were about 24, 25 and certainly close to 30, guys had no problem dating someone a drop older than them. i know of so many couples where the girl is older; they don’t take an ad out of the newspaper, but it has always happened. if you’re creating an awareness for guys who have never considered the possibility, then great.
but, if you are saying that since anyone can marry anyone, let’s set up younger guys with older girls, then I strongly disagree.
a rebbetzin once told me that girls can marry tons of different guys.
Fortunately, i spoke to rabeeinm and a rebetzin who knew me well and agreed with me that that is not the case for me.
Unfortunately, this rebetzin’s daughter took her mother’s advice. She got married at 19 and was divorced with 2 kids a few years later.
the point is not to just get people married off, but to get them happily married off.
(though the more divorces there are, will help your case even more).
maybe i’m wrong, but it sounds to me that a lot of you are looking at the yam suf and saying that it’s impossible for it to split, and the case is hopeless.
all i’m saying is don’t worry how the water will split, just go into the water. Hashem said, he’ll take care of us, so he will.
Yes, set people up – try to help them find their true zivuggim, but don’t worry about all the details – do what’s right for the right reason, and Hashem will take care of the rest.
Da’as Yachid – every single zivug is absolutely truly a nes. i don’t know how anyone can get married at all if they’re not relying on a nes. start asking people how they met and decided to marry. it is absolutely unbelievable the nissim that Hashem performs. My story is so remarkable that if I would tell it anyone who has heard of me would know who i am. but, truly, every story i have heard of is amazing. (just sometimes the nissim are obvious and sometimes they appear more “natural”).
I am a 28 yr old single guy and dont come to this site often but stumbled upon this thread. i have a number of thoughts on this “situation” so bear with me and keep an open mind while you may not agree with all that I am saying understand I am from a frum more yeshivash family background whose very much machshiv torah and while I myself am working would go to no ends to help my future chirldren sit and learn because I beleive in that also realize that there are possible solutions as radical as they are.
First off to address why there are so many girls available I can tell you from experience for the most part its because they are misguided these girls have been told in seminary(ive heard this first hand from girls myself) that if a guy is not going to be sitting in kollel for at least a year or so after they are married there is something wrong with guy…now who says every girl is fit for a kollel guy in marriage and life a working uy can have the same Ideology without sitting and learning all day. These girls have it in their mind that this is the only way and dont realize till its too late that they are terribly wrong. Ive had girls say no to me because I am working I am 28 any guy that you would consider to marry even if he started to learn after marriage would be working by my age so whats the difference? and the guys that are sitting and learning at my age are usually for life and they are not interested in you(because not a good fit you are not that yeshivash!).
I can also tell you that besides for these misguided notions of learning boys you also have the girls who have demands other than that(too picky) years ago a girl would be thrilled when a guy came a calling let alone ask for marriage so where did this change? I am not saying that a girl should not be able to marry who she wishes but understand that there is a basic order(without being a sexist) I am not saying I havent done my share of NOs but then again I get read girls 3 times a week but I can tell you I have gotten more than my shares of NOs maybe I have issues i dont know but i do know I am a mentch so that should be priority number 1 for all girls.
Too say that there is no one to marry these girls I dont believe that I understand the numbers game but every girl I know has had probably two or three guys in their life that have come running after them with basic psychology these girls runaway from these guys I truly believe every girl has had a chance to get married but turned it downed because the guy didnt play it right. I can tell you first hand a number of stories where the girl couldnt stand the guy and eventually they got married and live happily. basically these girls need to take a step back and look at life as a whole and see where their priorities lie and get off their high horse and start being realistic like weve been saying the whole time theres a million fish in the sea so why would a guy settle for a whale!?
Now for the way controversial part 🙂 weve had a takanah for 2000 years about polygamy(which happened to end a few years ago) maybe theres a reason rabenu gershon set it for 2000 years maybe its not a coincidence that it just ended….Now I know all the arguments so save your breath…try handling one wife?…its a minhag we dont change minhagim….like I said its radical idea but can you argue it wouldnt solve this numbers game? forget about any pros and cons that you can bring it was done for a long time and was endorsed by god himself who knows maybe if yackov avenu was narrow minded rochel emeinu would be one of these girls we are talking about. i am not saying this an ideal solution but would love to hear responses to this.
anyways thats just the tip of my iceberg enjoy the reading and looking forward to getting blasted its good thing this is anonymous(it is right?) otherwise I may never get another shidduch.
the point is not to just get people married off, but to get them happily married off.
And as of now, “happy” marriages are legal in NYS.
Realisticguy: hatzlacha. Leaving aside dina demalchus dina, I think that if Rabbeinu Gershom could come back to life if only to consider and consult about renewing the cherem he would do so in a heartbeat as we are no readier for polygamy than we were in his time.
