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DaMoshe > Instead of answering, the Rebbe sang a song, and their questions disappeared.
Now I understand why so many times, when I would ask a question of a Chabad Rav, he would break out in a nigun. But either, they were not holding by Alter Rebbe’s level or I am not at the level of Talmidei Shklov, my questions did not disappear.
> questions are a lack of understanding.
Are you sure?
> questions come from klipa
Who said “Aiekah”?
To the group
It’s worth noting that Chabad routinely refers to the Rebbe as the Moshe Rabbeinu Hador. Moshe shunned every honor. When Hashem told him to redeem Israel he begged that Aaron be theessenger. In contrast the Rebbe tried to convince his followers that he’s Moshiach.
This thread (beginning with the tunnel incident and continuing with the perpetual discussion about the Rebbe being Moshiach) reminds me of this story that I recently read:
In a certain country the government had to keep the prisoners busy, and therefore they would be put to work every day all day.
On one floor, the job for the prisoners was to replace buttons on army uniforms, and on the other prisoners were in charge of removing buttons from old unusable uniforms to give to those putting buttons.
After a couple weeks, there was no more work left to do for the army, and the warden was worried that riots would break out if the prisoners were bored, so he came up with a brilliant idea.
Every day, the clothes would move from one floor to the other, some would put buttons and some would remove, on the same army suits… and that’s how they kept busy week after week, year after year….
sechel, the idea that not understanding a Gemara is due to klipos, and that a niggun can remove them is absolutely ridiculous. The way to understand a Gemara is to toil away at it, learn it again and again, looking through different meforshim, and reaching an understanding. Here’s a story about understanding a Gemara, which I heard from R’ Bender:
There was a Rebbe in Torah v’Daas named R’ Yosef Levitin. When he was a bachur, he and his chavrusah were stuck on a particular sugyah in Bava Basra. R’ Yosef had a question that they just couldn’t find an answer to. They toiled and toiled away at it, but couldn’t find anything to answer it. He went to sleep that night, still thinking about it.
The next morning, he came in with a huge smile. He told his chavrusah that the Rosh Yeshiva zt”l, R’ Shlomo Heiman, had come to him in a dream, and told him to look in the Ri Migash. He got up, washed his hands, said Birchas haTorah, and went to check, Sure enough, there was his question, and the Ri Migash gave an answer.
In Torah v’Daas, in the library, there is a Ri Migash with a handwritten note in the margin, saying “the Rosh Yeshiva came to me in a dream last night, and told me to look here.”When we toil away in learning, Hashem will help us find the answers. Quick fixes, like singing songs, are not the way to understand learning. The whole idea is crazy. This is just another thing that shows why chassidus (at least the way you learn it) is not a legitimate form of Judaism.
To the group
After a rather lengthy hiatus Menachem Shmei decides to weivh in. He has nothing substantive to say so he tries to make light of tbe criticisms directed as his dubious brand of Judaism. But sorry, no one is buying it. This has been a very productive thread becauae there have been many contributors. We are all united Chabad is not Judaism.
To DaMoshe
Your story was beautiful and illustrates that the only thing that matters to Hashem is the Torah. To that point I’d like to share the following. I learn Gemara using Artscroll. Occasionally I get stuck so I go online for help. My main source is Rabbi Avraham Zajac Chabad of La Cienega CA. He’s a giant Tal.id Chacham and a tremendous Baal Masbir. If Lubavichers would devote their time to legitimate Torah study instead of twisting Chazal to prove that yhe Rebbe is Moshiach they would discover what our religion is all about.
Just responding in order here:
Gadolhadofi:โ So the rest of us are essentially worshiping a golden calf since we donโt accept the Rebbe, ztโl, who was niftar 30 years ago, as mashiach?
How fitting, since Klal Yisrael views those who believe so to be idol worshipers.โ
No cvs, first of all, The Rebbe was mainly revealed to Chassidim, not the world at large (thereโs 3 stages: 1) ืืืืืืขืื 2. ืืืื ืืืืืืช ืืณ 3. ืืืืืื ืืื)
Secondly, itโs not avoda zara for those who are failing the test, but the point is that we need enough people to pass. And itโs unfortunate to be on the losing side. Again this has nothing to do with the velt at large.
