A Chasidus without a present Rebbe

To yb

There’s no point trying to get through to Lubavichers. While I for one will acknowledge the Rebbe’s genius etc no Lubavicher will ever admit that any point we make has validity.

To DaMoshe

Just a desperate ploy by CS who senses that her cause is lost. We recognize Reb Chaim’s greatness in Torah but no one suggests he’s Moshiach and certaimly not god.

To CT

Your silence is deafening.

To the group

This thread should be renamed, “As CS changes the subject”
As I told Menachem Shmei on numerous occasions,”If you can’t or won’t answer a question it’s checkmate.”

DaMoshe: “Arso, about the Gulf War, you made a mistake. R’ Chaim didn’t say nothing would happen in Israel. He said it specifically about Bnei Brak, not the entire Israel.”

If so, I stand corrected on that. Thanks.

CS: “Secondly, you have homework now: (I’ve saved mine from the other day): 1. Proof that The Rebbe said not one Jew will die”

Being a little older than you, I remember it! I don’t know whether I can find a proof, as it’s likely that if it ever was online it has since been deleted, but I hope to search for it. Nonetheless, as I wrote, I remember it clearly.

“2. Proof for your claim that indeed two Jews died directly from the rockets”

Google “how many people died in Israel during the 1991 gulf war” and look through the numerous sites, including at least one official Israeli site.
And if you expect me to prove those sites as correct and truthful, I can’t because I didn’t work in the chevra kadisha.

I just did a search for your no. 1. and what I did find is that the Lubavicher rebbe said before the Gulf War that Israel is the safest place in the world. I don’t think it was for all those people who died due to war-related incidents. Do you?

To CS

You imputed that I’m not familiar with the concept of a Sichah and that’s why I reject it. Since I’ve been davening in a Chabad shul for years I’d have to be retarded not to be aware of the Rebbe’s sichos. IMHO a sichah is the Rebbe making something up which is at odds with our accepted trsditions and then using his encyclopedic knowledge to produce supporting evidence(of course I don’t mean that everything he said was a lie just as I accept most but not all of Rabbi Miller’s Torah).The problem is that you take this one step further and invent “the three stage process” and then convince yourself that it’s true. Where are your sources?

To yb

I don’t think Coffee waa making light of the Chabad belief in a aecond coming rather he was pointing out how odious is such a suvgestion. More than a decade ago Shmuely Boteach was on Zev Brenner’s program and Zev asked him if he thought the Rebbe was Moshiach. Boteach answered, “The Rebbe is the greatest influence in my life, but he can’t be Moshiach because Judaism flatly rejects any suggestion of a second coming.”

To CS

Still waiting for your proof(s) that I’ve used Koshon Hora.

Edited

@CS
I am old enough to remember this myself .
Lo teheh Shmi’a gdolah MeRe’iya.
The Rebbe of habad came out unequivocally and 1] promised that no one will be hurt in EY during the First Gulf War .
This was distributed by the hasidim in the name of their rebbe with a “Shturem” .
Then 2] this was used to establish the navi [emet – sheker?] credentials .
he promised in advance and in fact really nothing happened ,no one died , no one was injured , thus he was crowned as navi .
So we BH have – Hagai zharya malahi and RMMS.
Both [the promise plus the navi credentials] were made by OFFICIAL habad publications .
The kfar habad weekly magazine , dvar malhut .
I remember those heady days . Nearly every week there was more news. The Rebbe of the habad hasiddim got them into a real frenzy with new utterances all the time about the geoula [ not the impending one – rather the one they were supposed to open their eyes to] which was already happening right under their noses.
This was not the last generation of the galut . This was [supposedly] the first generation of the geoula !
[some thirty odd years ago …]
Suppose we can look it all up in the archives of kfar habad magazine of 1990 – 1992 in the period leading up to the stroke in ’92.

@Arso
Re the 2 colossal u turns – they are another topic which deserves mention in their own right
Od hazon Lamo’ed bln

.

“ Apples and oranges ”

Mr mod, while I admire your admirable approving/ editing, I disagree with you here. It’s not just about the Rebbe being Moshiach (and he claimed his father in law as such…) it’s also about Nevuah (he showed how nevuah was present by all Rebbeim.) in other words, anything atypical. I should add the reverence the Chassidim have naturally, seeing who the Rebbe was and is, is called avoda zara even though all the original sources on the topic describe the way one should view his Rebbe exactly as we do. (Think Rambam, Pirkei Avos etc)

Hence the natural conclusion is that this particular crowd of Jews is not used to being exposed to things beyond the realm of nature (whereas that was the expected with the Rebbe.) Which leads to the attitude in this demographic of, if it’s not what I’m used to/ what’s typical, it must be wrong/ person must be arrogant / misleading etc etc etc

You a sorely misunderstanding the conversation 

Qwerty
“ You accused me of writing Loshon hora. Please present tangible example(s) of Halachic Loshon hora that I wrote.”

