A Study in Trolls: Updated

KY

“in which case does the victim feel worse. im saying that doesn’t equate with the perpetrator having done an objectively worse crime.”

why not?
You say “he was a king. it was for midos” I dont fully understand your response. Are you saying the two thieves are just as bad?
If so why did Dovid call for such a severe punishment?

“its a limud מאי חזית דדמא דידך סומק מדמא דחברך”

Aha! its a sevara. Ie something we (read: chazal) came up with on our own. They didnt say, “well Shabbos is more chamur becasue it has a more serious onesh and we dont give up our life, so for mere murder for sure don’t give up your life.”

As the Rambam says rotzeach 4:9 (referring to locking in kupa,) וְאֵין עוֹשִׂין דָּבָר זֶה לִשְׁאָר מְחֻיְּבֵי מִיתַת בֵּית דִּין אֲבָל אִם נִתְחַיֵּב מִיתָה מְמִיתִין אוֹתוֹ וְאִם אֵינוֹ חַיָּב מִיתָה פּוֹטְרִין אוֹתוֹ. שֶׁאַף עַל פִּי שֶׁיֵּשׁ עֲוֹנוֹת חֲמוּרִין מִשְּׁפִיכוּת דָּמִים אֵין בָּהֶן הַשְׁחָתַת יִשּׁוּבוֹ שֶׁל עוֹלָם כִּשְׁפִיכוּת דָּמִים. אֲפִלּוּ עֲבוֹדָה זָרָה וְאֵין צָרִיךְ לוֹמַר עֲרָיוֹת אוֹ חִלּוּל שַׁבָּת אֵינָן כִּשְׁפִיכוּת דָּמִים. שֶׁאֵלּוּ עֲוֹנוֹת הֵן מֵעֲבֵרוֹת שֶׁבֵּין אָדָם לַמָּקוֹם אֲבָל שְׁפִיכוּת דָּמִים מֵעֲבֵרוֹת שֶׁבֵּינוֹ לְבֵין חֲבֵרוֹ.

Sure in some (many/most ?) regards some aveiros are worse than murder. however this does not change that In another regard murder is far worse. I dont pretend to understand how Hashem judges various crimes. But clearly in some aspect murder is worse than Shabbos it has “הַשְׁחָתַת יִשּׁוּבוֹ שֶׁל עוֹלָם” It isnt a stretch at all to say rape too has “הַשְׁחָתַת יִשּׁוּבוֹ שֶׁל עוֹלָם” (As the Torah says “כִּי כַּאֲשֶׁר יָקוּם אִישׁ עַל-רֵעֵהוּ, וּרְצָחוֹ נֶפֶשׁ–כֵּן, הַדָּבָר הַזֶּה.” (devarim 22:26) ) granted the punishment isnt as severe, for whatever reason.
But punishment in of itself is not the sole factor determining severity of an act.

there are different aspects to any aveira. When Sedom set up a bed in which they lengthened and cut legs. They didnt violate any “techincal” sehva mitzvos. It is still abhorent, woprthy of destruction. When dovid heard about the thief, he didnt say “who cares about the details he pays mamon” He was outraged and condemend him to death. now, we dont have din meelch, but I dont understand how you fit the idea that theft is theft

” its bad from a midos perspective (nogea at least for a yid )”
I was asking for a goy.

“killing a father must be a worse מיתה because it’s a worse חטא
Not a difference of לחבירו-למקום”

I dont follow. Could you please elaborate .

“the third is no different then calling a molester a rodef so im not sure why even you would consider that an exception”

because we all know it isnt strictly speaking a case of a rodef. We expand the din rodef for the betterment of society, much as you expanded the din meisis to include zionism. Similarly you seem to be coming around to “and its a violation of personal property rights” (regarding rape). Interesting take, I hear it

NC

“Is there not just a definitive proof that we do or don’t weigh acts based on their punishments? ”