โAlso, what is the kabalistic significance that 770 was allegedly an illegal abortion clinic before being purchased by chabad?โ
No idea. Ishapcha of the highest order I suppose.
Dear Menachem,
Great comparison! Except that they had to bring the clothing to the other floor….
Menachem, had the prisoners only sang while they were working, they could have become the gedolei hador!
Qwerty
โSo youโre saying that the Rebbe has been functioning as Moshiach for the last 33 years. The first three years he was alive and the last 30 as a dead Moshiach. So this will go on for another 7 years at which point he will be revealed as Moshiach for all the world. What will you say if year 40 comes and goes and heโs still interred?โ
Itโs a test of Emuna, I hope geula comes far before that. With Emuna, we donโt decide when a test begins or ends. Btw Rashi mentions 45+ yearsโฆ but other sources just mention a test. Iโm not looking for the latest date, I want the full on Geula to come now!!
Arso:
โ You claim that the Lubavicher rebbe fits the Rambamโs criteria, one of which is Mashiach will be a king. So why didnโt anyone โ not even the greatest of chassidim โ recite the beracha one recites when seeing a king? The obvious, and only, answer is that they didnโt consider him a king, and for a very simple reasonโฆ he wasnโt.Btw I believe that the expression ืืื ืืืื ืจืื ื does not appear anywhere in Chazal. It is a paraphrasing of something said by an Amora in Gittin 62a, and according to that all Rabbonon are included. Nonetheless we do not find anyone, including the Amora who made the statement, reciting the beracha because even he did not mean that they had the actual status of kings. Proof being that Chazal say that a Rav can be mochel on has kavod but a king cannot. So clearly it is allegorical (that may be the wrong word, but you probably know what I mean).โ
We definitely see the Rebbe as king in many ways- such as complete bitul to doing what the Rebbe says. Also, when a Rav pasken a something that creates reality, even if the world says something different.
Bar kochba definitely wasnโt annointed- there was no Sanhedrin then. But the Rambam calls him king, and candidate for Moshiach so you clearly see what kind of โkingโ the Rambam was referring to. (He wasnโt even accepted by most Rabbanim- so kvodo aino mochul didnโt apply there either.)
Arso:
โ CS: โ2) thatโs not in the Rambam s criteria of defining bchezkas MoshiachโWhat are you referring to?โ
Simple. If you had to wait for Sanhedrin to verify yichus, the Rambams idea of bchezkas moshiach wouldnโt be relevant (besides itโs not even moshiach vadai.) also, your Sanhedrin criterion isnโt mentioned at all here in Rambam
โCS: โ3) did you look up all the sources?โ
I looked up ALL the sources you gave from Chazal.โ Wonderful. You may have benefitted seeing the Rebbes sources to see how they came up.
โI have said it before, but โBeis Mashiach has the gematria of 770โ is so childish that itโs cringeworthy.
Did you know โ this is something I heard 50 years ago โ that Chamor Bli Daas not only has the initials Chabad but that it too has the gematria of 770? If you want to prove things from childish gematriyos then be my guest.โAnyone can make up anything in gematria. If something is true, gematria brings it out as an extra point. Itโs not a starting point. Remember the trump moshiach gematrias? Ridiculous. I didnโt make these up. Bochurim were quoting it in 770, and it only became significant to me when the Rebbe referenced it.
Qwerty
โ CS has clarified the Chabad position. In 1991 a delegation of Lubavichers approached the Rebbe and asked him to accept the Meashichas. He smiled which indicated his assent. At that point he became Moshiach and in seven years heโll come back to life to declare himself Moshiach for all the Jews.โNot exactly. Firstly, there is no one Chabad position. This is a test of Emuna and various people approach it differently. Secondly, The Rebbe didnt just smile on one occasion – it was more said/done than that. Thirdly, thereโs no date. Hopefully, Geula will arrive today.
Qwerty: another slight correction: there was no pressuring from the Rebbe or the Chassidim on this issue. The Rebbe left it open for whoever wanted to accept (there is no king without a nation) and the Chassidim never pressured The Rebbe to declare himself Moshiach, rather they responded.
