A Study in Trolls: Updated

“please find out from him, chapter and verse, the punishment for a non Jew being meanes a non Jewish woman, and the source for special treatment (ie extra severity ) of a molester.”

Of course! But first let’s think through this. (though I’m not sure why you keep switching to “punishment” I said that it was wrong)

Having gone to a mainstream yeshiva, you must have encountered the chazal that there are mitzvos known to man without the Torah. It’s a gemara, Rashi brings it in Chumash. Are you familiar with this? Do you need chapter and verse.?

Now while I assume you encountered said chazal. It seems that you haven’t thought much about it (no fault of yours. what kind of self respecting yeshiva guy sounds time on Chumash or agadata we read it say that’s nice and simple and move on).

But take a second and absorb the above. There are some acts so abhorent that even without the Torah telling us we would know it’s wrong. (some say this is how goyim are to know all of their mitzvos) Surely, you can grant that being meanes someone falls into that category.
If you can’t grant that. then well, whether you give it weight or not, “that’s perverse thought ” and sadly I’m not sure we can continue since we must be speaking different languages

Thus it is wrong for a goy to be meanes someone (you seem to indicate that you weren’t sure about this, and you switch my question to punishment let’s stick to the above for a moment)

Again, although it doesn’t technically violate any of the sheva mitzvos it is wrong/bad/wicked/sinfull for a guy to do that.

With me so far?

In the case of a non Jew that was meanes a non Jewish woman,
One can punish him for stealing.
But again that’s not any different than punishing him for taking her pen.
And it’s possibly only if she “was never married ”
But my point is that the western horror attached to “meanes ” seems to be completely missing from the Torah View.
Something which I have found makes most people very edgy when confronted with.
And that is my main point. Most people I know (myself included) are very much impacted by western ideals, to the extent that when confronted with straight Torah ideals our instinctive reaction is often, that nuts, that can’t be… That’s just Josef trolling. When often it’s actually truth

To up the squeamish factor
What is the punishment for being meanes a meter married Jewish girl?
Money, and he must marry her!!!
Now granted she can say no way, but think about that, the Torah is saying that the meanes should marry his victim!!!!
Isn’t that a horrible thing?? We should throw him in jail and lose the key? No??
She should look at the guy every morning when she wakes up?
How can that be?
Obviously the Torah does not view the act with the horror western “civilization ” does.
Again I’m just reading the Torah.
If it was as horrible as western thought holds, why would the Torah even allow him to marry her.
Much less require her to refuse in the instance that she doesn’t want to

Klugeryid you have the dubious honor of posting one of the silliest things I have seen on this site: Are you saying that that the girls tremendous shame isn’t so bad: That it doesn’t matter that he marriage prospects are ruined. That it’s ok that she was selfishly violated. And your saying all this becomes of your baseless evaluation of the Torah punishment. Wich btw the chinuch explains that that consequence will serve As a deterrent. Jail doesn’t seem to be tremendously effective.

Ubiq
I keep going back to punishment because that was my original question.
I never claimed these are “good ” activities.
I am saying that one can see how the Torah views the severity of the bad deed from the proscribed punishment. (usually).

Next
“Having gone to a mainstream yeshiva, you must have encountered the chazal that there are mitzvos known to man without the Torah. It’s a gemara, Rashi brings it in Chumash. Are you familiar with this? Do you need chapter and verse.?”
Mitzvos ? No I’m not familiar with it. Help me out.
Middos yes.
So is it wrong for a non Jew to do such a thing? Of course. Just like its wrong for him to spit in someone’s face.
That’s why I keep going back to the question of punishment, and perhaps why you keep jumping back to “is it wrong ” cause that’s an easy answer. But I never asked that. I’m not discussing that cause I agree.

Phil, yes I know. You’ll notice though that you are only able to bring from the last generation or so. Do you really believe that In the history of our nation there were no molesters until 1945?
So where is all the responsa about it?
The answer is, that even they are not making a new classification called molesters. They are stating the current fact. In today’s World a molested child has a high rate of suicide….. Therefore a molester is a rodef. Were it to be true that a victim of a home invasion were to have the same reactions, then they would also be a rodef (besides “ba bamachteres where applicable) it’s not special to a molester.

