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Arso, Iโm glad that other groups are also aiming for the same levels. Beinoni is a description of a level and so is low level tzadik. No one in lubavitch aims to Crown themselves with these titles. Thatโs ridiculous- opposite of bitul etc.
I wish I could hear more of these aspirations in other groups. Personally I have met some really sincere ovdei Hashem in other groups. One I know of- but I canโt really read her so to speak. The other person I encountered seemed very ehrlich but I wouldnโt get into unnecessary discussion with the opposite gender in person.
I do think that there are sincere ovdim in every group, however I find Chassidus Chabad lifts someone to a different level, so their sincerity is likewise elevated to a level they may not have aimed for beforehand. Feel free to show me otherwise.
Arso, Iโve listed the Rebbes yichus up to the Maharal. Do you have a source you can list/ refer to on sefaria etc, that backs up what youโre saying about the Maharal?
I donโt have any knowledge other than the Maharal was miyuchas to Beis Dovid, feel free to provide.
Arso, I wrote in my post that every Jews identity is really one with atzmus (realizing this and internalizing this is different for different people.)
In perek 42 of Tanya the Alter Rebbe explains about every Jew containing a spark of Moshe. I believe weโve been through this. This doesnโt contradict- someone like a Rebbe- embodies Moshe more and regular people can t tap into it on their level. Same with Moshiach- thereโs the one big Moshiach, and the spark of Moshiach in every yid
Chabadshlucha,
I really appreciate your posts it shows how Lubavitch view themselves as โthe only wayโ and on the level of being a cult
edited
CS, if you do a search for the yichus of the Maharal you will find that there is a disagreement whether he was descended from David Hamelech. That surprised me a few days ago when I first saw it, but it’s there in black and white (pixels).
Secondly, if the Maharal is indeed a descendant of David Hamelech, it is through Rashi (who had no sons) and the nesi’im in EY who were descended through Shefatya, as per the gemoro in Kesubos 62b, not through Shlomo. All this can be seen from a search.
The search also showed me that it is not only in Peirush Hamishnayos that the Rambam says that Mashiach has to be descended from Shlomo Hamelech. He writes the same in Iggeres Teiman:
ืืืืจ ืื ืืืื ื ืืกื ืืืื ืืืกืืื ืืืื ืช ืืฉืจืื ืืืื ืฉืื ืืคืฉืจ ืฉืื ืืขืื ืืืจืข ืฉืืื ืืืฉ ืฉืืงืืฅ ื ืคืืฆืืชื ื ืืืืกืืฃ ืืจืคืชื ื ืืืืืชื ื ืืืืื ืืืช ืืืืชืืช ืืืฉืืื ืื ืื ืฉืืืจื ืืืจื ืืื ืฉืืืืืื ื ืืงืืืฉ ืืจืื ืืื ืืชืืจืชื
And wonder of wonders, I discovered that Rabbeinu Bachya – whom you have quoted regarding the disappearance, for want of a better word, of Mashiach – also writes the same on Devarim 30:15:
ืืืืช ืืืฉืื ืฉืืื ืืืจืข ืฉืืืThirdly, the Lubavicher rebbe’s yichus to the Baal Hatanya is via the Baal Hatanya’s daughter, so he is not ben achar ben that way even if what I wrote above about the Maharal is incorrect, and the Maharal is descended from David Hamelech ben achar ben.
Simply put, the Lubavicher rebbe is allegedly (I believe it to be true, but I only know it from Lubavich sources, and you may not be surprised to hear that I don’t find them always 100% reliable) ben achar ben from the Tzemach Tzedek whose patrilineal line is unknown.
One other interesting point that I realized today, Bar Kochba/Koziba’s name was Shimon, so clearly R Akiva did not think that Mashiach’s name has to be Menachem.
I have stayed out of this discussion until now.
Your comment that we all agree that Chabad if not Judaism troubles me.
I for one believe Chabad followers are Jewish, but some of the group have beliefs/customs that are not the same as many other Jews.
That said, how many of us rely on Chabad for a minyan or food when we travel?