AZ: my contribution to ameliorating the shidduch crisis also includes raising mentschen and hopefully, when I get there, not being a crazy mother of sons. I think that the societal issues are as important a part of the pie as the demographics.
AZ-
Back then I made the decision not to converse online with someone who can not respond in a diplomatic way and I stand behind my decision.
I will not be discussing this with you anymore at this time.
To Daas Yochid,
I will take issue with you on a number of points; however i will try to do it politely.
1) “You totally miss the point”; it is inaccurate to say i missed the ppoint, when there WAS no point, there was only a statistic stated, without editorial. so everyone has to make their own point. You may disagree, but you should strive to be accurate in your arguments.
3) “you insist on ranting” Please use arguments, not denigration and intimidation.
4) “litvish system, blaming it, and ignoring the facts”. Actually it seems i AM using facts. You may disagree with my correlation, but then i would have liked to see a response to what i said. not to what you are afraid i implied.
7) you haven’t addressed the outrage of young couples after all the cash and benefits are making more than their shver/father, yet they have no problem milking them, and frequently against their will. Ever heard of “seudah sh’ein me’sapekes l’balah”? A fine boy would not accept money from shver/father who struggles to pay his own bills. nor would he allow himself to demand more for himself, than the shver/father earns. Contrary to many kollel couples nowadays.
8) “So you think Rabi Akiva was wrong?” Amusing you should choose this example. R’ Akiva took no money from either his shver or father. You did omit other examples, such as all the shoemakers, butchers, and wine merchants in the g’mora.
A) We all know stories of Rosh yeshivas telling boys; “dont settle for less than x amount of dollars”. Doesnt the gmora in Kedushuin say shidduchim based on money is bad for the children?
B) Will the next thread inquire why so many litvisher go off the derech? (yes chasidish also- but they eventually are more likely to come back)
C) what kind of torah allows a yungerman to squeeze his shver/father?
D) If the father will also be forced to participate then fewer non-learners will be able to force payments.
(I Understand there are many (or perhaps most?)kollel whose parents give willingly. but the twofold pressure is there.
SHIDDUCH QUESTION NUMBER 1; HOW MUCH ARE YOU WILLING TO GIVE?
So i conclude, you have criticized me, and disagreed with me, but you haven’t responded to what i said.
The Rambam on the topic (IB 21:8-9):
? ???? ???????? ?? ???–????, ?????? ?????? ??? ???????? ????: ????? “????? ??? ?????? . . . ?? ????” (????? ??,?); ????? ?????, ?? ??? ?????–??? ???? ???, ????? ????? ????, ????? ????? ???? ?????.
? ?? ?? ?? ????? ?? ????, ??? ????? ????–???? ?? ??? ?????, ???? ??? ?? ???? ???; ????? ??? ?????? ?????? ???? ????, ??? ????? ???? ?? ???? ???–???? ??? ????. ????? ?????? ??? ?????, ????? ???? ?????. ??? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ??, ?????? ????? ??????? ??? ??????? ?? ?????? ??? ?????
It would seem that the Rambam has issue with the actual status and not the act itself? What does the Olam think?
I would add, as long as one of the first questions asked is, “how much are they willing to give”, or “how many years will they give”, we have not addressed a major problem.
Doesnt anyone see we have reached a point where boys have a price?
Is this acceptable?
Solve the money demands, and i am convinced a lot more girls will be married.
Dr. Pepper: How can you agree with their goals, without agreeing with their diagnosis and solution? What goals are you agreeing with, and what diagnosis of cause and proposed solution do you disagree with?
Da’as Yachid – every single zivug is absolutely truly a nes.
Yes, but not as much of a nes niglah as having 1,000 boys marry 1,100 girls with no polygamy.
And the fact that we must rely on one nes does not allow us to rely on another.
For those who agree that there’s a number issue which must be addressed, but don’t want to “give up hope” because Hashem can do anything, I agree.
However, there are those who are in denial that there’s a problem because of what is (to the best of my knowledge – I’d love to be shown that I’m wrong) a misunderstanding of the gemara in Sotah that every person will get married. It’s that opinion which I disagree with.
Besides R’ Akiva, how many can you name?
It’s clear from the gemara in Kiddushin and Menachos that it was standard procedure (machlokes Rashi and Tosafos whether for those from E.Y. or those from Bavel).
Rabi Akiva stands out for several reasons, including that he was an am ha’aretz when he left, for the amount of time he was away, and for the specific mesiras nefesh that his wife Rochel had (she became estranged from her family).