Rockstar, I don’t believe you can punish a one time molester based On the fact that he will probably become a repeat offender. I think unfortunately one would need to wait before acting against him as a repeat offender. (that’s just my opinion nothing to back it up)
As far as a king, absolutely but remember for most of our history we haven’t had a king and it is actually looked down upon us when we asked for one. So that can’t really be the utopian ideal of taking care of issues.

Phil no I’d imagine a person in that situation would be aghast. That doesn’t mean I could kill the guy. Much as I’d imagine anyone in such a position would want to.

Grey matter, I never said any such thing. The Gemmara specifically discusses all those things why would I be so stupid as to say otherwise. I spoke about the punishment.
But the Torah would not allow it.
(don’t get into punishment as a deterrent, half the posters opposing me here vehemently disagree with such corrupt thought. I happen to agree)

Ubiq your second post was posted before I had a chance to respond but I think I responded to it

btw phil
please explain to me the idea of having him marry his victim?
how is that fair to her ever?
leave off my entire discussion
just answer this as a stand alone question

ubiq
the brisker rav says
on the statement “if we would not have the torah we would learn … from the …
“but now that we do have the torah we do not do things because of our understanding
we only do what the torah says we dont learn it on our own”
same with that rashi.which btw does not say what you claim at all
it says were they not commanded they are worthy that they should be commanded
in other words as opposed to chukim which are not understandable, these are.
nowhere indicating that we would be chayav without the torah commanding us.
thats why i like chapter and verse so i can look it up!

ubiq
quote
“KY
“I keep going back to punishment because that was my original question.”

But you only asked that after my question.”
end quote

really?????

here is my original comment from the question on this thread
quote
As a test, I’ll repeat a question I asked a while ago on a different thread, which got no answer there.
What should be the punishment for someone who is מאנס a woman who was previously married and is now divorced

now with a break put in cause you obviously missed it

As a test, I’ll repeat a question I asked a while ago on a different thread, which got no answer there.
What should be the*************** punishment **************for someone who is מאנס a woman who was previously married and is now divorced

not sure what is unclear about that
thats why i like chapter and verse

im still waiting for the gemorah you quoted which im not familiar with
and mareh mekomos from your rav

Are you not aware that “som tasim aleicha melech” is a mitzvah? I don’t understand why you dismiss this so quickly
because of the passuk before it
אשימה עלי מלך**** ככל הגויים ****אשר סביבותי
and look at the haftarah of korach we just lained where shemuel tells the yiddin how bad it is that they asked for a king
(yes the ramban says its a mitzvah to ask ****just like maakeh)

phil you just went nasty for no reason
but ill answer you anyway
the torah enjoyns us not to act out upon our emotions
we are not forbidden from having them
additionally look at the story of dina
the emotion is correct in its anger in certain cases
i am discussing punishment
see above

It’s simple. You break it, you buy it. (T)

KY
“the brisker rav says…”

chapter and verse please.

how does that fit wit hthe Rambam in shmoneh perakim perke vav “הענינים המפורסמים אצל כל בני האדם שהם “רעות”: כשפיכות דמים, וגנבה, וגזלה, ואונאה, ולהזיק למי שלא הרע לו, ולגמול רע למיטיב לו, ולבזות אב ואם וכיוצא באלו. והן המצוות שאמרו עליהן החכמים, ז”ל: ‘שאילו לא נכתבו ראויות הן לכתב”

He gfoes on to say not to say “לא יאמר אדם אי אפשי (. . אלא אפשי ומה אעשה אבי שבשמים גזר עלי” doesnt apply to things we know would be wrong.

At any rate though your narrow reading of Rashi, (Gemara yoma really) side steps my point.

HOW would we know such a thing is wrong? (you say “nowhere indicating that we would be chayav” again, patientce we will get to punishment. first we need to settle whether it is wrong. I am not discussing punishment yet.
I assume we agree stealing less than shava peruta is wrong, things can be wrong without punishment. (bidei adam)

“same with that rashi.which btw does not say what you claim at all”

I quoted it verbatim, in its original

“But you only asked that after my question.”
end quote
… really?????”
Yes really. It is a follow up from a previous thread wher I asked my question

unlike you I will actually cite chapter and verse :
It was the thread titled “Waiter’s finger was in my my soup!” page 2 reply number 1718823
you addressed the question to me.
now if you look before that in my replies 1717271, 1716745 and 1716458 (all before yours) I asked my original question that I still havent gotten a striaght answer from you.