How many of us eat food processed under the supervision of OK Labs?I come from Litvish/Yekkah forebears, but have a weekly Gemarah shiur with the local Chabad Rabbi. There may be Melech HaMoshiach posters on the rear wall of the shul, but never once in 30 years has this view been espoused to me.
When you live in small town America, Chabad is often the public face of observant Judaism.
I am not willing to agree that Chabad is not Judaism, but rather it is one variation of how Judaism is practiced.Shabsai Tzvi was also a huge talmud chacham, who was declared Mashiach by many leading Rabbonim. He also supposedly performed miracles, some of which are mentioned by big Rabbonim as well. R’ Bender mentions one in his sefer on the Parsha. Yet we all know that Shabsai Tzvi was a fraud.
The Rebbe was the mashiach sheker of our times. Just like with Tzvi, even after his passing, people are still hanging on, hoping that it’s true. But just like with Tzvi, it’s not true.
One of the reasons that the Gra was opposed to Chassidus was because he foresaw this happening. It just proves him right.
To CS
You are avoiding the question which stands at the heart of this discussion. Your entire religion is based on the belief that Hashem spoke to the Rebbe as he communicated with Moshe Rabbeinu. You like to cite esoteric Torah but I live in the realm of Gemara. There is a Chazakah established by the Gemara that Nevuah will not return until Moshiach’s arrival. Lubavichers want to posit that the Rebbe is an(the) exception. According to the principle of Hamotzi Meichaveiro you must prove tbat the Rebbe is was a Novi.
CS: “Same with Moshiach- thereโs the one big Moshiach, and the spark of Moshiach in every yid”
(Non-Lubavich) source please?
qwerty613, clearly you’re not singing the correct songs, since your questions are still here!
?
Had a minute- Arso:
In one of the prophecies of Bilaam it is written,6 ืืจื ืืืื ืืืขืงื โ โA star shall go forth from Jacob.โ In one of its tractates, the Talmud Yerushalmi7 explains that this phrase is an allusion to the King Mashiach. Elsewhere,8 the Talmud Yerushalmi explains it as an allusion to every individual Jew. (The Talmud there relates that a certain gentile once dreamed that he had swallowed a star; it transpired that he had killed a Jew, for the Jews are likened to stars.)
These two interpretations are related, for within every single Jew there is a spark of Mashiach.
Footnote 8: Maaser sheni 4:6 (in Talmud bavli)
I vote ctlawyers comment as the most sensible in this page, and Damoshes as the funniest. Further questions will be addressed at my next opportunity. Arso, you sure you canโt find a source for what youโre saying about the Maharal like the many you ask I bring? I saw online on a frum site, a contemporary book written ostensibly proving that the Zohar is no good. You can find many ridiculous things online.
There was a nigle source for the spark of Moshiach- I donโt remember offhand, but will be happy to try and locate it again. It was a mefaresh on parshas bilamTo DaMoshe
There was a popular book “Men are from Mars, women are from Venus.” We should adapt that, “Normal Jews are from earth, Lubavichets are from Atzilus (yechida)
To ctlawyer
Lubavichers are Jews but their religion is ‘t Judaism
CS: “These two interpretations are related”
Who said? They could very easily be two different interpretations of the same possuk. But aside from that, where is the Yerushalmi on that possuk that it refers to Mashiach? I did a search and I could not find it.
Re my claims about the yichus of the Maharal, for which you (fairly!) requested sources: as it seems we are not allowed to post links here, I will do the best I can to send you to the source. If you go to hebrewbooks and find book number 26654 (ืฆืคืื ืืช ืฉื ื ื ืืืื ืื) there on pages 70 and 71 there is a discussion about the Maharal’s yichus, with the author concluding that there is no source that the Maharal was descended from David Hamelech, and that some of the alleged sources are in fact clearly fictional.
Again, we must disagree
I posted in opposition to your sweeping statement that we all agree Chabad isnโt JudaismI explained why I believe it is merely a variation in how Judaism is practiced.
You come back with a pronouncement that the religion of those Jews known as Lubavitcher is not Judaism.
