A Random Shaale Halocho Lemaaseh

Home Forums Bais Medrash A Random Shaale Halocho Lemaaseh

Viewing 32 posts - 1 through 32 (of 32 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #593720
    blueprints
    Participant

    Is one allowed to say targum before chumash-rashi (lechatchila)?

    #728956
    TzefatView
    Member

    Interesting question. i will be by Rav Nissim Karelitz on sunday, and i will ask him if their is a specific order that it should be said in.

    #728957
    mdd
    Member

    I was told — no.

    #728958

    Really ??? Your Rav knows all this ?

    ?? ????? ????? ?? ???? ??? ?????, ???? ?? ?????? ,

    ??? ?????? ?? ?????, ???? ?? ??? ???, ???? ?? ?????? ,

    ???? ????? ??”?

    ???? ??”? ??”? ?”? ?

    ??? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ?? ????? ??? ?????, ??? ?? ?????? ????

    ??”? ??/??

    ?? ???????? ????? ?? ???? ??? ????? ??? ????? ?’ ????? ???? ?? ?????? , ???? ??? ???? ????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ????? ?? ???? ?’ ????? ??????? ???? ???

    ?”? ??? ??”? ?

    You should have looked it up yourself.

    Tzefatview I sure hope you see this before you see Rav Nissim K.

    & wont advertise your ?? ??????

    #728960
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Can someone please elaborate for me why it’s assur to recite the Targum Onkelos before learning the Chumash and Rashi?

    I ask because I very often look at Onkelos while learning Chumash without necessarily looking at Rashi first. Am I transgressing some commandment that I am not aware of? Have I damned myself to an even lower circle of hell in the afterlife?

    Seriously… I can’t fathom why this should be assur. I’m completely baffled.

    The Wolf

    #728961

    Can someone please elaborate for me why it’s assur to recite the Targum Onkelos before learning the Chumash and Rashi? Who said that ??

    Learnig ??”? & ???”? ARE 2 ????? . True ther is discussion in the Poskim whether one is Yotzeh Tragum with Rashi, There is even dicussion whether Melamdim who teach Chumash are yotzeh???”? .

    #728962
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Ah, okay. No one told me this was in the context of Shnayim Mikra… I thought he was talking about learning in general.

    Makes more sense now. At least that’s one less reason why I’m going to hell.

    The Wolf

    #728964
    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    Why not? Especially since shnayim mikra was done chhumash-targum for centuries before Rashi was born. I think the you’re asking if it’s lechatchila to say the targum before the shnayim mikra.

    #728965
    Gabboim
    Member

    Isn’t shnayim mikra mean the pasuk twice and tagume once (pasuk by pasuk)?

    #728967
    NAG member
    Member

    Don’t you have something better to do?

    #728968

    Gabboim- There are different ways brought down to do it.

    wants to be WIY brought them down above.

    #728969
    blueprints
    Participant

    Yes, exactly itche-srulik. Now what’s the answer?

    Gabboim: that may be the order you do it but I would like to do targum, mikra, rashi, mikra, if that’s mutar lechatchila or not

    NAG member: SORRY! what does that mean? We’re talking shnayim mikra here, a chiyuv mefurash in shulchan oruch!!!

    Care to explain yourself?

    #728970
    Pashuteh Yid
    Member

    What kind of a way is that to address somebody by saying his question is Am Haaratzut? There is a famous story about a gadol who was asked a simple question by a woman about tarfus. He examined the chicken and then went to learn for a half an hour so she would think it was an involved question and then answered. He did not want to insult her, or to discourage her from asking again.

    #728971
    Pashuteh Yid
    Member

    I personally think G-d will not be too angry if somebody does the order in the way it helps him learn the best.

    #728972
    mw13
    Participant

    For the umpteenth time, all halacha li’maseh shailos should be asked to qualified Rov, not put to a vote by a board of anonymous bloggers who may or may not have any idea what they’re talking about.

    #728973
    blueprints
    Participant

    yeah but if they bring impressive replies

    e.g. Interesting question. i will be by Rav Nissim Karelitz on sunday, and i will ask him if their is a specific order that it should be said in.

    then i’m inclined to listen

    #728974
    shlomozalman
    Member

    Even today, the Teimanim read the Torah by reading a pasuk and pausing for the reading of the targum.

    Since once upon a time the targum was an understandable translation of the mikra, it is only logical that the original text come before the translation.

    #728975
    blueprints
    Participant

    but must it?

    #728976
    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    I once heard a very interesting shiur on the topic that explained the din of maavir sedrah from two perspectives; understanding the text, and (slightly al pi sod) reenacting har sinai. According to the first pshat, anything goes which is why you are yotze with Rashi. According to the second pshat, the Targum Onkelos represents the process of Moshe teaching it to the people. Incidentally, that’s why the Shulchan Aruch says a God fearing person will do both; because he’s fulfilling two opinions by doing the extra targum. Don’t take a psak from this summary but its conclusion is fairly obvious.

    #728977
    blueprints
    Participant

    not very obvious both tzdodim seem to say mutar?

    #728978
    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    The second tzad implies that the order is me’akev.

    #728979
    blueprints
    Participant

    nuuuu!!

    tzefatview I eagerly await the reply

    #728980
    klach
    Member

    HaRav Elyashiv was asked by someone who was extremely tarud with very important matters in running a yeshiva if he could not do hnayim mikra due to lack of time, and answered absolutely not, but you can be yotzei one time mikra reading along with the baal korei on shabbos.

    #728981
    blueprints
    Participant

    why is this shayach

    #728982
    klach
    Member

    because obvoiously this person did not do it in the lechatchila order.

    #728983
    blueprints
    Participant

    Shdusim!!!

    It’s because lechatchila you should finish your shmayim mikra on friday night

    Or cause there’s a machlokes podium wether your allowed to do shmayim mikra during krias hatorah (cos some say you can’t hear the kriah if your talking)

    #728984
    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    Since when do podiums argue? I thought the people *at* the podiums argued. 😉

    #728985
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    For the record, I don’t believe that this question was truly randomly chosen (as per the title) out of all the possible sha’alos that could have been asked. 🙂

    The Wolf

    #728986
    klach
    Member

    sometimes it sounds like the podiums are arguing. . .

    #728987
    blueprints
    Participant

    Sorry poskim

    I was typing on my fathers iPhone and it doesn’t do the Jewish language well

    #728988
    blueprints
    Participant

    Random with respect to other threads not the shaale itself

    #728989
    Sam2
    Participant

    There is a long discussion between Rav Mordechai Elyahu and Rav Eliezer Waldenberg brought down in the Tzitz Eliezer whether you can be Yotzei with the Ba’al Korei/ if you can read it once, do Targum once, and then be Yotzei Shomeah Keone with the Ba’al Korei. There are definitely Shittos that hold that the order is not Me’akeiv while most seem to hold that it is.

    As an aside, the Shittah of the Ra’avan is brought down by several modern Poskim that Shnayim Mikra is just an Eitzah Tovah. Many B’nei Yeshivah who spend all of their time learning Gemara rely on this to learn Gemara instead of Chumash.

Viewing 32 posts - 1 through 32 (of 32 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.