Actually I said you accepted lashon hara, but you repeated it too so I guess that qualifies 😀.

How about saying that The Rebbe said he’s god? Although the words may seem similar they are poolat and extreme opposites. If you don’t take the time to understand something serious properly, and then you parrot it, it’s actually not lashon hara, it’s motzei shem ra.

Now you don’t understand it- that’s ok. I tried to put it very simply (did you see that post)? And it’s always best for complex matters to discuss it properly. You can call Rabbi Zajac for example.

Arso,

I don’t know you personally, what I do know is that you have a bitter bias against Chabad, so unfortunately I cannot take your word that you heard (and you’ve never said you were in 770, somehow I don’t picture you at a farbrengen). I hope you understand

About your second point about Eretz Yisrael being the safest place, the way I appreciate it is that because there is no sar appointed to Eretz Yisrael, everything there is not just hashgocha protis, but very very pinpointed. Like on simchas Torah, got many stories were there of people who davened or took on one Mitzvah, and were inexplicably saved? When I was there, I felt it. I hadn’t experienced an atmosphere of a place beforehand, but I felt it there.

And yes, there may have been an extremely limited number of people who died from side effects, but the natural death occurrences elsewhere (traffic accidents) were probably higher than the supernaturally minuscule number of tragedies.

DaMoshe

“ CS, again, as I said earlier, it’s not “well known” that R’ Chaim met Mashiach. It’s one person who claimed R’ Chaim said it to him.”

Interesting. So the response of the Litvishe world to what I thought was well known is to doubt it? Was the person who said it reputable?

CS, it was reported by a Yaakov Zisholtz. I have no idea who he is. If I Google him, I don’t find much. So no, I wouldn’t trust it.
If you take one prediction the Rebbe made that came true, and use that as a sign that he was a Navi… there are plenty of people who made predictions that came true, including Shabsai Tzvi.
When my wife and I were going through fertility treatments, we were having a lot of difficulty, and our doctor told us to give up. We got a bracha from a Rav that our next IVF should work, and B”H it did. Does that mean he was a Navi?
There were sports players who predicted that they’d win a game, and they did. Maybe they’re nevi’im too?

To DaMoshe

You were Michavin to what I was thinking. Yes Joe Namath is Moshiach. He predicted the Jets would win the Super Bowl in 1969. Now we have to trace his lineage to Dovid Hamelech. Hey you never know

Edited

@CS
What the notzrim believe or not doesn’t make something treif. It’s whether it’s Torah or not. The notzrim are wrong first and foremost because yoshke was a rasha and was never fit to be Moshiach to begin with.

Now I don’t think there’s any Torah sources for someone who started the job, and didn’t finish/ was killed or otherwise thwarted, to continue to consider them Moshiach.
The debate is if someone started and, at least to our eyes, passed away, but their work and personal influence continue, what then? There’s room to say …. that he could then have techias hameisim with the first round of Tzaddikim (40 years earlier than
the rest) and finish the job.

[Previous post by CS]
————————————————————-
RAMBAN clearly states that the Notsrims Mashiach can’t be mashiach.
And he also states the reason .
NOT because he was a rasha.
But because he started and [ to our eyes] passed away . EVEN IF HIS WORK AND INFLUENCE CONTINUED …..
That was according to RAMBAN sufficient reason to say –
HE CANNOT BE MASHIACH
.
This Ramban was not a chidush .
It was pashut.
Not challenged by anyone.
Not in his days .
Not in any of the multiple subsequent generations .
Not even in 1992 and 1993

ONLY from a very specific date in 1994 and onwards, was it discarded by some Jews [for some secret specific tsorech , I am not telling you what ,but you are allowed to guess it yourself]
.
Something against RAMBAN is treif .

Yes ,treif .