Is it wrong for a Goy to be meanes an unmarried woman.

In case you did answer and I missed it do you mind obliging and giving a simple yer or no.
I’m not asking if he is chayiv anything I’m not asking if he gets punished. Just did he do a bad thing ?

“im still waiting for the gemorah you quoted which im not familiar with
and mareh mekomos from your rav”

I never said my Rav had mareh mekomos.
Though relax we have plenty. Torah is perfect dont chas vesholom be worried that somehting is lacking. You are lacking a bit which is why you seem to be so afraid to answer straight forward questions. but together we will get the emes.
but one step at a time.

Again lets settle this simple point. Is it wrong for a goy to be meanes a woman, yes or no.

(forgive me for not replying regarding the king part we will get there but you get lost covering lots of points at once, or maybe its me but I have been asking thsi question several times now and I’m still not sure as to your view or a person being meanes, youve compared it to spitting, said ” the Torah does not view the act with the horror western “civilization ” does.” “OK is a vague word. I’m not sure what the issur would be though”, ” Same as stealing a penny”.)

NC

“Saying the Torah doesn’t prescribe a punishment for something is not the same thing as saying it’s OK”
agreed

“. He clearly isn’t saying it’s OK.”

Its not so clear, he seems to be equivocating in a few posts. and when I ask him outright I havent gotten straight answers . but I will keep trying he came close “Of course. Just like its wrong for him to spit in someone’s face.” Though I’m curious if he actually means that

ubiq
Is it wrong for a goy to be meanes a woman, yes or no.

yes its definately wrong

i never went back to that thread so i didnt realize what you were driving at
in that thread the question was not addressed to me
sorry for the confusion

“perhaps among the worst things a human can do to another ?”

If that had been true, the halachic punishment would have been far more severe.

“If that had been true, the halachic punishment would have been far more severe.”
Thats purely assumption. Molesting is something rarely done before witnesses other than the child. A better, more educated assumption would be that Hashem, unlike man, isnt interested in destroying the child a second time or making him testify (is he even a kosher witness) so instead he leaves a special place in hell reserved for these animals and reserves their complete punishment for the world to come.
As long as youre making things up, at least be realistic.

No I categorically do not agree it is among the worst things a human can do to another. As evidenced by the lack of severe punishment, and the requirement to marry the victim.

I happen not to understand it. But I think that that is my short coming
I think it’s pretty clear from the dinim how Hashem views it.
I don’t have to like it nor understand it, OK maybe I should try to understand it because it’s Part of Torah but my lack of understanding doesn’t change the truth. It just makes me also impacted by western ideology

Syag
You went off topic there
We are discussing rape
The Gemmara discusses it being done in the presence of witnesses who warn him
Yes there are dinim for it being done with witnesses

It’s not assumption. The Gemmara in many places in סנהדרין when discussing the different עונשים for various crimes, clearly states that the more severe crime carries the more severe punishment.

Ubiq as I just wrote, it’s not an assumption.
Answer to #2 making him into a Zionist is worse (I don’t know if today’s “Zionists ” count) as חזל clearly state גדול המחטיאו יותר מן ההרגו
So why is there no punishment you will ask?
Great question.
I will offer a few possible answers.
1) the שו”ע says you can’t be מחלל שבת to save someone from שמד there is a huge סוגיא there discussing this very question. Look there. It’s probably the same (if I remember correctly one way out was that a person can always do תשובה so מחטיאו is not final whereas if you kill him it’s over)
2) you can’t give התראה as there is no actual time of “making him a Zionist ” as opposed to the moment he pulls the trigger.
3) who says there is no punishment ?? Much as we saw before, a list of גדולי פוסקי זמננו who say a molester is a רודף due to the ultimate outcome, who says we would not give סקילה to the Zionist maker based on מסית ומדיח ?? In which case he is getting a worse punishment as killing gets הרג which is less severe than סקילה

KlugerYid is correct.