โ Itโs worth noting that Chabad routinely refers to the Rebbe as the Moshe Rabbeinu Hador. Moshe shunned every honor. When Hashem told him to redeem Israel he begged that Aaron be theessenger. In contrast the Rebbe tried to convince his followers that heโs Moshiach.โ
Moshe initially didnโt want to accept, but by the time he was supposed to split the Yam Suf, let alone
be the only one on Har Sinai with Hashem, he accepted his mission.Same with The Rebbeโฆ
Sorry if I could just come in. No Lubavitcher school starts a niggun when someone has a question. A niggun of a tzadik led by a tzadik can do that in exceptional situations. On the contrary Chabad means we engage with the mind.
Questions do come from a lack of clarity. That is why in nigle sources, which deal with clarifying good/ evil etc. thereโs many more questions than in Nistar, which is only about achdus Hashem (no matters involving tumah etc).
In golus, we ask many questions. In geula, we will learn in a way of seeing- things will be much clearer.
However, if one does have a question, obviously ask, or, ain habayshon lameid. Asking is great!
To CS
I appreciate the fact that you respond to my comments in a non-confrontational manner. I also appreciate that you understand that none of your beliefs resonate at all with non-Lubavichers. You think that we’ve failed the test by not accepting your false Messiah, but you will have a much greater test which is to accept the real one. As for the comparison of the Rebbe and Moshe Rabbeinu. No human being who has ever lived can be compared to the greatest man the world has ever known.
Regarding the question conversation: I donโt think Iโve done it justice. See igeres hakodesh siman chof vov (post of Tanya. Youโll need explanation- you can find lessons of Tanya on it)
To the group
The Gemara says that there were three great people Dovid, Avraham and Moshe. Dovid called himself a worm. Avraham said he’s dirt and ashes. Moshe was the greatest, he said he’s nothing. What did the Rebbe say about himself? I’m the Gadol Hador. Compare the Rebbe to Moshe Rabbeinu? I don’t think so.
A cursory and openminded read of habad adherents’ comments on this page ,bearing in mind the [r]evolution[s] in in habad theology during the last 50 – 60 years , will inorexably force the reader to accept Morenu Rambam’s saying :
HASECHEL SHAMASH LEHARATSON
Whatever the the ratson wants , the sechel stands ready to do its bidding , like a true servant .
With true elasticity ….โBar kochba definitely wasnโt annointed- there was no Sanhedrin then. But the Rambam calls him king, and candidate for Moshiach so you clearly see what kind of โkingโ the Rambam was referring to.โ
Correction, bar Kochba minted coins during his lifetime so they can be used (like the United States government) whereas the Rebbe has not (not even his โRebbe dollarsโ were minted by him)
CS: “thereโs 3 stages: 1) ืืืืืืขืื 2. ืืืื ืืืืืืช ืืณ 3. ืืืืืื ืืื”
Valid sources (by that I mean not something said by the Lubavicher rebbe) please.
“We definitely see the Rebbe as king in many ways”
Correct. YOU see it in many ways, but the Rambam does not. Nor does the entire Torah-world, at least, not those who are under stong Lubavich influence.
I’ll ask you again, why did not one Lubavicher chassid EVER recite the berocho made when seeing a king when they saw their rebbe? Clearly, not even Lubavichers held that he was king according to halacha. If you can’t give a valid answer to that, you are simply contradicting yourself, or at worst lying, when you say he was a king.
As to R Akiva and Bar Koziba, I don’t know how it worked but if the Rambam lists criteria, and he then says that R Akiva consider Bar Koziba a king, then he must have fit those criteria. Something which your rebbe most certainly did not.
“Bar kochba definitely wasnโt annointed- there was no Sanhedrin then.”
Ah, but there was. According to many sources the Sanhedrin ceased to exist in the year 4185 (425 CE) which is loooong after R Akiva was martyred.
“your Sanhedrin criterion isnโt mentioned at all here in Rambam”
But all the quotes you cite from Rashi in Doniel, from Rabbeinu Bachya and others are, right? Can you really not see that you just pick and choose what to count and what not to count.
I also note that you have not addressed the explicit Rambam that says that whoever claims that Mashiach will not descend from Shlomo Hamelech is a kofer Bashem c”v, and the yichus of the Maharal (once again, there is no proof that the L rebbe was ben achar ben to him) was through the Nesi’im in E”Y who were descended, the gemoro tells us, from Shefatya, Shlomo Hamelech’s brother.