CS: “It’s not just about the Rebbe being Moshiach (and he claimed his father in law as such…)”

Hold on a second. The Lubavicher rebbe claiimed his father-in-law was Mashiach? So was he wrong or right? If he was wrong, then you admit that he could be wrong, and thus possibly wrong in other statements. If he was right, then his father-in-law was Mashiach – and btw he hasn’t been alive for over 70 years and has still not returned! – so your rebbe was not Mashiach.
Having had tons of experience with Lubavich obfuscating (another word which I never get to use, so please mods don’t delete that word!) I am guessing that you will answer something along the lines that they are really the same person and the neshama has moved from one to the other, being “nesi’im” of Chabad. So if that’s the case, simply appoint another live “nasi” and he wil be a live Mashiach, removing so many of the problems.
(For the record, the title “nasi” is a term which I have shown on other earlier threads that does not exist, and was made up by Lubavich to suit themselves. That is why I have put it in quotes. No reason at this point to reiterate what I have written elsewhere.)

“it’s also about Nevuah (he showed how nevuah was present by all Rebbeim.)”

Claiming is not showing.

“all the original sources on the topic describe the way one should view his Rebbe exactly as we do. (Think Rambam, Pirkei Avos etc)”

There is not even one source that says that someone who comes up with outlandish, weird and unacceptable statements, thereby leading a large group of Yidden to believe in a second coming et al, should be viewed the way you view the LR. There are other reasons to make that claim, but אין כאן המקום להאריך.

“Hence the natural conclusion is that this particular crowd of Jews is not used to being exposed to things beyond the realm of nature (whereas that was the expected with the Rebbe.)”

I, who have been exposed for decades to many things beyond the realm of nature brought about by brochos of tzaddikim, should take offence at what you say. But I don’t because I know that despite you wanting very much to see the truth, you are facing away from it, and you therefore consider everybody else bent, and only Lubavich upright. Brainwashing in Lubavich has been going on for so long that they have it R”L down to a fine art.

From the mods: “You are [corrected] sorely misunderstanding the conversation”

Once again, the mods have hit the nail on the head.

CS: “I don’t know you personally, what I do know is that you have a bitter bias against Chabad, so unfortunately I cannot take your word that you heard (and you’ve never said you were in 770, somehow I don’t picture you at a farbrengen). I hope you understand”

True I have an extremely strong bias against Lubavich, but I wouldn’t call it bitter. It just upsets me greatly the way Lubavich has attempted to bring concepts into the Torah world that have clearly always been unacceptable, and are distorting Torah-true hashkafah. And by that I mean hashkafah that has always been accepted by ALL streams of chareidi Jewry, including chassidim, misnagdim, Ashkenazim and Sefardim.

Anyhow, as yankel berel wrote, he too remembers the prediction that no one will be killed in the Gulf War. So it’s just the two of us bitter people against the brainwashed multitude of Lubavicher, many of whom, I am sure also remember the prediction but won’t admit to it.

“About your second point about Eretz Yisrael being the safest place, the way I appreciate it is…”

Well said! The way YOU appreciate it, not the way it was understood literally by anyone who heard it at the time. Because the way it was understood then would have to lead you to conclude that the LR was wrong!

“And yes, there may have been an extremely limited number of people who died from side effects”

The two who were killed from missile strikes were killed by ‘side effects’?!

“but the natural death occurrences elsewhere (traffic accidents) were probably higher than the supernaturally minuscule number of tragedies.”

I’m not a mathematician, but I believe that ‘supernaturally minuscule number of tragedies’ is still more than the zero in the prediction… oops… sorry… nevuah.

To CS

You misunderstood what I meant about Rabbi Zajac. Qe don’t know each other. If I get stuck on a point in the Gemara I liaten to him online and he usually clarifies it for me. When it comes to Hashkafah and Halacha I have plenty of mainstream Rabbis to rely on

To the group

The moshol of Yaakov’s ladder is fundamental. Even though our Patriarch’s face is on the Kisei Hakovod the ladder was planted on the ground meaning he was grounded in normalcy. Rabbi Moshe Tendler spoke about his father in law and syressed how normal he was. Rabbi Butman, on jis radio program, regularly says that when Moshiach comes there won’t be any more Shnayim Ochzin Bitalis. Rather we’ll only have the Kabbalistic meaning of the Gemara. Thos attitude explains why Lubavichers don’t care what Rambam or the Gemara says. They think we’re in a new era where Kabbalah reigns.

To ARSo and Yankel Berel

You are both completely missing the boat by pointing out that rlthe Rebbe’s prediction(prophecy?) didn’t come true. The Rebbe’s credentials as a Novi allow him to retain that syatus even when he’s proven wrong. And there are many sources for this.

Wow alot here:

YB: Regarding the Ramban, I have heard that it’s won somewhere, (this is either a fact or not, I’ll look into if others don’t know) the mode of refutation in those says, when the whole thing was dangerous to begin with, was not done in a completely truthful way The way we see things, but on their terms. So even if it may say something different in Torah shebaal peh, they would still argue it because the notzrim only cared about Torah shebichsav.