“I wonder why the R”Y won’t consider being mevatel the takanah of Rabbeniu Gershom”
Because which girl do you know that would want to be married to a guy who loves two women??? Theres a reason the other one is called a “tzarah”
Besides isnt that illegal in the US? (not that it cant change at the rate we’re going…)
Realistic guy-
“its good thing this is anonymous(it is right?) otherwise I may never get another shidduch.”
How tall are you? I may have a shidduch for u
Pac-Man-
Back to the parable of the friends who went boating…
Hopefully everyone in the boat agrees that the boat is sinking because of the water it is taking in and the solution is to get rid of the water.
There may be different opinions as to why the water is coming in and the best way to get rid of the water, but everyone will agree with the diagnosis and ultimate goal.
I agree with Derech HaMelech and realisticguy that the best solution is recognizing the expiration of cherem d’Rabbeinu Gershom. (And there is no secular law problem with it as long as you don’t register more than one secular marriage.) BTW, the Vilna Gaon was also in favor of polygamy and said he would have liked to reintroduce it if he had the time to convince all the communities of its benefits.
Ofcourse-
I respectfully disagree with your opinion. I wasn’t put on this world to end the shidduch crisis.
Going back some time, I mentioned in the Coffee Room what I felt were valid points and was harshly criticized for voicing my opinion (without explaining why my points had no merit). This forum, or any forum for that matter, is not the proper place to bring up ideas for an issue of this magnitude.
“??? ???’, ??? ??? ??? ?? ?????? ???”
And each one of those males was associated with a bas ploni. Are you learning tosfos that the bas ploni half of the statement was gratuitious? The bas kol didnt really mean it?
Where is this tosfos? The quote also seems to be quoting someone else, who is learning tosfos like that?
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Baal Boose,
1) Sure there was a point, that it’s not a numbers issue, rather it’s the fault of the way the litvish do shidduchim.
2) This is where you missed the point. The problem is that the boys are about three or four years older than the girls they marry, and since our generations are ??”? growing, there are more girls of marriageable age than boys (19-21 is generally marriageable for girls, not boys). My next post will explain in more detail.
3) I was stronger than I usually am because your tone was one of anger at the yeshivas, yeshiva bochurim, and roshei yeshiva.
4) What facts? All (or most) anecdotal observations (some of which I happen to agree with).
6) Yes it’s a problem, and if the numbers were reversed, the problem would likely be too many demands from the girls’ side.
7) Making more than the shver or father? Highly doubtful, certainly conjecture (at best, anecdotal).
8) I was addressing Oomis.
C) Do you advocate instead, that the shver should promise support and then renege? In many cases, the shver willingly tightens his belt to support his son-in-law. I also know of cases in which the son-in-law gave up the support when he realized that his shver was struggling. In (after?) point D), you seem to concede that the norm is not the ungrateful son-in-law squeezing his poor helpless shver, so we may agree on this more than disagree.
D) Your idea of equal support is a fine idea, but how could you expect to mandate it? If the numbers were equal, it would probably pretty much happen by itself.
The age gap theory assumes ( it’s intuitively correct, and, I believe, statistically proven) that more children are born each year into frum homes than in the previous year. There will therefore be approximately 3% more 20 year olds (both male and female) than 21 year olds; 6% more 20 year olds than 22 year olds, and 9% more 20 year olds than 23 year olds.
The problem worsens (percentage-wise) as these singles age. Say for example, in a given year, there are 1100 23 year old boys and 1000 20 year old girls. After 3 years, let’s assume that 900 boys got married. That means that 900 girls got married as well. There are now twice as many girls as boys in this age group.
DaasYochid:
Why do fathers often support their son-in-laws but not their sons?
Why do fathers often support their son-in-laws stay in learning but not their sons (who would also like to)?
I am 28 any guy that you would consider to marry even if he started to learn after marriage would be working by my age so whats the difference? “
EXCELLENT point. I actually tried to redt a shidduch between a very sweet, good-looking, and aidel guy and a lovley girl who is known to a member of my family. Both parties had been married to other people for a short period of time each, got divorced and then have not married for many years. He looks a GREAT deal younger than his actual age. Why did the shidduch not go anywhere?
Because, though the fellow is very sweet, nice looking, and balabatish, and he has a decent job, at his age of close to forty (he looks half that), he wants to sit and learn after he gets married (again). At thirty-plus, the young lady has no desire for a husband to be in kollel at this stage of her life.
Guys AND girls have to be realistic, even in the kollel circles.
DY. I saw the tosfos in sota. Can you please clarify how you understand it?
A third of Litvish families I know, have one or more single daughters 25 and up
Ofcourse:
When calculating your “third of Litvish families”, does that include families who married off all their kids and they are now grand-parents and great-grandparents? Does it include newly married couples? Does it include families where all the children are in grade school?
Or did you exclude those families to reach your “third of Litvish families”, and only count families with shidduch-age children?