“it [that Beis Mashiach has a gematria of 770] only became significant to me when the Rebbe referenced it”
Fair enough, because you believe every thing that he said regardless of how meaningless it is. But for you to expect us to take something as childish as that seriously, indicates that you are so brainwashed that you can’t even believe that others have a totally different way of thinking than you.
“On the contrary Chabad means we engage with the mind.”
Did you perhaps leave prefix “dis” of one of the words in the above?
Qwerty
โI appreciate the fact that you respond to my comments in a non-confrontational manner.โThank you
โ I also appreciate that you understand that none of your beliefs resonate at all with non-Lubavichers. You think that weโve failed the test by not accepting your false Messiah, but you will have a much greater test which is to accept the real one. As for the comparison of the Rebbe and Moshe Rabbeinu. No human being who has ever lived can be compared to the greatest man the world has ever known.โ
Firstly, I donโt think this test applies to you. This is for Lubavitchers whom The Rebbe was addressing. If youโd like a test, daven like you mean it when the nusach hatefilla asks for Moshiachโs coming, on a daily basis. Is that a good challenge? Maybe youโre past that already- if so donโt just daven for geula but for moshiach.
Rashi (Hosheia 3:4-5)
Rโ Shimon bar Yochai said: โThe Jewish nation despised three things in the days of Rechovam, 1) the Kingdom of Heaven, 2) the Kingdom of Dovid, and 3) The Bais Hamikdosh.โ Said Rโ Shimon ben Menasya: โThe signs of Redemption will not be shown to Israel until they โreturn and seek all three of themโ.โGood?
Also the Zohar says thereโs an extension of Moshe in every generation. Obviously we hold off the Rebbe as such. Youโre welcome to follow whatever Torah leader you like
yb
Youโd do well to read the rashi towards the end of last weeks parsha which spells out how one should relate to their Torah leadersโฆJust curious: if I was aiming for gan Eden thereโs at least one gemara that says that as long as Iโm over 50% of doing the right thing, Iโm good to go.
Thatโs a pretty low bar. Iโm hoping everybody here reached that at least soon after bar or Bas Mitzvah.
One of the many things I love about Chabad is that it shows you how low you are, how much work you need to do, but yet how high you can reach, in an empowering way.
So, the starting point of real Avodas Hashem is to become a beinoni (someone who controls their every thought speech and action to be within the boundaries of Mutar etc) (otherwise you canโt truly rule your heart as a result of being a rasha.) But donโt worry. Even if youโre -30 steps, as long as youโre growing thatโs great and youโll be provided with international motivation and encouragement, credits due to Chassidus, to keep working your way up. Once you get there, itโs a whole new life, you donโt need to live with guilt etc. And it just gets better. Oh I forgot, the bar was upped to becoming at least a low level tzadik (someone who actually experiences love of Hashem palpably and disgust of evil) because our Nefesh habehamis is more refined today.
Honestly is there any other derech in Yiddishkeit today which expects so much (so you never feel done) and yet is so empowering and positive? Iโd love to hear. See sources. Peopleโs experiences etc
To yankel berel
What took you so long? It’s great that you’re back in the game. I will never forget how you defended me against the mob because I was guilty of a sin equal to AZ, Gilui Arayos and murder watching TV. Obviously we can’t save Chabad. The only hope is for someone like YY Jacobson to speak out but he’s toobusy saving us from NK
> bar Kochba minted coins
I think Moschiach will mint bitcoins.
In concurrence with Qwerty613:
Most of the Torah observant world is not Lubavitch. Most of the Torah observant world does not subscribe to these fantastic claims.
The vast majority of the Torah observant world concern themselves with the Taryag Mitzvos and the Rabbinical edicts.
Why wouldn’t the Lubavitchers consider that maybe everyone else is right and they are wrong?
The everyone else are Litvishe Bnei Torah, Chassidim and the modern Orthodox crowd.
Is it reasonable that all Torah Jewry are missing the boat?
yesterday i saw a kovetz put out by a son of r’ Yitzchok Sorotzkin – a llitvak called ืืืืข ืืื ืืืืืชืื
so after 30 yrs, the litvaks are catching on, soon they will say the rebbe is moshiach!