Ever since the Destruction of the First Beit HaMikdash and exile there have been variations in how Judaism is practiced and how it has evolved.
Surely the Judaism of 1938 Yemen and Vilna were far different from each other.
>>>>>>>>>โฌ>>>>>>>>>
BTW
An anecdote:
Lubavitcher and Chabad (modern 770 movement) are not synonymous.I grew up in New Haven, CT
There was a shul named Sheveth Achim Anshei Lubavitcher. It was not composed of Chassidim, but people (and descendants) of Jews who came from the town of Lubavitz (sp?)
They davened Nusach HaAri, but did not follow the Chabad Luach. (No dropping Tachanun because some Rebbe got out of jail, etc.)In about 1950 that shul merged with a Litvish shul becoming Bikur Cholim Sheveth Achim. The Litvish got their name first, but davening Nusach HaAri continued into the 21st century
To CT
I object your assertion that it’s my opinion that Chabad is not a valid expression of Judaism. I have rock solid arguments. Lubavichers believe that the Rebbe was a Novi. They beliwve that he ran/runs the world. They believe that he is/ was god clothed in human form.They believe he is/was Moahiach. Moerover you presented no legitimate arguments to support the notion that Chabad is simply a variant of Judaism. All you said is that Chabad doesany nice things and provides essential services. I agree with that statwment but the issue is with their belief system.
To CS
Have you found time in your busy schedule to answer my question. Until you do it’s checkmate.
Arso- Iโm sorry for confusion- my two posts were posted out of order.
If you reread, you will see that the Yerushalmi interprets the posuk as referring to every Jew, while others interpret it as referring to Moshiach. There is another outside source The Rebbe often brings which says that any Torah interpretations on the same words are related. I donโt remember it offhand but can post the next time I see it. Hence from the above, the Rebbe concludes that the connection is that every Jew possesses a spark of Moshiach which is why the same words refer to both.
Thanks for posting your source. Iโll look into it iyH. I saw something interested last night regarding how matrilineal lives are ok- because apparently Rebbi was descended from Dovid HaMelech through his mother. Iโm still waiting to see the source inside myself. Will keep you posted if of interest iyH
Ctlawyer- you donโt have to worry about qwerty and Chabad too much. He davens in a Chabad shul and is an avid admirer of rabbi Zajac, a Chabad rabbi in California. He loves the Rebbes Torah too as well. Unfortunately, because he takes lashon hara about Chabad at face value, heโs chosen to believe some misinterpretations by outsiders of Chabad teachings.
Therefore he enjoys spending free time as a holy warrior against Chabad.Of course if he really believed the drivel he writes against us, he wouldnโt have so many close personal associations with Chabad. I think heโs in it for the fun.
Qwerty feel free to correct on any of the above
- Sorry qwerty for the delay. If you wish to understand the whole topic of Nevuah returning before Moshiach, I can refer you to the sicha of parshas shoftim 5751. Of course donโt just learn the sicha, but look up the copious footnotes on every page of sources. You can ask any of your Chabad rabbi friends to learn it with you, but really, you can learn it with anyone who can learn sources inside. Of course Iโd love to hear your reaction when youโre finished. Do keep us posted!ย personal dig edited
To CS
I will not address any comment you make until you answer my challenge. Provide evidence that the Rebbe was a Novi otber than,”Because he said he is.”
CS: “I saw something interested last night regarding how matrilineal lives are ok”
Ok for what? For being a king? I don’t think so. And if yes, then chances are that every Yid who is not a Ger is descended from David Hamelech and fit to be king/Mashiach.
“personal dig edited”
You mods are great… but why edit the juiciest parts?