Yes. There are many. Though the best one is Rambam Roteiach 4:9 וְאֵין עוֹשִׂין דָּבָר זֶה לִשְׁאָר מְחֻיְּבֵי מִיתַת בֵּית דִּין אֲבָל אִם נִתְחַיֵּב מִיתָה מְמִיתִין אוֹתוֹ וְאִם אֵינוֹ חַיָּב מִיתָה פּוֹטְרִין אוֹתוֹ. שֶׁאַף עַל פִּי שֶׁיֵּשׁ עֲוֹנוֹת חֲמוּרִין מִשְּׁפִיכוּת דָּמִים אֵין בָּהֶן הַשְׁחָתַת יִשּׁוּבוֹ שֶׁל עוֹלָם כִּשְׁפִיכוּת דָּמִים. אֲפִלּוּ עֲבוֹדָה זָרָה וְאֵין צָרִיךְ לוֹמַר עֲרָיוֹת אוֹ חִלּוּל שַׁבָּת אֵינָן כִּשְׁפִיכוּת דָּמִים. שֶׁאֵלּוּ עֲוֹנוֹת הֵן מֵעֲבֵרוֹת שֶׁבֵּין אָדָם לַמָּקוֹם אֲבָל שְׁפִיכוּת דָּמִים מֵעֲבֵרוֹת שֶׁבֵּינוֹ לְבֵין חֲבֵרוֹ

I elaborate on this in a longer post that (I assume) is awaiting moderation.
Although other aveiras are in some aspects more chamur. In others murder is worse it contains הַשְׁחָתַת יִשּׁוּבוֹ שֶׁל עוֹלָם. OF course severity of an aveira is somewhat based on severity of onesh, this isnt absolute.

KY
“no
its assur from the overall idea of gezel which extends rto personal autonomy over their body as well”

and if gezel wasnt assur you wouldnt know that it was assur.
Look if you want to categorize rape as a form of gezel I’m ok with that. It is a terribly abhorrent gezel. that seems reasonable

“i gave you the page of the rashi”
מאכילין אותו הקל הקל – אם אין לנו דברים מותרים כדי צרכו ויש לפנינו מיני איסורין מאכילין אותו הקל הקל שבהם:

טבל ושביעית מאכילין אותו שביעית – לאחר זמן הביעור שהטבל במיתה בידי שמים והשביעית בעשה:

Yes I saw that, and I responded several times (t o be fair I dont know what posts went up when) that of course for things that we wouldnt know are assur, we only know “how assur” they are based on onesh.
I’m saying that this isnt absolute.

“kluger is the one arguing that we DO infer based on punishment,”

that should read. “solely” Of course we judge to a extent based on punishment as Ive said from the start

Ubiq: On what basis would you assume gezel of kesef is less severe than attacking a divorcee?

Joseph
“On what basis would you assume gezel of kesef is less severe than attacking a divorcee?”

We can ask people who’ve had both done to them

KY
“my neighbor thinks scratching his car is the worst offense you can do
he thinks its at least as bad as murder
how would you respond ?”

I guess I would say “What a Rasha I can’t believe someone did that to your car. If only he did the much less severe act of raping someone.” ???
what would you say?

What would you say to Nosson Hanavi, when asked about the rich thief? Would you say he is just as bad as the poor thief. (Yes beis din treats them the same I’m not disputing that, but is their “badness” the same?)

“your really going to judge severity by peoples feelings?”
not “people” per se, but someone qualified. a King (see derashs haRan regarding the din meelch vs din beis din) A beis din/kehal leadership. See Teshuvas Rivash 399 ” ולפי זה עלה בידינו שהקהל …”יכולים לקנוס בתקנותיהם כפי אשר יראה בעיניה ”

” ועוד שהרי אפי’ בדיני נפשות היו ב”ד מכין ועונשין שלא מן התורה כדי לעשות סייג לתורה ומשום מיגדר מלתא ” See there at length.