(similar to kiruv and the way to be michanech with love, and accepting every jew, and learning muser, and emphasizing davening (and much more things) which at first was not accepted by them (big attacks on chassidim yrs ago) and over time became accepted, encouraged till everyone cant imagine otherwise.To the group
โThe Gemara says that there were three great people Dovid, Avraham and Moshe. Dovid called himself a worm. Avraham said heโs dirt and ashes. Moshe was the greatest, he said heโs nothing. What did the Rebbe say about himself? Iโm the Gadol Hador. Compare the Rebbe to Moshe Rabbeinu? I donโt think so.โ
All these ones who says theyโre nothing didnโt refuse their mission. Moshe didnโt refuse to get the Torah, Dovid didnโt refuse to become the king andโs ancestor of moshiach, Avraham didnโt refuse to start Hashemโs nation. Maybe toe confused on humility? Just as an aside, in Gemara the Amoraim weโre discussing that no one is truly humble anymore and one of them stood up and said itโs not true because heโs humble. No one scoffed. Do you know what humility is?
In any case the Rebbe never said โI am the (full in the blank)
To Sechel83
I already read the kuntrus and I’m way ahead of you. I bought my yechi yarmulka. In fact I paid ten dollars extra and had them insert Boreinu.
To CS
You don’t understand the Torah’s view of humility. Being humble doezn’t mean refusing to do what Hashem wants because you feel unworthy. Being humble means that a person accomplishes a tremendous amount but he recognizes that it’s all thanks to Hashem In 1951 the Rebbe announced he’s Moshiach. In 1962 he announced he’s god. If you think that’s humility maybe you should put away your Zohar and get a dictionary. And don’t deny that he said those things because Menache. sh.ei and Sechel 83 said that in a different thread last year.
Litvishe fellow- the whole Torah world is not missing the boat. When the geula comes along with Moshiachโs full revelation, no Jew will be left behind. For now this is still an internal lubavitch thing, probably meant to show us that Moshiach is really coming in our time and motivate us further to reshape the world in the Rebbes vision. Iโve actually never brought this up to non Lubavitchers and very rarely Lubavitchers, but seeing that this if the favorite line of discussion in this forum I would advise all Lubavitchers to simply answer, โYes. Any other questions?โ In the future
Qwerty
โBeing humble doeznโt mean refusing to do what Hashem wants because you feel unworthy. Being humble means that a person accomplishes a tremendous amount but he recognizes that itโs all thanks to HashemโExactly. So if Hashem informed the Rebbe that he has been appointed as Moshiach, and should start on his mission, and let those close to him in on it, why does that bother you that he did exactly that?
โIn 1951 the Rebbe announced heโs Moshiach. In 1962 he announced heโs god.โ
The first was not an announcement but hints given for a reason. The second is pure slander and falsehood. Sechel and Menachem Shmei did their best to explain the concept in their own ways, I think I may have explained as well- if you donโt understand it, doesnโt mean you publicly slander
To CS
Let me clarify why your comparison of the Rebbe to Moshe is specious. Moshe accepted his missions because Hashem spoke to him. In the case of the Rebbe he decided that he’s in charge. Rabbi Shlomo Cunin announced in 2008 that the Rebbe runs the world. Several Lubavichers on VIN and YWN have endorsed this by positing that the Rebbe decreed that he’s taking over and Hashem stepped aside.
Litvishe fellow: by nisyonos, numbers werenโt a factor. Chet haegel only one Shevet came through completely from all of the men. The women all passed. We donโt decide whatโs right based on numbers. We trust our Rebbe, a tremendous tzadik and Gaon etc, who was the final one in a glorious line of Chabad Rebbeim. W are not the only ones who hold of the Rebbe so- and this is well documented. If people donโt see the Rebbe that way, thereโs nothing to discuss as we have no common ground here.
Since itโs of interest, hereโs some sources to enjoy:
ot rooted in reality?
ืืฉืื ื ืืื ืื ืืกื ืืืืืจ ืื ืืื
ืืฉืจื ืืืืื ืืื’. ืืจืืขืื ืืืืฉ ืฉื ืื ื ืืกืคืื ืขื ืืฉืืื ืืขืืืื ืฉืขืชืื ืืฉืืื ื ืืืชืืกืืช ืืืจ ืฉื ืืื ืืืฉืื ืืืชืืื. ืืื ืืฆืื ื ืืืืจืฉ ืจืืช, ืืื ืืกื ืจืื ืืืืขืืจ ืืงืืืจ )ืืกืืืืงืืืฆืจืคืจืฉืชืืืืฉ(ืืืชืืกืืืื ึฐืฉืึผืึดืขืืืฉืฉื.