It wasnโt meant as a personal dig- qwerty has posted many times that he cannot understand Hebrew sources. I think itโs not nice youโre taking a fact of life and pinning it as a personal dig on my end. Assuming thatโs what you were referring to
To CS
Very convincing. You offer as proof that Nevuah can come before Moshiach arrives from a Sichah of the Rebbe. So again you’re using circular logic. We know the Rebbe is a Novi becahse he said he’s a Novi. And we know the Rebbe is Moshuach because the Rebbe said he’s Moshiach. When Hasjem sent Moshe initially he asked Hashem to give him a sign that the elders would accept that he was sent by G-d. If Hasjem spoke to the Rebbe he wpd have given him a similaf sign. But of course he had no such sign. Therefore I’ll reiterate rhere is no proof for any of Chabad’s preposterous claims other than the fact that you trust whatever the Rebbe said. As for your comments I don’t recall praising the Rebbe’s Torah but he certainly had amazing Yediyah’s on Rashi. This said he also rejected explicitly Gemaras in favor of his ideas and that’s unconscionable
CS
I learned the Sicha Parshat Shoftim .
and that only proves qwerty right .
After learning that Sicha it is clear that Habad are different to mainstream Judaism . Not in practice .
Not in feel .
But in theology .
They have a different Navi , a different God . a different Mashiach . They live in a different era .
Theirs is an era where no avoda is needed anymore .
Theirs is an era of post – first generation of the geoula.All while our Nevi’im are exactly the same as they were for the last 2 thousand yrs, the same God we worshipped the last 4 thousand yrs . [not one who was mitlabesh in a guf]
We are still in the same galut as the last 1900 some yrs .
Nice people . Worthwhile people . Quality people . Mesirut nefesh people .
but …… with a total different theology .
Sadly so .
So qwerty is friends with them because of their qualities . Which is correct.
But criticizes them for their Theological Schism . Which is also correct .
Not a contradiction.
Not at all .Qwerty, as I’m reading your posts, I keep thinking of great arguments and proofs to answer your questions.
However, I keep stopping myself from answering, because I remember that every attack that you wrote here had PAGES of discussions in previous threads. I already wrote many posts proving that nevuah is possible nowadays (although I never tried to prove or convince you that the Rebbe is a novi – I don’t think that convincing someone of deep religious convictions is easy on public anonymous forums), proving that the Rebbe wasn’t the only one in history who said extreme-sounding statements about tzaddikim (although I never tried explaining you what the Rebbe’s statement actually meant – I don’t think that explaining deep ideas in Torah and mysticism is easy on public anonymous forums, though I did refer you to a shiur from YY Jacobson on the subject), and much much more.
Despite my hundreds of posts to you, you would still insist that I always ignored your questions (and of course, you insisted on ending every question with “checkmate”.)
Thus, rehashing all the proofs etc. would make me similar to the prisoners in the story that I mentioned above.
I think Moschiach will mint bitcoins.
I completely agree.
As a matter of fact, I will ONLY accept a Moshiach who mines bitcoins (to answer all those who have kept asking me who I would accept as Moshiach).
Qwerty which Gemaras did he reflect in favor of his ideas? You mean in an area where Kabbala differs? Or a different Gemara shows it differently? Curious what youโre talking about
Qwerty, Iโm sorry, I didnโt realize you havenโt seen a sicha before. A sicha has many many footnotes frum many other sources in the Torah, think of it as a compilation of Torah sources on the given subject with the Rebbe tying it all together and bringing out a few chiddushim, as any Gaon would do. I referenced the sicha because youโll see the many sources on
the topic you mentioned, and you can look it all up yourself. Opening a sicha does not mean that youโre just reading and believing something thatโs all the Rebbes imagination. Sorry I had thought you were familiar.Btw regarding a sign, during the period of the gulf war the Rebbe referenced the yalkut shimoni talking about how in the year Melech HaMoshiach will reveal himself, the Persian king will start up with the Aram king (the Rebbe saw this as the American king) and the Jews will be scurrying in fear (as they were in light of the threats of Saddam Hussein- which only recently did we see just how big they were), and Moshiach will tell them, humble ones, the time of your redemption has arrived!
The Rebbe told everyone who asked thereโs nothing to fear and you should not leave EY, and indeed the war turned out the way the Rebbe said. And he was the only one saying so, publicly assuring everyone. Yeah that was one of the things I was talking about in 5751
You have change your words, you know speak of a valid expression. When I challenged your assertion hat we all believed Chabad is not Judaism.