“but you’ve given me much to think about
thank you”

thanks for the kind words. Sometimes I get caught up in the excitement of discussions and stick in needless snark . kudos to you for being above that and always posting so nicely

Ubiq
kudos to you for being above that and always posting so nicely
Lol
See my posts to Phil
I have no problem ignoring snark In the context of a discussion.
Such is the way of learning. It means you are passionate about your feelings.
If we were face to face I’d be giving back in kind. It’s just to much effort to type all that extra.
But when someone’s whole position is nothing but snark, well that’s different

Ubiq
You like the Rambam so let’s see what he says
הלכות איסורי ביאה יב-ז ”עון זה אע”פ שאין בו מיתת ב”ד אל יהי קל בעיניך….
פרק יב-יג אל יהי עוון זה קל בעיניך מפני שאין בו מלקות מן התורה שגם…
Now I ask you
What is he worried about?
Why would I think it’s not a serious offense?
The answer is clear, to me at least , from his words.
Because it’s missing the punishment you may think it’s not so serious. So the Rambam needs to tell you that even so,
it is serious.
And that’s the secret of all the exceptions you may find.
The rule, as seen from this Rambam and other places, is that the severity of the crime can be seen from its punishment. Of course there are exceptions. But you or I can’t be the one to decide that.
If the Rambam were to say rape is the most serious crime, I’d have to agree with him (unless of course other ראשונים argued on him)
But he doesn’t.
In the Rambam you brought, he has a whole list of crimes and he neglects to bring rape!
Yes it can be included in some of the general ones he listed, but so can many others, and you can’t prove it belongs there.

Neville, rape is not arayos,
Arayos are forbidden relationships meaning there is an issur with the two people coming together

“On what basis would you assume gezel of kesef is less severe than attacking a divorcee?”

This thread deteriorated from an exercise in “critical thinking” to troll food for a menuval shelo birshus to publicly question whether raping a Jewish woman is no worse than stealing a wallet. What a low for YWN.

me? I didn’t write those posts!

OK mods
You win
☺

Lol joseph
“Now that we’ve concluded that Torah punishments aren’t random”
that was never ,at all ,the discussion

“and are…. related to the severity of the underlying crime”
that was never debated

“and are indicative of… the severity of the underlying crime,”
That was not the conclusion

As for the discussion
“You dumb, mean troll! ”

I agree with 1 of those categorizations.
and I (usually) find you quite hilarious. I get the joke you are quite funny and I enjoy having you around

Neville – you seem to watch a lot of fox news. I agree that if trump would save another poster’s family from a burning building people would still be mad at him but that does not translate here.
I hear your point, but I think (based on reading your posts here) that you have views and trollish thrills (that you’ve admitted to) that would make you unlikely to notice some of the points that would support the ongoing anger. Do I want to provide examples? No, this isn’t a roast. But if you wanted to, you would probably be able to spot them yourself.

haha, I had started making a list as well, just from this thread. But I had a feeling Neville would Segway on dissecting each comment instead of ingesting the whole picture. I also figured I would refrain from roasting.
But Neville, that was what I meant about you being AOC’s writer (before I knew you were black).

Comment: If you hate America than go back to your own country

AOC responding to that comment: trump doesn’t just hate us, he hates minnisota, Wisconsin…. etc.

You can rewrite the comment and then make valid sounding inferences, but it doesn’t change the fact that you rewrote the comment.

” I get the vibe that others read into his comments in an extremely malicious tone while I read them in a more hokey jokey tone.”
well maybe that explains why you don’t get it.

NC

“” I get the vibe that others read into his comments in an extremely malicious tone while I read them in a more hokey jokey tone.””

I too think Joseph is one giant “hokey joke” (probably not the same way as you, but like you I don’t think he ACTUALLY means what he says we just differ on what he actually believes )

But many posters DO take him seriously. Its not one poster one time, it is many posters many times. when people do take offence he never, says “I’m sorry , you took it extremely maliciously, I meant it in more of a hokey jokey way” On the contrary he doubles down on that same tone.

So in short, he knowingly makes comments he knows many take “extremely maliciously” but makes them any way with that knowledge
How i that not trollish behavior (even assuming he believes the underlying message) ?

Neville- i ask in all seriousness (i called a T.O.)
Is the obfuscation deliberate? Several times you’ll stick random sentence fragments together from my posts and pretend either i dont make sense or you dont understand. And if it is deliberate, is it to belittle me, or just to irritate me?
[Seriously wondering emoji]

“those who are easily offended deserve to be offended”
Comments like that convince me it would be pointless to try finding a meeting of the minds.

And my guess is joseph is there as well! Enjoy!

Sorry to disappoint you but you dont cross my mind til you’re mentioned or show yourself . As in the conversation with nevile. And asking a female that question is pretty inappropriate and, untznius .