Regarding the sources for the stages of revelation, concealment, final revelation, here you go (was on page 3):

משיח נגלה ונכסה וחוזר ונגלה
אשרי המחכה וגו’. ארבעים וחמש שנים נוספים על חשבון העליון שעתיד משיחנו להתכסות אחר שנגלה וישוב ויתגלה. וכן מצינו במדרש רות, וכן יסד רבי אליעזר הקליר )בסילוקיוצרפרשתהחדש(ויתכסהמהם ְשבּוִעיםששה.
(רש”י דניאל יב, יב)

משיח יתכסה כגואל הראשון
ויהיה הגואל נגלה וחוזר ונכסה כדי להתעות את העכו”ם ולהקשות את לבם, שכן מצינו בגאולת מצרים שנגלה להם משה וחזר ונכסה מהם, וזהו שדרשו רבותינו ז”ל: ויפגעו את משה ואת אהרן, אחר ששה חדשים נגלה הקב”ה במדין וא”ל: לך שוב מצרימה, בא משה ממדין ואהרן ממצרים ופגעו בהם שוטרי ישראל כשהם יוצאים מלפני פרעה. וכן דרשו במדרש חזית: דומה דודי לצבי, מה צבי זה הוא נראה ונכסה וחוזר ונראה, כן גואל הראשון נראה להם וחזר ונכסה מהם וחזר ונראה להם. וכמה נכסה מהם, רבי תנחומא אומר שלשה חדשים, הדא הוא דכתיב ויפגעו את משה ואת אהרן. רבי יהודה ב”ר אומר ללריסין, כלומר לשון פגיעה לפרקין היא. וכן הגואל העתיד יהיה נגלה וחוזר ונכסה, שהרי גאולה זו עתידה
(רבינו בחיי פר’ ויחי עמ’ מד)

להיות כדמיון גאולת מצרים בהרבה ענינים.
נסיון גדול
וזה נסיון גדול שנעלם הגואל ששה חדשים, וכן יהי’ בימי משיח צדקינו, יהי’ נעלם אחר התגלות כדאיתא במדרש וה’ יעמוד לימין הצדיקים בבי”א.
(תורת משה פר’ שמות)

Regarding the question about the gulf war from yb, that’s a legitimate question. I’ve asked about it, and here’s what the rabbis reply was:

Regarding the gulf war:
The Rebbe said that we will see miracles and that Yidden are safe in EY

Chassidim decided that it must mean that there will be no missiles etc. They publicised that and it caused a chillul (as it is not what he said)

https://www.chabad dot org/therebbe/article_cdo/aid/62184/jewish/1991-Missiles-Miracles.htm

https://derher dot org/wp-content/uploads/103-adar-5781-7.pdf

Ps. Arso I haven’t finished with the yichus piece- looking into it thoroughly.

DaMoshe,

“CS, it was reported by a Yaakov Zisholtz. I have no idea who he is. If I Google him, I don’t find much. So no, I wouldn’t trust it.”

Ok that’s fair

Qwerty,

“I asked CS to give an example of my having spread Loshon hora. She answered that I accepted the lie that the Rebbe is god. The problem is that the Lubavichers in a different thread said that the Rebbe announced in 1962 that he’s god clothed in human form. So I’ve spoken Lishon hora by repeating what the Rebbe said about himself.”

No, the way you presented it, due to your lack of understanding, indicated that The Rebbe is god Himself- like god who took his whole self and became a person. That’s NOT what The Rebbe said, whether the words sound similar or not, and anyone with a basic background of Chassidus would know.

The Rebbe meant the exact opposite, that the potential of every Jew, which the Rebbe is the head so able to actualize it, is to completely negate his sense of separate selfhood, and tap into his true identity of his Neshama which is one with Hashems Atzmus (not that he limits Hashem to being enclothed in one body cvs- rather- you look at him and see Atzmus- that he’sa G-dly person.)

Hope that clarifies.

Arso, I agree with you that the ultimate vision is not to take care of just not frum. The ideal vision that The Rebbe left us with is that every yid is a shliach. Whatever their talents are, whether in shlichus, teaching, business etc. they do that job with a sense of shlichus, always looking out to help other yidden come closer to Hashem, as well as themselves, and prepare the world for Moshiach.

Btw, to YB:

Knowing history, I’m not surprised The Rambams didn’t use the most obvious argument- that yoshke was never Moshiach material, (as Rabbi Immanuel Schochet A”H did in his debates), even though that should be fairly obvious to us all, I hope, because it probably would have cost him his head.