BTW, not ALL Lubavitchers believe everything you claim they do.
I know some who do not espouse the Melech HaMoshiach mantra.I will not paint them with a broad brush as you do
To CS
The Gemara in Cheilek quotes Rav Simai who said that the final redemption will replicate Yetzias Mitzrayim Just as in the former only 2 of 600k left Egypt and entered EY so too at the final redemption only one of 300k will be redeemed. The Rebbe rejected this as I’m sure you know.
Menachem, finally we found something to agree on! And bitcoin should to be traceable to David HaMelech.
To CT
Do you agree that those Lubavichers who do espouse what I enimerated are not practicing Judaism?
Second after the tunnel story Zev.Brenner interviewed a number of Lubavichers. Zev mentioned that there’s a dospute between the Mesjichistas and mormal Jews. One Lubavicher told him that 99.99 percent of Lubavichers believe that the Rebbe is Moshiach but many lie and deny it to fool mainstream Kews imtp thinking tbey’re normal. You can find the program on line and hear what the guy said.To CS
I should have made my point more clearly. Hashem gave Moshe signs that had been passed down from Yaakov and Yosef. He brought those signs to the Gedolei Hador and they recognized him as the Goel Tzedek. The Rebbe made up signs that he gave to his followers. If the Rebbe actually had communication with Hashem then he should have gone yo the Gedolim to get Haskamah. It’s quite obvious why he didm’t choose that tack,ย edited
CS: “The Rebbe told everyone who asked thereโs nothing to fear and you should not leave EY, and indeed the war turned out the way the Rebbe said.”
That is not true for two reasons that even I know of.
1. R Chaim Kanievsky also said nothing will happen, and he had a note on his door “I did not seal a room”. There were also others who predicted that no great damage will be done.
2. The Lubavicher rebbe clearly said that NOT ONE YID will be killed (maybe he said harmed, but let’s leave it at killed) and one Yid was R”L killed due to a scud missile attack. Actually, I just looked it up and I discovered that the official Israeli tally is TWO people killed by missiles and another at least 11 others through various side issues, such as gas masks being incorrectly worn, heart attacks and incorrect use of atropine (which was to be used in cases of poison gas). So not only was it not nevuah, it was not even correct. Unless you want to say that when he said that not one Yid will be killed, he mean that there will be more than one ๐
If you look in the last perek of Hilchos Yesodei Hatorah in the Rambam – the favorite sefer used by Lubavich to “prove” that their rebbe is Mashiach – you will find the following:
ืืืืจืื ืื ืื ื ืืื ืืชื ืืืืจ ืืืจืื ืืขืชืืืื ืืืืืช ืืืื ืืืืจ ืืื ื ืืืืื ืืจืืืช ืืืืืื ืืืจืื ืื ืื ืืืืื, ืืืคืืื ื ืคื ืืืจ ืงืื ืืืืืข ืฉืืื ื ืืื ืฉืงืจ, ืืื ืืื ืืืจืื ืืืื ืืืื ืืขืื ืื ื ื ืืืSo even if “a small matter” – I personally do not consider Yidden being killed R”L a small matter – he is a false novi!
Furthermore, in the next halacha the Rambam writes:
ืืืืจืื ืื ืื ื ืืื ืืชื ืืืืจ ืืืจืื ืืขืชืืืื ืืืืืช ืืืื ืืืืจ ืืื ื ืืืืื ืืจืืืช ืืืืืื ืืืจืื ืื ืื ืืืืื, ืืืคืืื ื ืคื ืืืจ ืงืื ืืืืืข ืฉืืื ื ืืื ืฉืงืจ, ืืื ืืื ืืืจืื ืืืื ืืืื ืืขืื ืื ื ื ืืืSo even had his prediction re the Gulf War been correct (which, I reiterate, it wasn’t) that is not enough to consider him a navi.
“Do you agree that those Lubavichers who do espouse what I enimerated are not practicing Judaism?