Ubiq, KY adequately answered the questions you posed. His point remains and is a strong argument that hasn’t (and can’t) be refuted.

Syag, lack of witnesses is a separate issue that doesn’t impact this point or discussion. We’re discussing the underlying punishment assuming the criteria for warning and witnesses has been met. That is a sufficient way in determining the severity of the crime. (If there are no witnesses to a murder, the murderer still committed one of the most severe crimes even though he might get away scot-free with murder. The underlying punishment for murder is the death penalty even if the murderer avoided it due to no witnesses.) In your example, had the victim been male it would be a capital offense, the most severe of all crimes.

Ubiq
What your missing is clarity and definition to the word “bad ”
It’s an ambiguous word
I am using it in a clinical legal way.
You seemingly are using it in an emotional context.
A court does not belong meting out punishment based on their feelings.
That’s what we know of as אין עונשין אלא אם כן מזהירים or in sports lingo, you can’t change the rules mid game.
The idea of התראה is that a person can only get punished, when they undertook to do the crime knowing they will get the specific punishment. That’s why if you warn them they will get a light punishment and it is an error, you cannot give the correct severe one. Therefore the Torah lays out specific guidelines as to what punishment each crime gets. Rape of a single girl gets שקל 50 and married to her for life.
Consensual with a married lady gets death.
Which would you say is “badder “?
Of a divorced girl there is no clearly spoken punishment .
Should we say that’s because it’s worse than the other two so it’s so bad there is no earthly punishment?
I can’t figure out that logic.
That’s why I chose to say, if an unmarried girl carries a clearly defined punishment, and a married woman is clearly a worse punishment, and a single divorced girl has nothing written, it’s probably because it’s not as bad.
Just logic
You want a source for the judging of the severity of a crime by the punishment?
Start with the Gemmara that asks which is worse, ע”ז ג”ע ושפיחת דמים or שנאת חינם ?
To which the Gemmara responds
בירה תוכיח שחזר לראשונים ולא חזר לאחרונים

There are plenty of other Gemmaras, as I said all over סנהדרין .

See? Critical thinking, at first you didn’t seem to acknowledge this.
Are you so sure rape isn’t similar?

No. Actually I acknowledged it right away and I responded to it.
It would be difficult to put rape there as the Torah bleary discusses it and does not say you kill someone for it. But if the results matched up with molestation, then your correct I can’t say we wouldn’t kill. But as I said before. The same would go for purse snatching.
If every victim or many even, committed suicide, it would probably also become a capital offense.
It’s not specific to rape.

חילול שבת is worse than murder.
The Gemmara says it goes by the type of death penalty.
It’s splits different kind of עריות as well.
It’s clearly basing how big a rasha he is, by viewing his punishment.

Ubiq
יומא פג א
מאכילים אותו הקל הקל
טבל ושביעית מאכילים אותו שביעית
רש”י – אם אין לנו דברים מותרים כדי צרכו ויש לפנינו מיני איסורים מאכילים אותו הקל הקל שבהם
טבל ושביעית מאכילים אותו שביעית – לאחר זמן הביעור שהטבל במיתה בידי שמים ושביעית בעשה
You feed him the smaller issur
How do you know which is smaller?
You look at the punishmen

Kluger and Jospeh: You cannot learn the severity of an aveirah from the punishment. This is clear from multiple places in the Torah – I’ll suffice with two examples here:
One: One who gives all his kids to Molech evades punishment, while one who gave only part gets killed, even though clearly one who gave all is worse.
Two: Being bo’el a goy is seemingly ad’rabbanan (at least based on the punishment), but its considered worse than being bo’el a niddah.
Thus, in Torah thought, the punishment shows no outlook on the severity of the crime.
Furthermore, the Rambam writes that one who is going to be me’aness a woman (or anyone, really) against her will is a rodef and anyone can kill her, which makes the prohibition among the most severe in the Torah. One going to steal or be mazik is not a rodef, but one going to molest is. Obviously, a molester is on par with a murderer.