(ืจืฉ”ื ืื ืืื ืื, ืื)ืืฉืื ืืชืืกื ืืืืื ืืจืืฉืื
ืืืืื ืืืืื ื ืืื ืืืืืจ ืื ืืกื ืืื ืืืชืขืืช ืืช ืืขืื”ื ืืืืงืฉืืช ืืช ืืื, ืฉืื ืืฆืื ื ืืืืืืช ืืฆืจืื ืฉื ืืื ืืื ืืฉื ืืืืจ ืื ืืกื ืืื, ืืืื ืฉืืจืฉื ืจืืืชืื ื ื”ื: ืืืคืืขื ืืช ืืฉื ืืืช ืืืจื, ืืืจ ืฉืฉื ืืืฉืื ื ืืื ืืงื”ื ืืืืื ืื”ื: ืื ืฉืื ืืฆืจืืื, ืื ืืฉื ืืืืื ืืืืจื ืืืฆืจืื ืืคืืขื ืืื ืฉืืืจื ืืฉืจืื ืืฉืื ืืืฆืืื ืืืคื ื ืคืจืขื. ืืื ืืจืฉื ืืืืจืฉ ืืืืช: ืืืื ืืืื ืืฆืื, ืื ืฆืื ืื ืืื ื ืจืื ืื ืืกื ืืืืืจ ืื ืจืื, ืื ืืืื ืืจืืฉืื ื ืจืื ืืื ืืืืจ ืื ืืกื ืืื ืืืืจ ืื ืจืื ืืื. ืืืื ื ืืกื ืืื, ืจืื ืชื ืืืื ืืืืจ ืฉืืฉื ืืืฉืื, ืืื ืืื ืืืชืื ืืืคืืขื ืืช ืืฉื ืืืช ืืืจื. ืจืื ืืืืื ื”ืจ ืืืืจ ืืืจืืกืื, ืืืืืจ ืืฉืื ืคืืืขื ืืคืจืงืื ืืื. ืืื ืืืืื ืืขืชืื ืืืื ื ืืื ืืืืืจ ืื ืืกื, ืฉืืจื ืืืืื ืื ืขืชืืื
(ืจืืื ื ืืืื ืคืจ’ ืืืื ืขื’ ืื)ืืืืืช ืืืืืื ืืืืืช ืืฆืจืื ืืืจืื ืขื ืื ืื.
ื ืกืืื ืืืื
ืืื ื ืกืืื ืืืื ืฉื ืขืื ืืืืื ืฉืฉื ืืืฉืื, ืืื ืืื’ ืืืื ืืฉืื ืฆืืงืื ื, ืืื’ ื ืขืื ืืืจ ืืชืืืืช ืืืืืชื ืืืืจืฉ ืื’ ืืขืืื ืืืืื ืืฆืืืงืื ืืื”ื.
(ืชืืจืช ืืฉื ืคืจ’ ืฉืืืช)Regarding bchezkas moshiach- some Lubavitcher Rabbanim hold that the chazaka was broken by Gimmel Tammuz. Others maintain that it so holds. Both have their sources. Additionally, before Gimmel Tammuz there was a psak din signed by also non lubavitch Rabbanim on the Rebbe being Moshiach. Hereโs the kicker: itโs still active and there are activists visiting many different Rabbanim etc, going through the sources, and gathering signatures. I donโt think itโs available for the public, but I know itโs rabbi lipsh in EY whoโs one of these activists, and I reached out myself about it at some point.
I sang a niggun again and I realized it is Hillel not Moshe Metzger from Shomer Sahbbos who is Moshiach, after all he is surrounded by dozens of people daily who claim to be the real moshiach.
CS, your post starting with “Just curious” is very nice, and for a change, despite what you may think, it is not particular to Lubavich. Aside, perhaps, from aiming for titles such as beinoni and “low level tzaddik”. That is, aiming for the levels? Yes. Using that terminology and aiming for it, no.
As far as I am aware, this is the hashkafa of nearly all chareidim and other fully Torah-committed Jews. I am assuming, however, that, in true Lubavich fashion – and don’t forget that i have had tons of experience with close Lubavicher family who have never stopped trying to “convert” and inculcate me, so I know what’s going on – you were taught by your teachers and mashpiot that only Lubavich feels this way. Let me assure you, they were 100% wrong.