Second after the tunnel story Zev.Brenner interviewed a number of Lubavichers. Zev mentioned that thereโs a dospute between the Mesjichistas and mormal Jews. One Lubavicher told him that 99.99 percent of Lubavichers believe that the Rebbe is Moshiach but many lie and deny it to fool mainstream Kews imtp thinking tbeyโre normal. You can find the program on line and hear what the guy said.”Qwerty, you need to calm down. You’re clearly getting excited, as can be seen from the number of typos!
To YB: You say youโve learned the shoftim 51 sicha. Did you look up the sources quoted and see the context etc? Ie Did you learn it properly? Secondly, are there things there that are wrong/ misquoted etc? Yes Chabad are unique: we focus our Avodas Hashem on building Him a home Heโll be comfortable with, in this world, which will be revealed to all when Moshiach comes. This is a Medrash Tanchuma, brought as a central theme in Tanya and elaborated on by all the Rebbeim after. This isnโt wrong, itโs just different.
You reference the Rebbes statement that Avodas habirurim has been finished. Have you asked any Lubavitcher what that means? Or at least looked up the footnotes? The Rebbe elaborates on many themes throughout the Sichos, and refers to them in shorthand in others. Thatโs why me and my husband each have a weekly kevius of a year of Sichos weโre learning week after week so we can properly understand the depth, and see the build up of concepts. It sounds like you just opened the sicha to confirm to yourself that Chabad is crazy, read a few lines or maybe the whole sicha with a cursory reading, and slammed it shut- mission accomplished.
Thereโsa saying of the Rebbe Maharash: the only one fooled by a fool is a fool, and whatโs the accomplishment of fooling a fool?
Feel free to correct if the above is not as stated.
Btw I can agree with qwerty on yedios in rashi:
The Rashi Sichos are quite spectacular:
The Rebbe lists up to 20 questions on a Rashi.He gives the answers given by various mefarshei Rashi.
He shows how the answers given are inadequate.
Then he gives one answer which shows the Rashi in a completely different light. It also automatically answers all the up to 20 questions listed in the beginning.
Sometimes it stops there, but my favorite is when he adds ืืื ื ืฉื ืชืืจื- the lesson for life that The Rebbe found within the same Rashi.
My favorite (I havenโt learned all of them) is the 6-8 page sicha on the seemingly very simple Rashi: ืืขืฉื ืื: ืื ืืฉืื ืืืช ืงืืืฉื and the incredible horaah bachayim at the end.
Qwerty, the Rebbe did maintain geula will be for every Jew. Firstly, I donโt know if youโre aware, but even a nevuah that is negative can be nullified if people do teshuva etc. Secondly, the Rebbe certainly had sources of his own to prove the opposite. If youโre really interested, you can find the topic listed in the sefer ืฉืขืจื ืืืืื- ืืืืช ืืืฉืื. It should just the relevant sources as well.
The Rebbe never said, the Gemara says this but I know better cvs.
Arso, interesting admit Rav Chaim Kanievsky. I saw a newspaper clipping from the period- it ran a headline on the Rebbes claim- it didnโt say several Torah leaders including the Lubavitcher Rebbe claimโฆ
Was he public about it?
Secondly, you have homework now: (Iโve saved mine from the other day): 1. Proof that The Rebbe said not one Jew will die
2. Proof for your claim that indeed two Jews died directly from the rockets
Qwerty,
โI should have made my point more clearly. Hashem gave Moshe signs that had been passed down from Yaakov and Yosef. He brought those signs to the Gedolei Hador and they recognized him as the Goel Tzedek. The Rebbe made up signs that he gave to his followers. If the Rebbe actually had communication with Hashem then he should have gone yo the Gedolim to get Haskamah. Itโs quite obvious why he didmโt choose that tackโ
Qwerty, The Rebbe wasnโt trying to prove anything to anyone. As I said thereโs a three stage process, and at this point, The Rebbe was only interested on letting those strongly connected to him, know. The stage of Moshiach Vadai hasnโt happened yet. The preliminary stage is about the people deciding who is a candidate, for Moshiach with their Rabbanim etc.