“So you think Rabi Akiva was wrong?”
” Amusing you should choose this example. R’ Akiva took no money from either his shver or father. You did omit other examples, such as all the shoemakers, butchers, and wine merchants in the g’mora.”
Very few boys are likely to be a R’ Akiva and we all know it. His shver not only did not support his learning, but he disinherited his daughter for marrying him (regretted it later on, when he saw what his aidem had become). I believe R’ Akiva’s father was not a Jew, though I could be mistaken about that, but if I am correct, there was no parnassah coming from him, either. And the point I would like to make is R’ Yochanan was a shoemaker, Rabbi Yehuda Hanasi was a business man, and many other Gedolim made their own parnassah WHILE learning also. ALL boys should be encouraged by their rebbeim to work and learn. This way Hashem AND their wives will be happy. It worked for my dad O”H, who was an outstanding Talmid Chochom, always was asked to give shiurim. His knowledge of both Torah AND secular studies was phenomenal. A boy who is smart enough to sit and learn, is smart enough to sit and learn PART of the day and learn a trade the rest of the day. In fact the Gemarah says that a man who does not teach his son a trade, teaches him to be a goniff (or something bad like that).
DaasYochid
Member
The age gap theory assumes ( it’s intuitively correct, and, I believe, statistically proven) that more children are born each year into frum homes than in the previous year.
“Statistically proven”!? One man repeating himself ad nauseum doth not constitute proof.
The basis of the age gap theory is about as statistically sound as charliehall’s quote about Medicare overhead being 1/5th that of private insurance. The data is weak and the comparisons are not apples-to-apples. It is almost useless to try and disagree with AZ, as Dr. Pepper has mentioned, but I think it pays every now and then to point out that most independent thinkers have not bought in*.
* Important post script: I don’t CH”V mean to insinuate that the RY who signed are not independent thinkers. I think it is very important for everyone to read the letter carefully and see that the RY did not say anything other than that “close in age” shidduchim are a good thing. I agree that there is no harm in that. But AZ has taken the letter and run with it, pretending that the RY actually endorsed his data and his “analysis” and his conclusions. This is ludicrous.
shein – Why do fathers often support their son-in-laws but not their sons?
That’s not a rule; I know of cases of fathers supporting. It probably is more common that way, though, because of supply and demand. I’m not advocating for it, I’m just saying why I think it is that way.
apy – Can you please clarify how you understand it?
What’s not clear?
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oomis – In fact the Gemarah says that a man who does not teach his son a trade, teaches him to be a goniff (or something bad like that).
Yes , Kiddushin 30b – ??? ????? ???? ?? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ??????: ?????? ?”? ??? ????? ????? ??????
You left out the gemara at the end of the mesechta, 82b – ???? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ?? ?????? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ??? ??? ???? .
Your point wasn’t about squeezing the shver; you said ALL men should work and limit their learning to “free time” (your capitilization).
We can debate how many people are “learning” full time who should be working, and we can debate how many people should be learning more than they do. But B”H your approach is not being followed, or it would be the end of Klal Yisroel as we know it; it would be a tragedy of the first order to stifle the development of talmidei chachomim.
squeak,
Just ask the school administrators whether there are more students in the younger grades, and ask the shadchanim whether they have more names of boys or girls, especially the older ones.
Why would the R”Y bother to sign on it if there’s no point?
Oomis, to become a big Talmud Chocham, one needs to learn full time for many years. I agree, however, that you can not have everybody do it — for financial reasons, and most boys are not cut out for it.
GAW – “It would seem that the Rambam has issue with the actual status and not the act itself? What does the Olam think?”
You gotta stop Paskening from Gemorahs and Rambams and start learning S’A. The S’A quotes the Rambam and says you get Malkous Mardus like the Rambam. I haven’t seen it in awhile, but I think the Achronim say the Rambam held it’s only an Issur D’rabbonim and the Posuk is an Asmachta. I think s/o said/posted here that the Ramban holds it’s a Issur D’orysa! Either way no one holds it’s Mutter even though it’s a Maaseh Kof! In other words, the act (if you can call it that,) itself is Ossur acc. to e/o! And I posted before that you see it’s immoral for even Goyim from the Posuk on Mitzrayim.
i agree with squeak 100%. people see a problem and think they know the causes, and no one can argue with them. if they do, people accuse them of not caring.
problem is there, but if don’t know the true causes, can’t possibly know the solution.
if this is the true one and only answer, why aren’t the Lakewood rabbeim insisting that guys only date girls within a certain age range? the answer is because it’s ludicrous. must look for one’s zivug, not a number!
but, again, kol hakavod for caring – and for trying to set older girls up!
sorry guys – no girl will go for polygamy. marriage is hard enough with one husband and one wife.
veteran -ha ha
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