To QWERTY613
You are right . we cannot save habad, but we can make sure that some of their most outlandish ideas should be recognized by the overwhelming majority of our people for what they really are .I have been around for quite a while b’h , and I have witnessed it myself , how something totally beyond the pale , slowly slowly becomes accepted as the norm .
Of course thanks to the passage of time and [ve’od vehu ha ikar] relentless and persistent “ta’amula she hazaka she’eno hozeret rekam” [in the words of the late Manhig and Rebbe of Habad himself] …..
Ta’amula and party propaganda larov , as amply seen on these pages …..Btw if you want to see current stories and experiences of people with The Rebbe, you can visit rebbestory dot org. Thereโs Lubavitchers and non Lubavitchers on there alike. I just saw a new story today with someone from an anti Chabad background.
And all the great awe, respect and trust we give The Rebbe- The Rebbe, at the end of the day is only Hashemโs servant and messenger. So you can imagine the depth of understanding about Hashem that Chassidus provides. ืืืณืื ืืืจื ืจืื ืืืืจื ืฉืืื
Just for the sake of qwerty Iโll try to explain the Atzmus thing in simple terms. If you learn Tanya perek 6, it says that only something which is nullified/ batul, to Hashem can become included the category of kedusha. Chassidus teaches that Hashem Echad means that everything should realize that its true self and existence is from Hashem/ one with Hashem. The more batul and humble a person lives, the more kedusha they can channel. The Gemara also says that Hashem canโt a dwell with an arrogant person. Chassidus takes it further that there is no other existence other than Hashem (all of creation is Hashemโs speech which is one with Him from His perspective, so we just need to realize this and love this way.)
So, someone like a true Rebbe can even channel Atzmus- a person can sense this kedusha when they interact with the tzadik who has converted his yetzer hara to be another positive force (Dovid hamelech did this, and anyone who is a tzadik gamur of Tanya can too.) Really, the true existence of every yid is actually one with Hashemโs Essence, which is why we wonโt have an identity crisis when Hashem is revealed by geula, whereas goyim will.
Obviously, aโz canโt come in the picture here, because if someone speaks from their own ego etc, theyโre not channeling any kedusha in that moment. Whatโs more, theyโre clearly not what Chabad would consider a Rebbe, Rosh Bnei Yisrael, because they still have unpolished yeshus/ yetzer hara to deal with.
CS, neither you nor anyone else has responded to the following “problem” that I have mentioned at least twice:
“…the explicit Rambam that says that whoever claims that Mashiach will not descend from Shlomo Hamelech is a kofer Bashem cโv, and the yichus of the Maharal (once again, there is no proof that the L rebbe was ben achar ben to him) was through the Nesiโim in EโY who were descended, the gemoro tells us, from Shefatya, Shlomo Hamelechโs brother.”
Another thing. You wrote: “Also the Zohar says thereโs an extension of Moshe in every generation.”
Many seforim quote the Zohar as saying that there is an ispahstusa deMoshe in each generation “ืืื ื ืคืฉื ืื ืคืฉื”, i.e. in every Yid in every generation. Sure I believe that in tzaddikim the ispashtusa is either stronger or “closer to the surface”, but we all have it in us, not just one person in each generation.
To CS
You hit the nail on the head today. If it were true that Hashem communicated with the Rebbe as he did with Moshe then no one would challenge the statements co.i v out of CH. But the Rebbe dod not speak to Hashem. It’s as simple as that. As for your statement that the claim that the Rebbe is god clothed in human form is slander. Sorry, Dr. Berger quoted 8 leading rabbis from OHolei Torah who all agreed that the Rebbe is god clothed in human form You can be sure that Dr. Berger didn’t make it up. Finallg do you agree with Rabbi Cunin that the Rebbe runs the world and he will take us out of Golus.
I would like to mention that ืฉืืื ืืืืโs humility made him lose the ืืืืืช because he listened to ืื ื ืืฉืจืื and spared ืขืืืง
The same applies over here
The Rebbeโs humility made him not come out strongly against the meshichists
Qwerty your latest posts are what you have decided did or did not happen in lubavitch over Lubavitcher Chassidim.
So thereโs nothing to sayโฆ
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