KY

“A court does not belong meting out punishment based on their feelings.”
Again I’m not up to punishment yet.
I am trying to understand your view. (ie that we strictly judge how bad an act is based on punishment)

I’m trying to understand your view that severity of an act is absolutly determined by severity of punishment.

1) “How do you know which is smaller?
You look at the punishment”

Yes klapi shemaya. How do we know whats worse donkey or cheilev. both don’t seem particulary bad to me? We look at the punishment.
If I were to ask you whats worse being embarrased in public or having you r sheep stolen.

would you say “well if you steal my sheep you have to pay me 5 times its worth, if you embarras me you get no punishment (from beis din (leave out daas yachid that arent lehalacha) So I’d rather get embarrassed”
does that make sense to you?

what;s worse chopping of a leg or stealing a cow.
Ok let me do the math … a cow cost 100,000 dollars so your knas is 400,000, a leg costs well my value goes down, plus bed rest and doctor bill.. add it all up and ok I guess leg is worse

Is that really how you view the severity of an act?

2) You acknowledge rape is bad, if there is no onesh how do you know? Is it worse than stealing? If a single girl would r”l say “please don’t d othat take my money” is she being mesayeah ovdei aveira by encouraging him to do a worse aveira?

3) After how many exceptions, does your absolute rule of greater punishment = worse act fall apart.
So far you have “However that is only על פי סוד.,” “it’s simply because of it being אבוזריהו דגילוי עריות ” “a person can always do תשובה so מחטיאו is not final whereas if you kill him it’s over” expanding the rules of meisis to include zionism. I’m not disputing these specific points.

I’m, just saying that clearly the rule greater punishment = worse act isn’t absolute. As you ackowledge based on the multiple exceptions

4) Nassan tells Dovid of the rich man who stole poor man’s beloved sheep (Shmuel 2 12) Do you think it is no different than a poor man’s stealing a rich man’s sheep? (Yes David was allowed to punish becasue of din melech, my question is WHY did he punish what in your view (if I understand correctly) is an ordinary act of stealing.
Is that in fact your view that stealing a poor man’s only sheep is not “badder” than stealing a rich man’s?

5) “חילול שבת is worse than murder.”

And yet only one of those is one required to give up one’s life for.
And here is the real kicker: how do we know, one is required to give up his life rather than kill?
Is it a passuk or limud of some sort?

1)

Yeshivishrockstar: What’s your source that being bo’el a goy is considered worse than being bo’el a niddah? I dispute that. I think that’s another example of putting personal feelings over Torah thought.

“Should we say that’s because it’s worse than the other two so it’s so bad there is no earthly punishment?
I can’t figure out that logic.”

a. Why don’t we say onshin min hadin?
If a the severity of an act is always graded based on punishment then use a simple kal vachomer, then a more severe act should carry (at least) the same punishment?

b. Its ok not to be able to “figure out that logic” you acknowledge regarding your view of rape as not being so severe “I happen not to understand it”
so either way you agree that it escapes your full understanding (not that I understand why it doesnt have a more severe punishment)

I guess what I’m puzzling over is in spite of you conceding this “lack of understating”, what drives you to stick by your assertion that rape is not among the most abhorent acts, and to have to come up with all sorts of exceptions in order to allow the rule that “greater punishment = worse act” to exist. At the very least, why can’t this be yet another exception (for whatever reason)?

Ubiq I made a huge post last night which I guess was to hot for the mods to let through
Part of it referenced
יומא פג-א
מאכילים אותו הקל הקל
Look in rashi there
It’s clear you judge severity based on punishment
He says it straight out
I keep sticking to it because it’s true

KY
“Look in rashi there”

Im not sure which Rashi you are reffering to.
I responded t o this. Whats worse tevel or neveila?

Neither of whcih seem assur on their own, we only know they are assur becasue the Borei Olam told us. SO we dont know what He considers worse, wo we look at punishment.

Rape vs theft. which is worse. We don’t need to look at the onesh to determine that. that is something we all know. (much like you grant you know rape is assur even though their is no explicit passuk telling you)

“I keep sticking to it because it’s true”
Its not, the list of exceptions keeps getting longer