BH we are blessed with many towering Rabbanim- I have a personal connection with 6 myself. Rav Schochet who just passed away is irreplaceable: he had some level of ruach hakodesh himself- he was instructed by The Rebbe to give brochos on Shmini Atzeres every year- and in his brochos- would actually tell them how their year would go, and he would deal with things that others didnโt feel they had a handle on- say- people who were possessed but otherwise mentally well, and interpreting dreams. Obviously in addition to all the regular stuff.
Btw regarding Rav Kanievsky, itโs well known he claimed to have met Moshiach. Having heard that he was a serious Talmid Chacham, Gaon etc I take that at face value. Iโm curious if all the scoffers here scoff at their own Rabbi too? And say he must be arrogant and delusional cvs to say such a thing? Or they only scoff when it comes to lubavitch? I donโt think anyone demanded proof or outside sources to prove he want some sort of delusional rasha etc as a few here insinuate.
He said what he said and is up to you to believe him. You believe him if you know him to be a legit person. Same here
Rav Chaim sayingย he met moshiach is not ‘same here’ to claiming he is moshiach.
To CS
“The Rebbe wasn’t trying to prove anything to anyone.” Exactly and, in fact, he never proved anything to anyone and that’s why maimstream Judaism rejects all of Chabad’s ridiculous assertions.
To ARSo
I assure you that I am in full control of my senses. The reason for the typos is that my computer broke and I’m writing from my phone. I apologize for the errors but the points are still relatively clear.
To CT
Still waiting for your answer. Remember we’re not in secular court where lawyers use their shenanigans to win. We are in Hashem’s court and it’s all about the truth.
Editedย
CS, it’s not “well known” about R’ Chaim zt”l. It was one person who gave an interview, who claimed that R’ Chaim had told him that he has had conversations with Mashiach.
Arso, about the Gulf War, you made a mistake. R’ Chaim didn’t say nothing would happen in Israel. He said it specifically about Bnei Brak, not the entire Israel.
CS: R’ Chaim was probably the greatest talmud chacham in the past century. His life was on a totally different level than anyone else – he lived in a different world. His entire life was only Torah, nothing else. His father, the Steipler, said straight out that R’ Chaim was a bigger masmid than he was (I believe it’s written in the book A Tale of Two Worlds). He had the entire Torah on his fingertips. There are many stories about miracles that happened with him (such as the famous grasshopper story.) When you say, “Having heard that he was a serious Talmid Chacham, Gaon etc I take that at face value,” you are grossly underestimating who and what R’ Chaim was.
@CS
Yes I learned the sources too .
What is missing here an acknowledgement from the Habad side that there were two colossal u – turns in habad theology in the last 40 – 50 years .
Countless pages of discussion and all there is , a total and pointed void .
The habad side avoids any honest discussion of their two major theological u turns .
They will change topics .
They will sing songs .
They will blame other streams of similar u turns [although they never happened]
But they will keep on ignoring their turns .
They do not realize that their ne’emanut in these matters is dipping under the freezing point and that their position is rendered untenable .
Until they will face these matters head on .
In a candid way .
Open and honest .Arso I looked up ืฆืคืื ืืช ืฉื ื on Hebrew books as you suggested. No such sefer there.
Mod: โRav Chaim saying he met moshiach is not โsame hereโ to claiming he is moshiach.โ
Of course not, but it seems the problem here is that people donโt believe anyone saying anything out of the ordinary, and think that if they do, they must be delusional, arrogant and fooled their followers. Hence my bringing in Rav Chaim Kanievsky, the Sar HaTorah (better DaMoshe?) of the Litvish world. As far as I know, it isnโt common to claim to have met Moshiach, and he has passed away since. So Iโm curious how people take that- the same ones who are so incredulous about Chabad.
Apples and orangesย
Just for everyoneโs info: taking a public stance
comes with liability. My father was a Bochur during the gulf war, and the lubavitch bochurim would go to the rooftops during sirens and watch the scuds explode. The Rebbe promisedโฆForgot to say a gutte voch from my locality
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